07508
  1              MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION
  2          
  3                     VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT  
  4                        Volume 32
  5                             
  6              Including List of Participants
  7                             
  8        
  9                             
 10                      Hearing
 11                         
 12   Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project
 13                         
 14                    Presiding:
 15               Gerard Lecuyer, Chair
 16                    Kathi Kinew
 17                  Harvey Nepinak
 18                   Robert Mayer
 19                  Terry Sargeant
 20     
 21                Wednesday, June 9, 2004
 22                  Radisson Hotel
 23                  288 Portage Avenue
 24                   Winnipeg, Manitoba
 25       
07509
  1                  LIST OF PARTICIPANTS
  2   
  3   Clean Environment Commission:
  4   Gerard Lecuyer        Chairman
  5   Terry Sargeant        Member
  6   Harvey Nepinak        Member
  7   Kathi Avery Kinew     Member
  8   Doug Abra             Counsel to Commission
  9   Rory Grewar           Staff
 10   CEC Advisors:
 11   Mel Falk
 12   Dave Farlinger
 13   Jack Scriven
 14   Jim Sandison
 15   Jean McClellan
 16   Brent McLean
 17   Kyla Gibson
 18   
 19   Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation:
 20   Chief Jerry Primrose
 21   Elvis Thomas
 22   Campbell MacInnes
 23   Valerie Matthews Lemieux
 24   Anges Spence
 25   David Spence
07510
  1                    LIST OF PARTICIPANTS
  2    
  3   Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation:
  4   Jimmy Hunter Spence
  5   Darcy Linklater
  6   Elder Sam Dysart
  7              
  8   Manitoba Conservation:
  9   Larry Strachan
 10   Trent Hreno
 11   
 12   Manitoba Hydro:
 13   Doug Bedford, Counsel
 14   Bob Adkins, Counsel
 15   Marvin Shaffer
 16   Ed Wojczynski
 17   Ken Adams
 18   Carolyn Wray
 19   Ron Mazur
 20   Lloyd Kuczek
 21   Cam Osler
 22   Stuart Davies
 23   David Hicks
 24   George Rempel
 25   David Cormie
07511
  1                       LIST OF PARTICIPANTS
  2   Manitoba Hydro (cont'd)
  3   
  4   Alex Fleming
  5   Marvin Shaffer
  6   Blair McMahon
  7   
  8   
  9   Trapline 18
 10   Don McIvor
 11   
 12   
 13   Boreal Forest Network
 14   Don sullivan
 15   
 16   
 17   
 18   
 19   
 20   
 21   
 22   
 23   
 24   
 25   
07512
  1   
  2                             INDEX OF EXHIBITS
  3   
  4   EXHIBIT NO.                                       PAGE
  5   
  6   
  7   T18-1003:     Closing Statement of              
  8                 Trapline #18                        7552  
  9   
 10   MC-1006:      Answer to Undertaking    
 11                 MC-73, provide a copy of the provisions              
 12                 and conditions as set out in the interim             
 13                 licence for the diversion of water from              
 14                 the Churchill River to the Nelson River              
 15                 and the impoundment of water on the Rat              
 16                 River and Southern Indian Lake      7568 
 17   
 18   MC-1007:      Answer to Undertaking             
 19                 MC-74, advise what the circumstances are             
 20                 in the regulations when a licence under              
 21                 the Water Power Act is issued and what               
 22                 modifications can be made           7569
 23   
 24   
 25   
07513
  1                        INDEX OF EXHIBITS
  2   
  3   EXHIBIT NO.                                       PAGE
  4   
  5   MC-1008:      Answers to undertakings MC-75 and 
  6                 MC-76 which are as             
  7                 follows: Advise what statutes or                     
  8                 regulations or changes have taken place              
  9                 that fall under the term regulations of              
 10                 the day for the Churchill River Diversion             
 11                 Interim licence; and advise whether there             
 12                 have been any amendments to the                      
 13                 regulations since 1973               7569
 14   
 15   MC-1009:      Answer to undertaking             
 16                 MC-77, provide information regarding MMF             
 17                 locals being present at consultations to             
 18                 date under stage 2 of the consultation               
 19                 process                             7569
 20    
 21   MC-1010:      Answer to undertaking             
 22                 MWS-78, advise on the position whether               
 23                 Manitoba Hydro is meeting requirements of             
 24                 Missi Falls Licence Regime on a regular              
 25                 basis                               7570
07514
  1                      INDEX OF EXHIBITS
  2   
  3   EXHIBIT NO.                                       PAGE
  4   
  5   MC-1011:      Answer to undertaking             
  6                 MWS-79, advise if Hydro notifies Water               
  7                 Branch re adverse impacts on community of             
  8                 South Indian Lake each year         7571
  9   
 10   MH/NCN 1051:  Final submission brief of
 11                 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation
 12                 and Manitoba Hydro                  7691
 13   
 14   
 15   
 16   
 17   
 18   
 19   
 20   
 21   
 22   
 23   
 24   
 25   
07515
  1   WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9, 2004
  2   Upon commencing at 10:08 a.m.
  3   
  4               THE CHAIRMAN:  While copies of the 
  5   statement of Trapline 18 are being made, I just want 
  6   to take a moment to address an issue which was the 
  7   last issue addressed yesterday.  It referenced two 
  8   letters which had been sent to the Clean Environment 
  9   Commission in December by Mr. Vern Anderson of the 
 10   Association of Displaced Residents of South Indian 
 11   Lake.  And I did indicate yesterday that we had 
 12   responded to those two letters on January 8 and read 
 13   a portion of that letter.  
 14               We were delivered yesterday a copy of a 
 15   letter which was dated January 21, 2004 which was 
 16   from Mr. Vern Anderson of the Association of 
 17   Displaced Residents of South Indian Lake.  For some 
 18   unclear reason, this letter has never been received 
 19   at the Clean Environment Commission.  It's addressed 
 20   to me as Chairman.  Perhaps it was mistakenly 
 21   delivered to the office adjoining the Clean 
 22   Environment Commission.  We have no record of it but 
 23   we do acknowledge that this letter was delivered to 
 24   us yesterday.  And I haven't even fully read this 
 25   letter.  If it's pertinent, we will respond to it.  
07516
  1               I understand that, of course, it is not 
  2   very timely anymore but it was a letter addressed to 
  3   us in response to my own letter of January 8.  So for 
  4   whatever unexplained reason, I repeat, we did not 
  5   until yesterday, until this morning as far as myself 
  6   is concerned, have not seen this letter but it was 
  7   indeed delivered to us.  
  8               Do we have copies, Mr. Grewar, for the 
  9   Trapline 18 statement?
 10               MR. GREWAR:  They are just coming down in 
 11   a few moments, Mr. Chairman.
 12               THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.  We'll just 
 13   wait very briefly.
 14               MR. GREWAR:  I can advise for the record 
 15   at this point, Mr. Chairman, that we have now 
 16   received, as of this morning, the undertakings that 
 17   were discussed yesterday by Merrell-Ann Phare from 
 18   the Community Association of South Indian Lake.  They 
 19   are undertakings MC-73 through to MC-79 and each 
 20   undertaking has been provided.  
 21               There will be electronic versions 
 22   distributed to all the participants of those 
 23   components of the documents which can be sent 
 24   electronically.  Unfortunately, some of the 
 25   undertakings contain fairly large maps and area 
07517
  1   regional plans which cannot be easily sent 
  2   electronically at all.  
  3               So what I'm going to propose is this 
  4   afternoon, we'll assign exhibit numbers to the 
  5   according undertakings for the record and try to 
  6   provide as many of the electronic copies as we can to 
  7   all the participants and then those items which 
  8   cannot be copied and distributed will simply have to 
  9   be available for review at the Commission office.  
 10   And they will be made available immediately.  
 11               So I just wanted to give you a heads-up 
 12   on that and we will assign exhibit numbers to these 
 13   various undertakings perhaps immediately after the 
 14   break.
 15               THE CHAIRMAN:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. 
 16   Grewar.  You do not want to do that at this moment 
 17   while we're waiting?
 18               MR. GREWAR:  No, Mr. Chairman.  Although 
 19   it would be a good time to do it, unfortunately I 
 20   haven't had a chance to go through them and separate 
 21   them and assign numbers.  So it would be perhaps more 
 22   confusing than anything at this point.
 23               THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.  Mr. McIvor, 
 24   you may begin.
 25               MR. MCIVOR:  All right.  Good morning, 
07518
  1   elders, ladies and gentlemen, panel members, 
  2   Commission members, I just want to thank you for this 
  3   opportunity this morning to present on behalf of 
  4   Trapline 18 regarding the Generating Station Project 
  5   and also the Transmission Project, which is known as 
  6   Wuskwatim.  
  7               As you are aware, my brother Donald 
  8   McIvor who is a member of Pimicikamak Cree Nation, 
  9   unfortunately he couldn't attend this morning so I'll 
 10   be doing the closing on his behalf. 
 11               Firstly, just to give a little bit of 
 12   background, back in the 2002, I spent several months 
 13   working with Chief Primrose and council along with 
 14   their legal counsel in terms of promoting the 
 15   Wuskwatim project.  And my participation basically 
 16   was to coordinate and facilitate meetings on behalf 
 17   of the Chief with various federal ministers, whether 
 18   it be in Ottawa or, you know, side trips to Wuskwatim 
 19   and NCN community.  And I know that there was at 
 20   least three Ministers that attended in this community 
 21   along with the Senator.  
 22               And in addition to that, being a -- I 
 23   guess, you know, taking materials from NCN to various 
 24   ministers in Ottawa as well as the Prime Minister's 
 25   office, this is just some of the things that I was 
07519
  1   doing on behalf of NCN in support of, you know, what 
  2   their visions were for their community.  
  3               So I just wanted to give you that 
  4   information so that, you know, nobody in this room 
  5   thinks that, you know, Trapline 18 is opposed to what 
  6   NCN is doing.  But, you know, the difficulty -- well, 
  7   not the difficulty, but I think -- and you have heard 
  8   comments from CASIL and from Chris Baker, headman for 
  9   OPCN, you know, when it comes to family, there's a 
 10   lot of difficult decisions that have to be made.  And 
 11   you know, when my brothers asked me to come and 
 12   represent them in this process, because we didn't 
 13   have the resources to get the legal or the technical 
 14   support that we required, you know, I had to do that. 
 15   That was my responsibility.  So that's why I'm here. 
 16               Anyway, just to begin.  Firstly, I would 
 17   like to thank the CEC, Manitoba Hydro, all those who 
 18   have participated in this process thus far.  It has 
 19   been a long road and we appreciate everyone who has 
 20   travelled it with us.  This process is adversarial by 
 21   nature and we wanted to express that we respect and 
 22   applaud the efforts given by everyone throughout the 
 23   past few months.  
 24               I will highlight some important points 
 25   Trapline 18 has presented throughout these hearings.  
07520
  1   I will then focus on some of Trapline 18's 
  2   submissions on some unfortunate procedural matters 
  3   that have proven to be hurdles to our effective 
  4   participation.  Finally, I will provide 
  5   recommendations as to how we believe the CEC should 
  6   review this process.  My hope is that the CEC and 
  7   regulators can take these comments in order to 
  8   improve future hearings. 
  9               At the outset, Trapline 18 was under the 
 10   belief that the CEC review of the Wuskwatim projects 
 11   was to be a public friendly process where all 
 12   participants would be given support and respected for 
 13   their various positions brought before the CEC.  Our 
 14   intent was to share our knowledge of Wuskwatim and 
 15   Trapline 18 area with the CEC and the public.  
 16   However, I am not a lawyer nor am I a scientist, and 
 17   it seems that these are prerequisites to 
 18   participating in this process.  Trapline 18's 
 19   experience has been frustrating and we do not believe 
 20   we have been able to participate in a meaningful way 
 21   for a number of reasons.  
 22               Legal expertise and the process.  We have 
 23   stated during our presentation we do not have the 
 24   geographic, hydrological and legal expertise to put 
 25   forward our position.  We understand that this type 
07521
  1   of expertise was not actually required to 
  2   participate.  For example, at the Motions Hearing on 
  3   Friday, January 23, 2004, Ms. Avery Kinew stated that 
  4   she was interested in what we can bring forward in 
  5   the hearing.  We very much appreciated that.  To 
  6   quote from the transcripts, on page 81.  
  7                  "Ms. Avery Kinew:  Good morning, Mr. 
  8                  McIvor, we are glad you came.  And I 
  9                  think we are interested in what you 
 10                  can bring forward in the hearing.  And 
 11                  you feel that the responses that you 
 12                  have to date don't provide you with 
 13                  enough information.  I think what we 
 14                  would be looking from you is what you 
 15                  and your brothers know about the land, 
 16                  more traditional knowledge, not 
 17                  necessarily numbers and western 
 18                  scientific evidence, but traditional 
 19                  knowledge." 
 20               On page 83.  
 21                  "Ms. Avery Kinew: I think in the 
 22                  hearing we would like to move forward 
 23                  to hear some of the evidence you have, 
 24                  and whatever you can do to bring that 
 25                  forward would be helpful."  
07522
  1               These comments were taken seriously and 
  2   Trapline #18 had provided as much of our experience 
  3   and knowledge about our trapline as possible.  
  4   Gauging by the response to our presentation, it is 
  5   apparent that traditional knowledge was not what was 
  6   expected of us but rather western scientific evidence 
  7   that contradicts Manitoba Hydro's assertion that 
  8   Trapline 18 is unaffected by northern hydro 
  9   development.  This is unfair. 
 10               On May 26, 2004, Trapline 18 presented 
 11   its oral submissions to the CEC.  On that date, we 
 12   raised major issues with respect to cumulative 
 13   effects and the lack of fairness and equity with 
 14   participation in the review of Wuskwatim. 
 15               a.  That many, if not most, impacts from 
 16   Churchill River Diversion, those being the system 
 17   impacts, are felt across Trapline 18 and Northern 
 18   Manitoba and will not be confined to NCN territory.   
 19               b.  That many, if not most, impacts from 
 20   the Augmented Flow Program that is currently operated 
 21   within the Churchill River Diversion, those being the 
 22   system impacts, are felt across Trapline 18 and 
 23   Northern Manitoba and are not confined to NCN 
 24   territory.  
 25               c.  The CEC does not know what all the 
07523
  1   CRD hydro system impacts are, thus cannot know all 
  2   the ways and degrees the addition of Wuskwatim to the 
  3   Churchill River Diversion and the AFP will affect the 
  4   water quality, environment, wildlife and greenhouse 
  5   gas emissions. 
  6               We have spoken with elders and others who 
  7   have worked, hunted, fished, trapped and gathered in 
  8   and around Trapline 18 who also believe that the 
  9   extreme water fluctuations are not an act of God.  My 
 10   brothers have lost money and equipment over the years 
 11   trying to access their trapline.  But with the slush 
 12   ice, hanging ice and eroded shorelines have been a 
 13   consistent problem over the past 30 years. 
 14               Our point is that in the 1970s when 
 15   Manitoba Hydro first began the construction of the 
 16   Churchill River Diversion and the Lake Winnipeg 
 17   Regulation, nobody predicted the devastating impact 
 18   it would have.  It seemed impossible that these 
 19   projects would have a significant deleterious impact 
 20   on Northern Manitoba.  
 21               I will quote from the 1979 Tritschler 
 22   Report that was sanctioned by the government 
 23   following the construction of the CRD.  
 24                  "Studies of the social and 
 25                  environmental effects of the CRD were 
07524
  1                  inadequate.  Hydro did not realize 
  2                  until long after the final commitment 
  3                  of CRD in December 1972 that the 
  4                  project could not be completed without 
  5                  significant remedial measures 
  6                  downstream of Missi Falls and Notigi.  
  7                  The delayed recognition of the major 
  8                  engineering problems at South Bay 
  9                  Channel and Missi Falls, and along the 
 10                  Burntwood River, combined with the 
 11                  failure of Hydro and government to 
 12                  resolve the mitigation issues in a 
 13                  timely manner were the principal 
 14                  causes for the two year delay in 
 15                  completion."  
 16   Furthermore, the report stated, and I quote, 
 17                  "Had the government and Hydro 
 18                  initiated negotiations with affected 
 19                  communities prior to the commitment of 
 20                  the CRD project in 1972, the course of 
 21                  events would have been drastically 
 22                  different.  As it was, Hydro's lack of 
 23                  readiness combined with the 
 24                  procrastination and confrontation 
 25                  tactics of the Advisory Committee 
07525
  1                  contributed to the expense and length 
  2                  of time it took to reach a settlement 
  3                  with the Northern Flood Committee or 
  4                  NFC."  
  5               While we understand that this 
  6   environmental review has helped tremendously in 
  7   predicting future impacts, it is our position that 
  8   the opinions expressed 25 years ago in the Tritschler 
  9   Report are still very applicable today.  Hydro has 
 10   been wrong in the past so it is not inconceivable 
 11   that they are wrong about certain matters today. 
 12               On March 25, 2004 at Opasquia Cree 
 13   Nation, we had an opportunity to listen to Chief 
 14   Clarence Easter of Chemawawin Cree Nation, who 
 15   pointed out, in his community's experience of dealing 
 16   with Hydro over 40 years, we must not lose site of 
 17   achieving sustainable development in our communities 
 18   and that we have to look forward, but let's correct 
 19   the wrongs of the past, learn from our mistakes and 
 20   don't throw the baby out with the bath water. 
 21               While we have openly stated, and refer to 
 22   transcript of the January 23rd Motions hearing, that 
 23   we support the Wuskwatim process, it is our concern 
 24   that Wuskwatim and subsequent dams will lead to 
 25   further degradation of Trapline #18.  I believe that 
07526
  1   we have shown that the water level changes on 
  2   Trapline 18 are not natural and that the operation of 
  3   the CRD leads to unpredictable conditions on Ferguson 
  4   Creek.  We have shown photographic evidence 
  5   documenting the significant changes to our trapline 
  6   over the past 10 years.  We have provided statements 
  7   from people who have hunted and worked in the area, 
  8   who contend that the water fluctuations on Trapline 
  9   18 are not natural.  We have seen from the video that 
 10   the landscape of Trapline 18 is not healthy. 
 11               Wuskwatim Brook, which is situated only 
 12   kilometres north from Ferguson Creek, is directly 
 13   tied to the Wuskwatim system and the CRD.  
 14   Geographically, the distance between the Brook and 
 15   the Ferguson Creek is small and the area in between 
 16   the two systems is swampy, wet and marshy.  We have 
 17   also heard testimony throughout this process that 
 18   nine NCN traplines around Trapline 18 have 
 19   experienced low production over the past 10 years.  
 20   And evidence from NCN consultants indicate NCN 
 21   trappers have abandoned their traplines in the south 
 22   end, specifically Trapline 41, 64 and 65 of the 
 23   Nelson House Resource Management area.  We would 
 24   suggest that that is related to water fluctuations 
 25   and unstable environment conditions. 
07527
  1               With the continuance of Hydro-controlled, 
  2   unnatural and thus damaging water level changes, we 
  3   will continue to witness the degradation of 
  4   shorelines and anthropogenic disturbance of riparian 
  5   zones in the northern region; further destruction of 
  6   wildlife including fish habitat, bird habitat, 
  7   caribou, fox, beaver and martin habitat; the 
  8   elimination of traditional pathways to pursue our 
  9   Treaty, inherent and Aboriginal right to hunt, trap, 
 10   fish and gather on our land. 
 11               Trapline 18 depends on a stable and 
 12   sustainable environment to retain a way of life, 
 13   culture and livelihood.  We have witnessed 
 14   devastation.  The land is being sucked away, water is 
 15   clogged with pollutants and life-threatening hazards 
 16   from submerged and floating debris and trees that 
 17   have fallen victim to shoreline erosion.  
 18               The failure of Hydro in this process to 
 19   deal head-on with these devastating effects from 
 20   system impacts and that the end results of current 
 21   cumulative impacts of 28 years will further be 
 22   compounded with the effects from Wuskwatim. 
 23               We will now move on to some more 
 24   procedural matters.  During our presentation, we 
 25   attempted to provide the CEC with our knowledge of 
07528
  1   the land and how it has been drastically changed over 
  2   the years.  While attempting to do so, the following 
  3   comments were given by the CEC Chairman.  May 26, 
  4   2004, page 2462.  
  5                  "THE CHAIRMAN:  How much longer?  
  6                  MR. G. MCIVOR:  How much longer is it? 
  7                  About an hour and a couple of minutes. 
  8                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Well, if we're having 
  9                  to watch one way and then the other 
 10                  way back -- 
 11                  MR. G. MCIVOR:  No.  If you look at 
 12                  that little map we gave you, what they 
 13                  did was they went up -- there are 
 14                  three branches on the Ferguson Creek.  
 15                  So they are all different areas, just 
 16                  different routes that we use on our 
 17                  Trapline.  I'd really appreciate if we 
 18                  can view this video because it does 
 19                  form part of the evidence that you 
 20                  guys just made comments on, where it's 
 21                  an act of God, it's nature.  So let's 
 22                  enjoy the movie.  
 23                  THE CHAIRMAN: Well, you show it, I'll 
 24                  sleep." 
 25               While we appreciate that the CEC has the 
07529
  1   authority to rule on evidentiary matters and to 
  2   conduct the hearings as they see fit, it is our 
  3   submission that the video was important to establish 
  4   points later on in our presentation.  To convey to 
  5   the CEC our traditional knowledge, we chose to use a 
  6   very visual format and we were hoping that the CEC 
  7   would respect this.  The schedule had allotted us 
  8   three hours to present our evidence and we prepared 
  9   for two hours of our presentation followed by one 
 10   hour of questions from other participants.  It should 
 11   be noted that we finished well ahead of our time and 
 12   that we did not waste anyone's time.  
 13               I say this because during our 
 14   presentation, the Chairman noted that we were not 
 15   providing useful information, and I quote.  May 26, 
 16   2004.  
 17                  "THE CHAIRMAN:  Would you please begin 
 18                  with your presentation.  
 19                  MR. G. MCIVOR:  Yeah, after we -- all 
 20                  I'm viewing is evidence that's been 
 21                  filed with this Commission.  So I have 
 22                  some -- 
 23                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Maybe you should have 
 24                  viewed your film before.  
 25                  MR. G. MCIVOR:  I did and that's why 
07530
  1                  I'm showing it again because I think 
  2                  it's important that you see this.  
  3                  THE CHAIRMAN:  This is not useful, you 
  4                  know.  
  5                  MR. G. MCIVOR:  It isn't?  
  6                  THE CHAIRMAN:  No.  
  7                  MR. G. MCIVOR:  Well, if you've 
  8                  already made up your mind, it's not 
  9                  useful.  
 10                  THE CHAIRMAN: I'll show you what 
 11                  you've got to do.  MR. G. MCIVOR: 
 12                  Yeah, well, we'll talk about that." 
 13               Anyway, we are of the opinion that the 
 14   information we provided was useful and were along the 
 15   lines of what was expected of us.  We showed that the 
 16   overall landscape of Trapline 18 and from some of the 
 17   panoramic video segments, we showed that the 
 18   elevation north of Trapline 18 is not as severe as 
 19   contrary evidence has been led to illustrate.  We 
 20   attempted to provide the CEC with visual evidence to 
 21   show water flow fluctuations that, from our 
 22   traditional experience, is not natural.  We wanted to 
 23   show the CEC that while water does not flow uphill, 
 24   that there exists a possibility that water is 
 25   travelling through this marshy region north of 
07531
  1   Trapline 18.  And that further examination is 
  2   necessary.  
  3               We were dismayed by the Chair's comments 
  4   which gave the distinct impression that our 
  5   presentation was not being taken seriously and was 
  6   being prejudged and therefore not properly taken into 
  7   account.  Despite the Chair's comments, we hope that 
  8   the CEC will carefully consider all the evidence put 
  9   forward. 
 10               Number 3, respect.  It is also our 
 11   submission that at times, Trapline 18 was not taken 
 12   seriously throughout this process.  For example, 
 13   while we appreciate the enormous task the CEC has in 
 14   administering a hearing of this size, we want to 
 15   offer special thanks to Mr. Rory Grewar for his 
 16   support.  We felt it was a bad omen when the first 
 17   day of hearings, we walked in and found ourselves 
 18   without a seat or a chair at the hearings or a place 
 19   card.  This, however, is just the tip of the iceberg. 
 20   On March 15, '04, it was suggested that a helicopter 
 21   ride that was taken by Donald McIvor was sufficient 
 22   consultation for Trapline 18.  And I quote, page 
 23   1820.  
 24                  "THE CHAIRMAN:  I think the point that 
 25                  was made was that you asked about 
07532
  1                  consultations.  There was an 
  2                  undertaking to provide a date and 
  3                  name, and that is what was done, and I 
  4                  guess -- 
  5                  MR. MCIVOR:  That isn't accurate as it 
  6                  was.  I think the reference that Mr. 
  7                  Wojczynski was talking about had G. 
  8                  McIvor.  There is Geoff, George, 
  9                  Glenn, Geraldine, Grace.  It just says 
 10                  G. McIvor.  I mean, I don't go talk to 
 11                  Manitoba Lotteries about what Manitoba 
 12                  Hydro is doing.  
 13                  THE CHAIRMAN:  We will accept that, it 
 14                  was not as specific as you are saying. 
 15                  We will leave it at that.  
 16                  MR. SARGEANT:  Let's get this 
 17                  straight.  At least what Mr. 
 18                  Wojczynski told us was that Glenn 
 19                  McIvor was making inquiries about 
 20                  Trapline 18.  
 21                  MR. MCIVOR:  For whatever reason, you 
 22                  know, he might have picked all of that 
 23                  up through the discussions that we 
 24                  have had.  But not for 15 years with 
 25                  Manitoba Hydro.  I would like to put 
07533
  1                  that on the record, that that hasn't 
  2                  happened.  We have asked that question 
  3                  in interrogatories and -- 
  4                  MR. MAYER:  You got a free helicopter 
  5                  ride anyway.  MR. MCIVOR:  But, Mr. 
  6                  Mayer, it didn't take 15 years to go 
  7                  on that ride.  And there wasn't two 
  8                  free helicopters rides either.  I take 
  9                  exception to that, Mr. Mayer.  I think 
 10                  as a member of the CEC, you have to 
 11                  have some at least ability to be 
 12                  objective in this process.  
 13                  MR. MAYER:  Mr. McIvor, you had a 
 14                  significant amount of time.  I 
 15                  remember very clearly your 
 16                  presentation to the participants 
 17                  committee, and very specifically what 
 18                  you wanted to talk about.  Strangely 
 19                  enough it sounded very similar to that 
 20                  underground river and the height of 
 21                  water on Trapline 18.  Raised 
 22                  specifically, and you raised 
 23                  specifically, I have a clear 
 24                  recollection of this, Mr. McIvor, it 
 25                  is not a question of bias, it is a 
07534
  1                  question of I remember what you told 
  2                  me.  And what you told me is you were 
  3                  concerned about the underground, about 
  4                  the raise in the river or the water 
  5                  levels on the Trapline and how much 
  6                  that was costing you.  You were very 
  7                  specific about that.  And that sounds 
  8                  to me like exactly what your brother 
  9                  was discussing with Manitoba Hydro, 
 10                  and taking the one or two helicopter 
 11                  rides with them.  MR. MCIVOR:  But I 
 12                  think we also understand, Mr. Mayer, 
 13                  and I'm sure you are quite educated in 
 14                  this process being a lawyer, that, you 
 15                  know, you don't go and discuss 
 16                  somebody else's case without actually 
 17                  talking to the client, and that is my 
 18                  point exactly.  I don't go and talk to 
 19                  Manitoba Lotteries or anybody else 
 20                  about what Manitoba Hydro's business 
 21                  is, and I would appreciate the same 
 22                  respect.  And I think that is 
 23                  something that I have tried to work 
 24                  with you guys on this whole process.  
 25                  And being bumped here and there, you 
07535
  1                  know, like I said, I don't really want 
  2                  to have any ill feelings on either 
  3                  side, because we are just trying to 
  4                  participate." 
  5               Firstly, getting a free helicopter ride 
  6   is not what we were looking for in this process.  We 
  7   were looking for a full hydrological and 
  8   environmental assessment of the region.  While Mr. 
  9   Mayer might find this amusing, I am of the opinion 
 10   that the consultations and surveying issues are very 
 11   important to Trapline #18. 
 12               Secondly, I was told on more than one 
 13   occasion that my participation in this process was to 
 14   identify a water source from the Burntwood River 
 15   system to Trapline #18.  I have done that, to the 
 16   best of my ability, with limited resources.  However, 
 17   it was my understanding that this is a public process 
 18   and, therefore, I would have the opportunity to ask 
 19   questions of the proponent and the CEC.  I would also 
 20   like to state for the record that my brother, Glenn 
 21   McIvor, has written to the CEC to indicate that at no 
 22   time he was acting as a representative of Trapline 
 23   18.  His conversations with Manitoba Hydro were as a 
 24   resident of Manitoba and not as a liaison for 
 25   Trapline 18.  Any conversations he had with Manitoba 
07536
  1   Hydro staff should not be considered consultation 
  2   with Trapline 18.  I thought that was important for 
  3   the public record. 
  4               Another problem exists in that we were 
  5   promised certain materials.  And to this date, 
  6   nothing has been provided.  We had requested a list 
  7   of supplemental agreements so that we could examine 
  8   the different definitions of "adverse effects."  
  9   Nothing has been provided to me.  On March 15th, '04 
 10   the following was said, page 1798.  
 11                  "MR. MCIVOR:  Am I going to get some 
 12                  agreements on -- the 13 supplemental 
 13                  agreements?  
 14                  THE CHAIRMAN:  No, you were just told 
 15                  where you could get a copy of that 
 16                  agreement, from the mayor of Wabowden 
 17                  or council.  
 18                  MR. MCIVOR:  That is one of the 
 19                  agreement holders.  Manitoba Hydro 
 20                  signed the agreement.  Why wouldn't 
 21                  they have made it available?  
 22                  MR. ADAMS:  The agreements are not 
 23                  unilateral agreements, they are 
 24                  agreements between us and the various 
 25                  communities, and we are not in the 
07537
  1                  habit of papering the countryside with 
  2                  agreements between us and somebody 
  3                  else without at least discussing the 
  4                  relevance of it with the other party.  
  5                  In this particular case I think I just 
  6                  testified about ten minutes ago that I 
  7                  simply don't see the relevance to 
  8                  these proceedings of providing copies 
  9                  of implementation agreements, 
 10                  compensation agreements or other 
 11                  agreements with communities throughout 
 12                  Manitoba.  
 13                  MR. MCIVOR: I don't think it was 
 14                  throughout Manitoba. 
 15                  MR. ADAMS:  I did agree to give you a 
 16                  list and identify where in those 
 17                  agreements there would be -- what we 
 18                  were specifically talking about was 
 19                  the definition of adverse effects.  
 20                  MR. MCIVOR:  I think it was under the 
 21                  '96 implementation agreement with NCN 
 22                  that you identify that.  I acknowledge 
 23                  that, that you provided a definition 
 24                  that was in the agreement, one of your 
 25                  agreements.  So I wanted to find out 
07538
  1                  in these 13 other agreements how much 
  2                  did they vary, because you mentioned 
  3                  there is a variable in terms of how 
  4                  you describe or define adverse 
  5                  effects.  
  6                  THE CHAIRMAN:  I believe the question 
  7                  is how do you define adverse effects, 
  8                  and I believe the answer was provided 
  9                  the other day.  
 10                  MR. ADAMS:  The definition in the 
 11                  agreement with NCN was provided at the 
 12                  end of the day.  
 13                  MR. MCIVOR:  But that wasn't my 
 14                  question either.  My question was in 
 15                  order to look at the various 
 16                  agreements which Mr. Adams had 
 17                  indicated last week, there are 
 18                  variances from one agreement to the 
 19                  other in terms of the definition of 
 20                  adverse effects, and I was asking for 
 21                  copies of the agreements so that I can 
 22                  view the definitions of those adverse 
 23                  effects if there are differences.  
 24                  THE CHAIRMAN: Well, it is -- I have 
 25                  heard one thing so far and I don't 
07539
  1                  know how to allow you to proceed with 
  2                  that.  Because I have heard from Mr. 
  3                  Adams that you will not get copies of 
  4                  these agreements that are distributed 
  5                  by Hydro.  You will get a list.  Based 
  6                  on the list, you can then access those 
  7                  agreements and you can then compare 
  8                  how adverse effects are defined,  if 
  9                  you believe they are defined 
 10                  differently.  Unless someone from 
 11                  Hydro wishes to respond whether there 
 12                  are, and for what reason, there are 
 13                  differences in the interpretation of 
 14                  adverse effects.  
 15                  THE CHAIRMAN:  I will ask you, Mr. 
 16                  McIvor, have you got any additional 
 17                  questions that you want to ask at this 
 18                  time?  
 19                  MR. MCIVOR:  Not at this time.  I will 
 20                  just save that for the EIS portion and 
 21                  hopefully be able to frame it in that 
 22                  regard." 
 23               We would also like to point out that on 
 24   March 23, '04 hearings at the hearings in Thompson, 
 25   we were not allowed to continue our cross-examination 
07540
  1   of Mr. Fred Fitzner and Henry Garrick.  The evidence 
  2   that he was presenting was directly related to 
  3   Trapline 18 and seemingly not in his own words.  I 
  4   was merely trying to get clarification on some 
  5   consultation issues.  The transcript on page 3292 
  6   shows how this occurred.  
  7                  "THE CHAIRMAN:  What I see is you're 
  8                  having a little debate here and having 
  9                  a discussion.  
 10                  MR. MCIVOR:  I'm just asking a 
 11                  question on consultation.  
 12                  THE CHAIRMAN:  He answered.  
 13                  MR. MCIVOR:  If they had consultation, 
 14                  was it with who and who initiated the 
 15                  consultation?  
 16                  THE CHAIRMAN:  He said that you did.  
 17                  MR. MCIVOR:  Well, I'm not Manitoba 
 18                  Hydro or NCN.  THE CHAIRMAN:  No, but 
 19                  you discussed it and he said you 
 20                  brought him into it.  
 21                  MR. MCIVOR:  Well, I didn't do that.  
 22                  I want to apologize if I did.  
 23                  THE CHAIRMAN:  I think maybe, 
 24                  gentlemen, you'll get an opportunity 
 25                  to sit down and have a further 
07541
  1                  discussion on these issues.  We shall 
  2                  have a 15 minute break.  We'll be back 
  3                  here at five to 3:00.  
  4   
  5                  (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 2:41 P.M. 
  6                  AND RECONVENED at 3:00 P.M.)  
  7   
  8                  THE CHAIRMAN:  Please take your place. 
  9                  We, as two-legged animals, have a 
 10                  tendancy of getting tired very 
 11                  quickly, therefore, it is time we find 
 12                  a chair so we can get comfortable to 
 13                  carry on here.  I call upon Mr. Leslie 
 14                  Baker."  
 15               It should be noted that during the March 
 16   15th session, an undertaking was to be carried out 
 17   regarding supposed meetings between Manitoba Hydro 
 18   and representatives of Trapline 18.  These have not 
 19   been provided either.  Page 1804.  
 20                  "(Undertaking number MH-41.  Advise 
 21                  date of consultation meeting and who 
 22                  from Trapline 18 was in attendance.)" 
 23               The preceding were a few examples of how 
 24   Trapline 18 feels it has not been taken seriously in 
 25   these hearings.  It was our thought that as a public 
07542
  1   forum, these hearings were an opportunity to present 
  2   evidence and viewpoints from various perspectives 
  3   regardless of how popular they may be.  Our 
  4   experience was to the contrary. 
  5               Finally on this issue, we would like to 
  6   point out that we were repeatedly told to address 
  7   some of our concerns in the EIS cross-examination.  
  8   We were never provided an opportune time to do so.  
  9   While it is recognized that we were asked to give a 
 10   cross-examination following our presentation, 
 11   unfortunately I was leaving out of town at this time. 
 12   In three months of hearings, I was not asked to come 
 13   forward with EIS questions until a couple of days 
 14   before these closing statements began.  
 15   Number 4, legal issues.  The parties to this CEC 
 16   process, including Manitoba Hydro, the Province of 
 17   Manitoba and the Federal Government, have failed to 
 18   adhere to the existing NFA agreements and are in 
 19   violation of their fiduciary responsibilities and 
 20   obligations. 
 21               I refer to the following provisions.  
 22   Article 23.2 of the NFA states, and I quote, 
 23                  "The onus shall be on Hydro to 
 24                  establish that the Projects did not 
 25                  cause nor contribute to an adverse 
07543
  1                  effect, where any claim arises by 
  2                  virtue of an actual or purported 
  3                  effect of the project."  
  4   Article 9.2 says, and I quote, 
  5                  "Hydro shall not make any decisions in 
  6                  respect of any future development 
  7                  unless and until a process of bona 
  8                  fide and meaningful consultation with 
  9                  the communities has taken place." 
 10               Together this means that under the NFA, 
 11   the onus is on Hydro to show that adverse effects 
 12   will not result from future development.  The onus is 
 13   not on any Aboriginal party to prove that existing or 
 14   future development would cause adverse effects. 
 15               I am sure that this CEC Commission will 
 16   be adhering to and referencing legislation under the 
 17   Environment Act.  
 18               Consultation issues.  It was submitted in 
 19   Heather Leonoff's presentation that the appropriate 
 20   venue for contesting or debating Section 35 
 21   consultation rights is in the courts.  It has also 
 22   been suggested that prior impacts from Hydro 
 23   development should also be settled in the courts.  
 24   While these are interesting arguments, it is our 
 25   submission that this Commission has the jurisdiction 
07544
  1   to consider both issues.  
  2               As a funded participant, and I know I 
  3   speak somewhat for other Aboriginal communities, the 
  4   fiscal commitment to launching a legal proceeding in 
  5   the courts are beyond our financial realities.  Our 
  6   financial resources were exhausted and, therefore, 
  7   our personal financial resources stretched to the 
  8   maximum to participate in this process and the idea 
  9   that we should initiate other legal processes through 
 10   the courts is impractical and unworkable.  
 11               Further, Ms. Leonoff's presentation was 
 12   legal argument dressed up as a witness's evidence.  
 13   It was inappropriate and should have been saved for 
 14   closing submissions. 
 15               Number 6, compare James Bay Agreement 
 16   with what Hydro is offering NCN.  I think it is 
 17   appropriate to examine the financial realities with 
 18   respect to the partnership between NCN and Hydro.  
 19   While we respect the decisions of the NCN community, 
 20   I think it should be noted some of the weaker points 
 21   of the partnership when examined in comparison with 
 22   other Hydro arrangements throughout Canada.  I should 
 23   also point out that we do not consider this new 
 24   evidence as aspects of the SOU between Hydro and NCN 
 25   have been discussed in these hearings. 
07545
  1               In Quebec, they are paying the Cree for 
  2   their resources, in the first year $23 million, in 
  3   the second year $46 million, thereafter $70 million.  
  4   And a fixed term of development of resource, 
  5   community centres built in each Cree community.  They 
  6   were offered electricity supplied to remote northern 
  7   communities, improved water and sewage treatment and 
  8   settlement of lands and settlement of outstanding 
  9   legal disputes, past wrongs, et cetera. 
 10               In Manitoba, it appears as though 
 11   Manitoba Hydro is loaning NCN $41 million to develop 
 12   NCN's resources.  No other Cree Nations or Aboriginal 
 13   communities have been offered partnership deals in 
 14   the Wuskwatim projects.  Furthermore, a community 
 15   centre is being built in Nelson House only and 
 16   Wuskwatim development runs into perpetuity.  
 17               There are no guarantees of improved water 
 18   or sewage treatment, no further settlement of 
 19   outstanding compensation issues, no discussions or 
 20   offers of supplying electricity to remote northern 
 21   communities and pre-training funding is provided but 
 22   jobs will evaporate after six years. 
 23               Also the majority of jobs are not trade 
 24   specific and the northern communities do not have 
 25   infrastructure to get the larger construction 
07546
  1   contracts.  Councillor Elvis Thomas admitted there 
  2   was only one construction company in Nelson House and 
  3   they would have to joint venture a contract in order 
  4   to help with the Wuskwatim construction, et cetera. 
  5                Ed Wojczynski has said that Manitoba 
  6   Hydro is confident that the deal being offered to NCN 
  7   is as good or better than Hydro development deals 
  8   being offered elsewhere.  Given what is being offered 
  9   to NCN people, is Mr. Wojczynski's claim valid?  
 10               Number 7.  We recommend that the CEC 
 11   examine the current licensing structure of the 
 12   Churchill River Diversion.  We have heard evidence 
 13   presented by a number of public participants that 
 14   indicates Manitoba Hydro has been operating the CRD 
 15   under an interim licence since May 1973.  Under 
 16   cross-examination, Manitoba Hydro representatives and 
 17   Mr. Steve Topping from the Water Stewardship Division 
 18   on April 13th indicated that they are still working 
 19   out the severance line pursuant to Section 19 of the 
 20   Water Power Act Regulations 25/88R.  This is a 31 
 21   year period under which Manitoba Hydro has not 
 22   finalized its licence as is a requirement under 
 23   Section 19(j).  We feel this is an unacceptable 
 24   amount of time to figure out the effects and nuances 
 25   of the Churchill River Diversion. 
07547
  1               In relation to Trapline 18, if it has 
  2   taken 31 years to fully realize the waterline and 
  3   environmental changes caused by the CRD, then surely 
  4   it cannot be impossible for the system to have a 
  5   negative impact on Trapline 18.  Hydro cannot make 
  6   this statement without a full geographical and 
  7   hydrological analysis of the region. 
  8               Through evidence presented by concerned 
  9   public participants, it was established that the 
 10   version of the Water Power Act, under which the 
 11   interim licence was originally drawn up, stipulates, 
 12   under Section 7(3)(a), that "no power generated in 
 13   Manitoba from any provincial water power shall be 
 14   exported across the international boundary."  
 15               While we realize that this section in the 
 16   legislation has been repealed, we wish to point out 
 17   that it was valid legislation the time the interim 
 18   licence was granted in 1973. 
 19               While we recognize that some of these 
 20   licensing suggestions are outside the purview of the 
 21   CEC, it would be prudent of the CEC to recommend to 
 22   the Minister that these matters be investigated.  
 23               On May 27, 2004, it was admitted during 
 24   direct examination that violations of the interim 
 25   licence had taken place but that Hydro had a higher 
07548
  1   moral responsibility to avoid public hazards.  A 
  2   violation of the law is a violation of the law 
  3   regardless of the justification.  We ask the CEC to 
  4   recommend to the province for a full review of the 
  5   control structures at Missi Falls and Notigi.  It is 
  6   ridiculous that Hydro has been left solely in charge 
  7   of both interpreting and monitoring conditions of a 
  8   licence that it received from the Provincial 
  9   Government.  Where is the impartiality? 
 10               What we would like the CEC to do.  
 11               Number i.  Heed the warnings made in the 
 12   Tritschler Report and slow down the construction of 
 13   Wuskwatim.  Hydro has not cleaned up or sufficiently 
 14   dealt with the mistakes that were made with past 
 15   projects, and yet here they are launching into 
 16   another development without learning from the past. 
 17               Number ii.  Listen to the concerns of the 
 18   people this will most affect.  These projects are not 
 19   being developed in the back yards of Winnipegers. 
 20               Number iii.  Read and analyze the 
 21   mitigation policies and plans that Hydro has recently 
 22   submitted to the DFO, determine if they are adequate, 
 23   where there are shortfalls and what needs to be done 
 24   to address this. 
 25               Number iv.  Make sure this review process 
07549
  1   is done right the first time.  Just because this is 
  2   the first time a review process like this has 
  3   happened does not mean that the bar should be 
  4   lowered.  In fact, the bar should be raised, as it 
  5   seems that further Hydro dams are on the horizon. 
  6               Number v.  To establish a joint resource 
  7   management process that will include, establishing 
  8   water quality monitoring, establishing wildlife 
  9   monitoring, establish hydrology monitoring, establish 
 10   environmental monitoring, establish global warming 
 11   monitoring, provide compensation for adverse effects 
 12   from previous Hydro developments and continuing 
 13   compensation for new effects.  
 14               Number vi.  Set in place mechanisms to 
 15   ensure that there will be direction and input from 
 16   Trapline 18.  
 17               Number vii.  That any future development 
 18   in Trapline 18 area will respect and recognize our 
 19   Aboriginal rights and privileges.  
 20               Number viii.  We are firm on the fact 
 21   that Trapline 18 must always be a full and equal 
 22   partner in planning for development in the Trapline 
 23   18 resource area. 
 24               Number 9.  What we have seen and heard in 
 25   this hearing.  People are concerned about this 
07550
  1   project, that's number i.  
  2               Number ii.  People feel they have been 
  3   left out of this process.  
  4               Number iii.  People who have tried to 
  5   participate have had to face some pretty intimidating 
  6   circumstances.  Many of these people have no 
  7   experience in a hearing or review setting.  They have 
  8   come from remote communities just to learn about 
  9   these projects that will directly affect them and 
 10   their children.  They have voiced their concerns, 
 11   even when faced with language and cultural barriers, 
 12   and they have still spoken to a room full of Hydro 
 13   lawyers, consultants and experts.  They have 
 14   addressed the CEC Panel and asked to be listened to.  
 15               Number iv.  There has not been an 
 16   information session given to any First Nation 
 17   community on how the CEC hearings will proceed or 
 18   what the process is for participation for elders or 
 19   members.  
 20               Number 10.  Closing.  To close things up, 
 21   I would like to reiterate that this is an 
 22   environmental assessment and review, where 
 23   environmental protection is supposed to be first and 
 24   foremost. 
 25               The fact that this is a smaller sized dam 
07551
  1   and that a low-head design has been chosen are 
  2   positive aspects of the design process.  Yet these 
  3   facts don't change the reality that the Wuskwatim dam 
  4   is going to be operated under the same system that 
  5   existed for 30 years.  This is the same system that 
  6   we believe has caused significant damage to Trapline 
  7   #18 and it is the same system that will continue to 
  8   do so under its current operation.  
  9               It has been stated several times that the 
 10   CRD and Lake Winnipeg Regulations are extremely 
 11   complicated systems that require great feats of 
 12   engineering.  As such, does it not make more sense to 
 13   err on the side of caution when dealing with an 
 14   addition to an already complicated system?  
 15               Who feels these effects most directly?  
 16   Not Hydro executives, not people in Winnipeg, not 
 17   people in Eastern Canada, not people in the U.S., it 
 18   is the Aboriginal people in Northern Manitoba.  It is 
 19   Don McIvor and Trapline 18 who will be left to carry 
 20   the added burden to suffer the cumulative effects and 
 21   costs. 
 22               We invite the CEC to find there is a need 
 23   for this project only after they have received all 
 24   the information.  We invite the CEC to find that the 
 25   costs of this project is not justified because while 
07552
  1   it is clear there will be environmental, social, 
  2   economic and human costs, there has been no 
  3   accounting of these.  If there ever was a case where 
  4   need did not justify the consequences, this is it. 
  5               Once again, we would like to thank 
  6   everyone who has participated in these hearings and 
  7   we thank the CEC for allowing us to express our 
  8   concerns.  Thank you very much. 
  9               THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. McIvor.  We 
 10   have another presentation from Boreal Forest to come 
 11   forth.  I believe we will have a short break before 
 12   you do.  
 13               MR. GREWAR:  Mr. Chairman, just before we 
 14   proceed then.  The submission, the closing statement 
 15   of Trapline 18 will be entered as T18-1003.  
 16   
 17               (EXHIBIT T18-1003:  Closing Statement of  
 18               Trapline #18)
 19   
 20               (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 10:57 A.M. AND
 21               RECONVENED AT 11:12 A.M.)       
 22   
 23               THE CHAIRMAN:  I believe we're all ready 
 24   to carry forward.  Mr. Sullivan for the Boreal 
 25   Forest.
07553
  1               MR. SULLIVAN:  Good morning.  I'm here 
  2   today representing the Boreal Forest Network which is 
  3   a network of scientists, academics, indigenous 
  4   peoples and environmental organizations.  We are a 
  5   non-funded participant at these hearings.  
  6               My presentation is not written and I 
  7   would probably start by making a few general 
  8   observations and then move into some specific 
  9   recommendations for the Clean Environment Commission 
 10   to hopefully move those recommendations forward to 
 11   the Minister in their report.  And so with that, I'll 
 12   just start with my general observations.  
 13               I would like to state for the record and 
 14   address an issue that came before the Commission near 
 15   the beginning.  I was here one day when Chief 
 16   Primrose had accused environmental groups of being 
 17   economic terrorists and I would just like to state 
 18   for the record that I am not an economic terrorist.  
 19   And I think it was based on the assumption that it 
 20   was the environment community that somehow undermined 
 21   the trapping industry.  And it's unfortunate that 
 22   that allegation was certainly misdirected.  It was 
 23   not me, my colleagues or environmental groups that 
 24   flooded the north and certainly was the largest 
 25   contributing factor to the demise of the traditional 
07554
  1   economy in Northern Manitoba. 
  2               So with that general observation out of 
  3   the way, I would like to say a few things about this 
  4   process.  It was our organization's view that, and 
  5   still is our view, that we would have preferred a 
  6   different process.  The preferred process we would 
  7   have liked would have been a full federal panel 
  8   review of the Wuskwatim project.  There is a clear 
  9   absence of a federal presence in this room and 
 10   throughout this hearing process and clearly there are 
 11   federal jurisdictional issues here that are not being 
 12   addressed.  
 13               We have a failure in this process to do 
 14   real environmental assessments.  We have not 
 15   addressed the system's impact of Hydro.  What we have 
 16   is, by way of example, is trying to fix a motor 
 17   engine by changing the spark plugs when you actually 
 18   need to replace the engine.  
 19               So we reserve our involvement in the 
 20   Wuskwatim process and will be engaged in the 
 21   comprehensive review study that is now currently 
 22   under way by the Federal Government.  And once that 
 23   report is made public and the public has an 
 24   opportunity to comment, we will be doing so. 
 25               We will then and have continued to do and 
07555
  1   we will do this again once the report is made public. 
  2   We will request that the Minister conduct a panel, 
  3   federal panel review of the Proposed Wuskwatim 
  4   Project which will address the system impacts.  This 
  5   is possibly known as cumulative impacts. 
  6               So with that, we're also, and were stated 
  7   in the record, that we were not in favour of the 
  8   joint PUB/CEC process nor did we request it nor were 
  9   we consulted on that matter.  We would recommend that 
 10   the CEC recommend to the Minister that there should 
 11   be no further attempts to conduct such a high-bred 
 12   process.  And we also believe that there should be 
 13   much more independency in this process in terms of 
 14   the abilities of this Commission to undertake 
 15   independent research. 
 16               So we would hope that the fiscal 
 17   resources needed to do an independent assessment is 
 18   provided to the Commission in the future.  
 19               The other observation I would like to 
 20   make is a general observation is that we are told 
 21   apparently that this is supposed to be a process in 
 22   accordance with the Canada Manitoba Harmonization 
 23   Agreement on Cooperative Assessments.  Unfortunately, 
 24   the Federal Minister of the Environment had clearly 
 25   stated in a letter May 21st that this process is 
07556
  1   outside of that cooperative agreement.  And so we 
  2   would hope that that is taken into consideration. 
  3               I think on recommendations, I have a few, 
  4   hopefully not a lot, but a few that I do, I hope, are 
  5   a qualitative, and more of a qualitative person 
  6   rather than a quantitative person.  I think that the 
  7   Commission should not undertake its reporting 
  8   requirement to the Minister with a set of 
  9   recommendations for the Minister to approve or not 
 10   approve until certain things are -- certain parallel 
 11   processes that are under way regarding the Wuskwatim 
 12   project have been completed, number one.  That no 
 13   report should be forwarded to the Minister until the 
 14   comprehensive review by the federal assessment has 
 15   concluded so that this Commission can review the 
 16   comprehensive review and possibly take in 
 17   consideration what their findings have so that they 
 18   can also be included in any report that you prepare. 
 19               The second recommendation I think is is 
 20   that no report should be prepared until the Section 
 21   35 consultation processes have concluded.  And that 
 22   any report coming out of that consultation process 
 23   should be reviewed by this Commission and any 
 24   recommendations flowing from a report as a result of 
 25   the Section 35 consultation process should be given 
07557
  1   due consideration in your report to the Minister. 
  2               I also would think that it would be --  
  3   another recommendation that I would propose is that 
  4   your -- how can I best describe this?  Well, I'll 
  5   just attempt to do it.  The next recommendation is is 
  6   that there should be an ability for the participants 
  7   and stakeholders that are involved in this process to 
  8   receive notification of any potential undertakings by 
  9   Manitoba Hydro, once and if a licence is issued for 
 10   the Wuskwatim project, to be notified of any 
 11   deferrals that may be requested under the Act 
 12   absolving Manitoba Hydro from any undertakings that 
 13   may be required of them under the Act.  Currently 
 14   when a licence is issued, the proponents can simply 
 15   write to the Minister requesting that they be 
 16   absolved of certain undertakings in a licence and no 
 17   public notification needs to be given.  I think it's 
 18   incumbent that the participants know what Hydro will 
 19   be requesting in terms of requesting deferrals from 
 20   obligations that may be in the licence that may be 
 21   issued. 
 22               I think it would be incumbent upon this 
 23   Commission to recommend to the Minister that a 
 24   separate and independent body be established to 
 25   monitor Hydro and that Manitoba Hydro, in terms of 
07558
  1   their licence requirements, and not only for their 
  2   licence requirements, but have an obligation to 
  3   report on a yearly basis in terms of their fiduciary 
  4   obligations both under the Master Implementation 
  5   Agreement and the Northern Flood Agreement.  And that 
  6   they would be required to provide yearly reporting 
  7   mechanisms in terms of progress made on fulfilling 
  8   their fiduciary obligations under the Northern Flood 
  9   Agreement and the subsequent Master Implementation 
 10   Agreements. 
 11               I will defer from making a few more 
 12   recommendations and move to another observation.  I 
 13   think in terms of in this process that the proponents 
 14   have been treated much differently than the 
 15   participants and that fairness and equity was not 
 16   achieved in this process in terms of the 
 17   participants' abilities, whether they were funded or 
 18   non-funded, to have the necessary time to respond to 
 19   undertakings, interrogatories, et cetera.  And I 
 20   think this is indicative of a culture in Hydro which, 
 21   for far too long, have -- probably in fact haven't 
 22   viewed the government as a stakeholder in this 
 23   process.  That what we have here is a sacred cow.  
 24   And it baffles me.  
 25               This is the first time that Manitoba has 
07559
  1   had to go under public scrutiny for any of its Hydro 
  2   development processes and certainly there has, to 
  3   date, been no socioeconomic and environmental impact 
  4   assessment of Hydro's systems.  So an independent 
  5   watchdog I think would be a useful tool. 
  6               I would probably also like to recommend 
  7   that in their deliberations that if this is a 
  8   quasi-judicial body, and that's up to interpretation, 
  9   that there is at least a reasonable expectation that 
 10   there are fiduciary responsibilities that need to be 
 11   upheld and a process that needs at least clear sets 
 12   of rules.  And I think the CEC would be remiss in 
 13   this process to improve upon procedural rules in the 
 14   future Commission hearings and establish a set of 
 15   clear enforceable guidelines in terms of a process.  
 16   I know there are certain written procedural 
 17   guidelines and they certainly need to be enhanced 
 18   upon. 
 19               I think another recommendation which 
 20   would be of use in terms of your deliberations and 
 21   possibly writing the report is we need to figure --  
 22   there needs to be an attempt to explore undertakings 
 23   about the system impacts.  This is more than just 
 24   about one dam.  And there is a need to do the 
 25   cumulative assessment because the foundation of the 
07560
  1   Northern Flood Agreement, one cannot know where to go 
  2   in the future unless they have the information of 
  3   what happened in the past, and no undertakings to 
  4   date have sufficiently addressed that problem. 
  5               I would also say that, on a note, that 
  6   quite frankly from our view, there is really not a 
  7   necessary need or a justification to proceed with 
  8   Wuskwatim whatsoever.  And we don't think that 
  9   Manitoba Hydro has provided the basis and evidence 
 10   and enough sufficient data to convince me that they 
 11   need to build a 200 megawatt dam.  
 12               I think there was a real lack of 
 13   exploring potential alternatives, a real lack of 
 14   presenting a demand-side management program or a 
 15   policy.  I think there was a failure to explore 
 16   sufficiently enough climate change issues which will 
 17   definitely have an impact in Northern Manitoba.  I 
 18   would recommend to the Minister -- that you recommend 
 19   to the Minister that Hydro be mandated to come up 
 20   with a clear, concise climate change policy.  
 21               I wish I could, you know, recommend to 
 22   you that there needs to be, you know, a structural 
 23   change in Hydro but that's not your responsibility. 
 24               And finally, I think, because I'm not 
 25   going to take up much more time because I truly 
07561
  1   believe that my energies are going to be much better 
  2   spent in addressing the comprehensive review, that 
  3   there is a need to have more transparency on the part 
  4   of this Crown corporation when it comes to 
  5   information.  This is a Crown corporation and it 
  6   technically should be a bit more, oh, accountable 
  7   would be the word I would use, a little bit more 
  8   accountable than it currently is.  We have 
  9   information being gathered that is being gathered on 
 10   behalf of the Crown on Crown land and yet we have a 
 11   culture in Hydro of, well, secrecy.  It's very hard 
 12   to get information.  It's hard to get maps, it's hard 
 13   to get GIS information.  And quite frankly, as a 
 14   Crown corporation, that information should be made 
 15   readily available to the public. 
 16               So with that, I conclude.  Thank you.
 17               THE CHAIRMAN:  Ms. Avery Kinew. 
 18               MS. AVERY KINEW:  Thank you, Mr. 
 19   Sullivan.  If I could just ask a couple of questions. 
 20   Did the Boreal Forest Network take part in -- I think 
 21   Manitoba Hydro had a couple of years of meetings 
 22   monthly with environmental groups, were you part of 
 23   that?
 24               MR. SULLIVAN:  Yes, I was.
 25               MS. AVERY KINEW:  Leading up to -- 
07562
  1               MR. SULLIVAN:  Yeah.
  2               MS. AVERY KINEW:  Did you feel that that 
  3   was a good exchange, that it led to any exchanges in 
  4   the EIS?  You read the EIS, you saw the results?
  5               MR. SULLIVAN:  Yeah.  Certainly it was -- 
  6   that it was an exchange.  Whether the intent was 
  7   there in terms of a dialogue to come to some mutual 
  8   understanding of people's position is debatable.  I 
  9   think it was a scoping exercise on behalf of 
 10   Manitoba's part to figure out exactly where the 
 11   environment groups may position themselves in this 
 12   debate.  And so the flow of information, two ways, I 
 13   don't think was sufficiently there.
 14               MS. AVERY KINEW:  I keep asking this 
 15   question of different participants because I can't 
 16   understand.  Are you saying that transparency wasn't 
 17   there?  You asked for maps and things like that and 
 18   they weren't given at that time, too?
 19               MR. SULLIVAN:  Yes.
 20               MS. AVERY KINEW:  I see.  So you don't 
 21   feel the EIS responded to the concerns that your 
 22   group had?
 23               MR. SULLIVAN:  Well, to tell you the 
 24   truth, as a non-funded participant, I wasn't going to 
 25   siphon through.  I mean this was an exercise in 
07563
  1   quantity versus quality.  I mean generally, I 
  2   participated in pretty well almost every Clean 
  3   Environment Commission that has been in this province 
  4   in the last eight years for sure.  And it's quite 
  5   easily -- it's detrimental, in fact, to having the 
  6   public engage in reading 10, 20, 30 volumes of 
  7   material.  So there's a disadvantage.  An uneven 
  8   playing field right from the hop.  
  9               Surely, none of you are anywhere near 
 10   versed to pick apart all of the 20 volumes of 
 11   information that Manitoba Hydro has put before you.  
 12   And therefore, you rely, hopefully, on outside 
 13   expertise to guide you and summarize some of this 
 14   stuff.  I rely on, also, outside expertise.  But 
 15   generally, you have to pay for that.  And quite 
 16   frankly, to some degree, consultants get paid by the 
 17   page as opposed by the quality of the work.  So it's 
 18   a balance of quality versus quantity.  And quite 
 19   frankly, I think there are lots of areas where the 
 20   quality of information could be drastically improved 
 21   upon.
 22               MS. AVERY KINEW:  Thanks.  I just have 
 23   two more questions.  I hope you bear with me.  Was 
 24   there any attempt by environmental groups to kind of 
 25   share the load and say this is our, like the forests, 
07564
  1   you'd be the one to take that -- 
  2               MR. SULLIVAN:  I'm sure there was.  My 
  3   position and our organization position was clearly, 
  4   right from the start, was that we would have and 
  5   still prefer to participate in a federal panel 
  6   review.
  7               MS. AVERY KINEW:  Well, that leads to my 
  8   next question.  I didn't really get involved, I think 
  9   I was appointed in June or something.  I went to some 
 10   prehearing in July and there were two federal 
 11   representatives, the Department of Fisheries and 
 12   Environment and it's quite clear that the 
 13   harmonization process was being followed.  So I found 
 14   the letter of May 21st from the Minister of 
 15   Environment a big surprise.  I just want to say that 
 16   to you.
 17               MR. SULLIVAN:  Well, I don't find it a 
 18   surprise.  
 19               MS. AVERY KINEW:  I understood all along 
 20   that the feds had the opportunity but they were, in 
 21   their own way, agreeing to this process and how they 
 22   were going to use it.  Meegwetch, thank you.
 23               THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Nepinak.
 24               MR. NEPINAK:  Mr. Sullivan, just for 
 25   further verification, I think you mentioned Section 
07565
  1   35 of the report, it should be completed.  I wonder 
  2   if you can clarify that a bit for me?
  3               MR. SULLIVAN:  Okay.  Simply put, that 
  4   this Commission, once the hearings -- the public 
  5   component of these hearings conclude will have to 
  6   deliberate, write a report and submit it to the 
  7   Minister.  And then the Minister will decide to issue 
  8   a licence and what kind of undertakings and 
  9   responsibilities Hydro will have under that licence.  
 10   I would suggest that even before you deliberate about 
 11   how you're going to write a report, that that should 
 12   only commence once the Section 35 consultation 
 13   process has concluded, that a report has been 
 14   submitted, and that you have reviewed that report and 
 15   included the considerations that or any 
 16   recommendations or the content of that report in your 
 17   deliberations to write the report to the Minister.
 18               THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Mayer.
 19               MR. MAYER:  Sir, I have some concerns or 
 20   at least some misunderstanding obviously.  You say 
 21   you couldn't get the maps from Hydro.  But then you 
 22   say you didn't look at the volumes of material.  Now, 
 23   I'll give you some comfort, sir.  I read most of the 
 24   material.
 25               MR. SULLIVAN:  Good.
07566
  1               MR. MAYER:  And quite frankly, I found 
  2   the maps I was looking for in the material.  And if I 
  3   didn't know where they were in the material, I asked 
  4   and they were generally there.  So I have some 
  5   concerns when you make a recommendation about 
  6   process, you say you didn't get the material you want 
  7   but you didn't look at the material you got.  I mean 
  8   how can you justify that?
  9               MR. SULLIVAN:  Well, let me clarify my 
 10   statements and reiterate what I did say when Ms. 
 11   Kinew asked me the question here.  She asked me did I 
 12   participate in meetings with Hydro prior to any 
 13   commencement of this process and was there a sharing 
 14   of information?  And I said, well, yes, there was.   
 15   And I did ask for maps and never received them.  I 
 16   did not say I did not look at the maps in the 
 17   Environmental Impact Statement.  Those are two 
 18   separate things.  
 19               And what I'm getting to in terms of the 
 20   transparency of information, regardless if it's this 
 21   process, there is no process.  We're in a day and age 
 22   where maps and GIS systems and the information to 
 23   build GIS systems in terms of the data needed to 
 24   create shape files and create other maps out of 
 25   information based on those shape files can give you a 
07567
  1   different conclusion based on the values in which you 
  2   want to place on that map.  
  3               So having access to the shape files and 
  4   the data, that allows groups who have an interest in 
  5   expressing their values on a map differently than how 
  6   Hydro expresses those values is important.
  7               MR. MAYER:  All right.  Now I'm having a 
  8   little trouble understanding.  Exactly what kind of 
  9   maps were you looking for that you didn't get?
 10               MR. SULLIVAN:  Well -- 
 11               MR. MAYER:  Just give me any one example 
 12   so that at least I can understand what we're talking 
 13   about?
 14               MR. SULLIVAN:  Well, first of all, I'm 
 15   supposed to be doing my closing summaries.  I was 
 16   under no understanding that I was going to be asked 
 17   questions nor am I supposed to answer questions in a 
 18   closing statement.
 19               MR. MAYER:  I'm sorry, I am just trying 
 20   to clarify.
 21               MR. SULLIVAN:  Mr. Mayer, we can have 
 22   this conversation at some other point in time.
 23               MR. MAYER:  Thank you.
 24               THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you very much, Mr. 
 25   Sullivan.  Mr. Grewar, do you have some undertakings 
07568
  1   or documents to file?  
  2               MR. GREWAR:  Yes, Mr. Chairman.  Just 
  3   before the lunch break, if you want, we could enter 
  4   some exhibits.  These are the undertakings that were 
  5   provided by Mr. Topping, Steve Topping of the 
  6   Manitoba Water Stewardship Department.  And I'll just 
  7   read into the record the exhibits and their numbers.  
  8   They will be assigned MC numbers although they are 
  9   filed by the Manitoba Water Stewardship Department, 
 10   however they don't have a series in this proceeding 
 11   and so we'll use the Manitoba Conservation series, 
 12   the MC series.  
 13               MC-1006 is undertaking MC-73, which is to 
 14   provide a copy of the provisions and conditions as 
 15   set out in the interim licence for the diversion of 
 16   water from the Churchill River to the Nelson River 
 17   and the impoundment of water on the Rat River and 
 18   Southern Indian Lake.  That will be MC-1006.  
 19   
 20               (EXHIBIT MC-1006:  Answer to Undertaking  
 21               MC-73, provide a copy of the provisions   
 22               and conditions as set out in the interim  
 23               licence for the diversion of water from   
 24               the Churchill River to the Nelson River   
 25               and the impoundment of water on the Rat   
07569
  1               River and Southern Indian Lake)  
  2   
  3               MR. GREWAR:  1007 will be undertaking 
  4   MC-74 which is advise what the circumstances are in 
  5   the regulations when a licence under the Water Power 
  6   Act is issued and what modifications can be made.  
  7   
  8               (EXHIBIT MC-1007:  Answer to Undertaking  
  9               MC-74, advise what the circumstances are  
 10               in the regulations when a licence under   
 11               the Water Power Act is issued and what    
 12               modifications can be made) 
 13   
 14               MR. GREWAR:  Exhibit number MC-1008 would 
 15   be undertakings MC-75 and MC-76 which are as follows: 
 16   Advise what statutes or regulations or changes have 
 17   taken place that fall under the term regulations of 
 18   the day for the Churchill River Diversion Interim 
 19   licence; and advise whether there have been any 
 20   amendments to the regulations since 1973.  
 21   
 22               (EXHIBIT MC-1008:  Answers to             
 23               undertakings MC-75 and MC-76 which are as 
 24               follows: Advise what statutes or          
 25               regulations or changes have taken place   
07570
  1               that fall under the term regulations of   
  2               the day for the Churchill River Diversion 
  3               Interim licence; and advise whether there 
  4               have been any amendments to the           
  5               regulations since 1973) 
  6   
  7               MR. GREWAR: Exhibit MC-1009 will be 
  8   undertaking MC-77, which was to provide information 
  9   regarding MMF, Manitoba Metis Federation, locals 
 10   being present at consultations to date under stage 2 
 11   of the consultation process.  
 12   
 13               (EXHIBIT MC-1009:  Answer to undertaking  
 14               MC-77, provide information regarding MMF  
 15               locals being present at consultations to  
 16               date under stage 2 of the consultation    
 17              process)  
 18   
 19               MR. GREWAR:  Exhibit MC-1010 will be 
 20   undertaking MWS, Manitoba Water Stewardship, 78 which 
 21   is to advise on the position whether Manitoba Hydro 
 22   is meeting requirements of Missi Falls Licence Regime 
 23   on a regular basis.  
 24    
 25   
07571
  1               (EXHIBIT MC-1010:  Answer to undertaking  
  2               MWS-78, advise on the position whether    
  3               Manitoba Hydro is meeting requirements of 
  4               Missi Falls Licence Regime on a regular   
  5               basis)  
  6   
  7               MR. GREWAR:  And finally, MC-1011 will be 
  8   undertaking MWS, that's Manitoba Water Stewardship 79 
  9   which is to advise if Hydro notifies Water Branch re 
 10   adverse impacts on community of South Indian Lake 
 11   each year.  
 12   
 13               (EXHIBIT MC-1011:  Answer to undertaking  
 14               MWS-79, advise if Hydro notifies Water    
 15               Branch re adverse impacts on community of 
 16               South Indian Lake each year)  
 17   
 18               MR. GREWAR:  So those are the exhibits 
 19   that we discussed this morning, Mr. Chairman.  All of 
 20   those that can be distributed electronically will be 
 21   and really all that won't be distributed 
 22   electronically to all the participants will be the 
 23   attached plans and maps which, as I say, will have to 
 24   be available through the Commission office for those 
 25   parties that wish to see them.  And if they contact 
07572
  1   our office, we'll make arrangements to provide them 
  2   in some form or fashion.  Thank you. 
  3               THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you, Mr. Grewar.  
  4   Mr. Grewar, there is no other statements to be made 
  5   at this time?
  6               MR. GREWAR:  No, Mr. Chairman.  As far as 
  7   we know, that concludes the closing statements of all 
  8   the participant groups that so registered to make 
  9   those presentations.  The only outstanding matter 
 10   then is to hear from Manitoba Hydro/NCN for closing 
 11   statements.  I believe they had indicated they may 
 12   require up to three hours.  So presumably that would 
 13   be the forum for this afternoon.  
 14               MR. CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.  Just before we 
 15   adjourn for lunch, I want to make the observation and 
 16   I did so in regard to some other comments yesterday,  
 17   that some of these late filings or exhibits that are 
 18   being filed, for example yesterday and today, 
 19   obviously, I think it was CASIL that was asking, 
 20   there is opportunity to review those and comment to 
 21   the Commission in the first two weeks after the 
 22   adjournment of today.  
 23               So I realize that no one has had the 
 24   opportunity to look at those until now including 
 25   those that were filed yesterday.  But there remains 
07573
  1   the opportunity to do so in the two weeks after this 
  2   closing. 
  3               With that, we will now adjourn and 
  4   reconvene at one o'clock.  
  5   
  6               (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 11:43 A.M.
  7                AND RECONVENED AT 1:00 P.M.)
  8   
  9               THE CHAIRMAN:  Ladies and gentlemen,
 10   can we take our places, please?
 11               I now call upon Manitoba Hydro/NCN to
 12   make their closing statements.
 13               MR. BEDFORD:  Mr. Chairman, it is our
 14   expectation that we will address you from where we
 15   sit.  If you would prefer that we move to the
 16   front, we could obviously do that, but if you
 17   don't object, we will simply address you from
 18   where we have done so from the last ten weeks.
 19               We will proceed as follows:  My
 20   colleague Ms. Matthews Lemieux will go first.
 21   Ladies always ought to go first.  I will follow
 22   her.  We will conclude as proponents with the
 23   Chief and Councillors of the Nisichawayasihk Cree
 24   Nation addressing you.
 25               THE CHAIRMAN:  Mr. Bedford, if there
07574
  1   is no good reason to do otherwise, for keeping the
  2   format the same, uniform, so that all the good
  3   people in the back can see your expressions and
  4   faces as you make your presentation, if it can be
  5   accommodated, we would prefer if you came to the
  6   front.
  7               Ms. Valerie Matthews Lemieux.
  8               MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX:  We are just
  9   waiting for a couple of the other members of Chief
 10   and Council to join us.  I was going to be
 11   speaking first, followed by my colleague,
 12   Mr. Bedford, and then members of Council will be
 13   speaking as part of our presentation.
 14               THE CHAIRMAN:  Is it possible,
 15   Ms. Lemieux, that you can begin and they can join
 16   you as they come in?
 17               MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX:  Yes, I can go
 18   ahead and start then while we are just waiting.
 19               THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.
 20               MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX:  If we could
 21   have a couple more minutes, and then I will start.
 22               MR. GREWAR:  Mr. Chairman, are we
 23   short of chairs up there?  Perhaps we could get
 24   more chairs?  How many -- I notice that --
 25               MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX:  Okay.  Thank
07575
  1   you very much Commissioners for giving us a few
  2   minutes to get organized.
  3               I would also like to take this
  4   opportunity at the outset to thank you for this
  5   patience throughout this very long process.  I
  6   would also like to thank you for the very
  7   thoughtful and insightful questions that you have
  8   asked throughout this process.  One of the
  9   difficulties, of course, with being last is that
 10   everybody is impatient to get out of the room.  So
 11   we would ask that everybody, including yourselves,
 12   be patient just a little while longer and we will
 13   be finished shortly.
 14               MR. SARGEANT:  We are imminently
 15   patient.
 16               MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX:  We are glad to
 17   hear that.
 18               As my colleague, Mr. Bedford,
 19   indicated, my task this afternoon is to provide an
 20   overview of where we have been over the last
 21   number of months in these proceedings.
 22   Mr. Bedford will then go through in some detail to
 23   highlight some of the issues, more substantive
 24   issues that are dealt with in our written argument
 25   which you should have received by now.  You will
07576
  1   be very glad to know that we don't intend to read
  2   all of those pages on to the record, but we will
  3   leave it for you to review.
  4               Followed by Mr. Bedford, there will be
  5   presentations and final submissions by Chief and
  6   Council.  And we have six members of Council with
  7   us today, five of the members of Council wish to
  8   speak and will be speaking.
  9               As all of you I am sure know, this has
 10   been a very challenging process for all of us,
 11   both personally and professionally.  It has been
 12   very challenging for the community consultants who
 13   take pride in their work, who have been gainfully
 14   employed throughout this process doing interesting
 15   work that we submit has been central throughout
 16   this entire process.  It has been very difficult
 17   for them to hear about their work being rejected
 18   as being inadequate.
 19               We hope that you will acknowledge
 20   their work and acknowledge the important role that
 21   they have played throughout this hearing process,
 22   and also throughout the entire development of the
 23   environmental assessment process.
 24               In addition, I would also like to
 25   acknowledge over and beyond their presentation
07577
  1   that was made on Monday, the important role that
  2   they had for me personally throughout this hearing
  3   process, as have had all of the members of the NCN
  4   Future Development Team, many of whom have
  5   provided technical expertise throughout our
  6   process, our Elder Sam Dysart, Ron Spence -- there
  7   are just so many, and I am not going to try to
  8   thank everybody individually because I am sure I
  9   will forget someone.  But your involvement in this
 10   process has been very, very important and ought to
 11   be acknowledged.  I would like to thank you for
 12   bringing forward all those little notes that you
 13   were handing me throughout the process about
 14   questions and various things to ask.
 15               It has also been a difficult and
 16   challenging process for the youth that appeared.
 17   It was difficult for them to come forward.  They
 18   are bright young minds.  They wanted to be able to
 19   make a presentation, and then their presentations
 20   were minimized, and their input was characterized
 21   as they were simply being used by Hydro.  That is
 22   not acceptable.  We want to indicate clearly on
 23   the record that Manitoba Hydro heard those
 24   presentations at the same time that you, as
 25   Commissioners, heard those presentations.
07578
  1               This has also been a difficult and
  2   challenging process for the many elders who have
  3   participated.  It is difficult for them to
  4   continue to live with the impacts of the Churchill
  5   River Diversion process.  It has also been
  6   difficult for them to watch what has often become
  7   a very torturous conflicted process involving
  8   multiple layers of politics.
  9               I also wish to acknowledge the
 10   difficulties and the challenges that people have
 11   had in terms of attending these many, many days of
 12   hearings in Winnipeg.  For those of us who live in
 13   Winnipeg or the vicinity, it has been much easier.
 14   But as Commissioner Mayer knows, these are
 15   situations where people have to be away from their
 16   families and their homes for long periods of time
 17   in order to participate in this process, and that
 18   ought to be acknowledged.
 19               Now, all of us cannot help but be
 20   moved by the heartfelt stories from Jimmy D.
 21   Spence, from Wellington Spence, and from others
 22   who have participated in this process, who have
 23   spoken about the effects and the impacts of hydro
 24   development on their lives.  One cannot help but
 25   be sympathetic to the impassioned plea for
07579
  1   recognition from Chris Baker.
  2               There is no doubt that the devastating
  3   impacts of hydro development, added to the
  4   misguided residential school problems, Government
  5   assimilation policies, and ongoing hydro
  6   development, have been difficult for many.  As one
  7   Elder said to me this week, how does one weigh
  8   whether impacts are worse from taking away all the
  9   children in a community, or from a project such as
 10   the Churchill River Diversion?
 11               With that in mind I thought back to
 12   Dr. Avery Kinew's comments on March 25th in The
 13   Pas, when she spoke about hurt, anger and mistrust
 14   and what has been done for healing.
 15               Throughout the course of this process,
 16   you have heard what the Nisichawayasihk Cree
 17   Nation has done to promote their own healing.  As
 18   you heard from Chief Primrose and as you have
 19   heard throughout from members of Council,
 20   including Councillor Elvis Thomas, NCN took
 21   positive action to resolve outstanding NFA
 22   matters.  They ultimately decided that no amount
 23   of money could ever be enough to compensate for
 24   past devastation, but they decided that it was
 25   necessary to move on.  They decided that they were
07580
  1   going to take a number of stepping stones that
  2   they viewed as individual stepping stones to their
  3   future prosperity.
  4               You have heard about how they started
  5   with the 1996 agreement, and they built on that in
  6   1998 when they resolved their outstanding Treaty
  7   Land Entitlement commitments.
  8               You heard about that when they
  9   purchased the Mystery Lake Hotel in Thompson, and
 10   how they have been building homes in their
 11   community in Nelson House, how they have been
 12   developing economic initiatives, developing a
 13   service industry, and pursuing other economic
 14   development, including the creation of an urban
 15   reserve in Thompson and the Wuskwatim project.
 16               These have all been constant,
 17   deliberate steps that have been taken by Chief and
 18   Council and the Nisichawayasihk people to improve
 19   the lives of their people now and in the future.
 20   This process was part of, this Article 8 process
 21   was part of the consideration, part of the
 22   compensation that the Nisichawayasihk people
 23   received in the 1996 agreement, and we must never
 24   forget that.
 25               People in NCN have been employed
07581
  1   throughout this process.  NCN has employed
  2   advisors to work with it, both from within the
  3   community and from outside the community.
  4               The deliberations of the NCN Future
  5   Development Team have played an important role.
  6   They have been integral to the entire process that
  7   we have been involved in for a number of years
  8   now, and for those of us involved in this hearing,
  9   for many months.
 10               For NCN, taking all of these steps
 11   have been methods of healing through the
 12   empowerment of their people, through inclusion,
 13   through pride in a job well done.
 14               And NCN has held its own against
 15   Manitoba Hydro in these processes and forged a
 16   relationship with them.  And they are, I would
 17   suggest, right to be proud of what they have done.
 18               They have influenced change through
 19   carefully considered, non-adversarial approaches.
 20   That is consistent, we submit, with their
 21   definition of traditional knowledge, which we have
 22   reproduced again for you on page 50 of our brief.
 23   I think it is very important to remember that
 24   NCN's definition of traditional knowledge -- and I
 25   am just going to refer to some of the parts of
07582
  1   it -- has been demonstrated throughout this
  2   process.
  3               Firstly, the observation and
  4   experience of the land, and we have heard
  5   throughout how NCN has considered this issue.
  6               It is the understanding of NCN's place
  7   in the world how things are connected, including
  8   spirituality and the relationship to the land.
  9   And you will hear more from Chief and Council
 10   about these issues, as with respect to the goals
 11   and aspirations of NCN.  Also, the outlook on the
 12   proposed projects, concerns that we may have, that
 13   NCN may have in the acceptability of the projects
 14   to NCN, and that is something, when you are
 15   formulating your recommendations, we hope that you
 16   will take into account.  It is how NCN looks on
 17   these projects, whether they are acceptable to
 18   NCN, and also what NCN's goals and aspirations
 19   are.  Those are a very important part, we submit,
 20   that ought -- or very important factors that ought
 21   to be taken into consideration in your
 22   recommendations.
 23               We think that rather than focusing on
 24   the sometimes hostile, sometimes critical, and
 25   very difficult process that has emerged through
07583
  1   this proceeding, that it is important instead to
  2   focus upon the remarkable achievement, the very
  3   fact that this First Nation is here with Manitoba
  4   Hydro as a co-proponent in relation to these
  5   projects.
  6               The true story, the real story that we
  7   ought to be focusing on is the ongoing development
  8   of capacity among NCN members.  It is how a
  9   community can decide it is time to move on, to put
 10   the past behind them, although obviously this is
 11   not a unanimous decision, and as members of
 12   Council have recognized, this is a democracy after
 13   all.  However, they have also made clear that they
 14   are not forgetting the lessons from the past.
 15   Remember the presentation from Jimmy D. Spence,
 16   remember the presentation from Wellington Spence,
 17   remember the wise words from Elder Sam Dysart
 18   throughout this process.
 19               What they are saying at the end of the
 20   day is that we want a different way of going
 21   forward.  We want a share of the benefits from our
 22   resources.
 23               We ask that you remember this while
 24   you are reviewing your mandate, which is set out
 25   in the terms of reference that you have from the
07584
  1   Minister.  Remember that your mandate is to review
  2   the areas that are set out in those terms of
  3   reference and to make recommendations whether the
  4   Wuskwatim projects should be licensed under the
  5   Environment Act, and if so, under what conditions?
  6               We have set out to assist you on pages
  7   96 and 97 of the brief, five points where we have
  8   summarized that we in fact believe that each of
  9   the factors have been considered by you, the
 10   Commissioners throughout this process, and that
 11   you ought to be satisfied that you can go forward
 12   and make a recommendation that Environment Act
 13   licenses should be issued.
 14               NCN has acknowledged throughout this
 15   process the dynamic debate about social and
 16   economic issues is healthy and that it welcomes
 17   such debate.  However, there has been much
 18   rhetoric from the opponents to the project.  But
 19   we submit there has been no credible evidence that
 20   would support a recommendation not to issue the
 21   Environment Act Licenses that NCN and Manitoba
 22   Hydro are seeking.
 23               I would like to just briefly review
 24   some of the participants' positions in these
 25   proceedings.  Firstly, there is a CAC/MSOS, which
07585
  1   we submit is really tacit support for both NFAAT
  2   and the EIS, although they do recommend at the end
  3   of the day that you ought to proceed with caution
  4   and due diligence.  And my colleague Mr. Bedford
  5   will be addressing some of the submissions that we
  6   receive after the oral presentation yesterday on
  7   the EIS.
  8               With respect to TREE, of course their
  9   position is somewhat contradictory to that of
 10   CAC/MSOS.  Again, we submit on the basis of the
 11   evidence before you that there really is no new
 12   evidence that has come forward from TREE that
 13   ought to prevent you from issuing this license --
 14   or recommending that this license be issued.
 15               With respect to Pimicikamak, there is
 16   no evidence that has been brought forward by the
 17   Pimicikamak Cree Nation that would put you in the
 18   position that you must conclude -- or must come to
 19   the conclusion, I should say, that the licenses
 20   ought not to be recommended.  I would ask that you
 21   carefully weigh Ms. Kempton's statements at pages
 22   2203 to 2204 of the transcript, where she
 23   indicated that she was happy that so much
 24   attention was being paid to Pimicikamak's U.S.
 25   Campaign of Truth, even in regard to witnesses who
07586
  1   are not here on behalf of Pimicikamak in any
  2   capacity.  I would ask you to consider that in
  3   light of the witnesses that you heard,
  4   particularly Timothy Rudnicki, Pimicikamak U.S.
  5   lobbyist, Will Gilmore, who you heard works for
  6   Pimicikamak, and that he first met Pimicikamak in
  7   Wisconsin during a dispute that NCN was also
  8   involved with over the Arrowhead line.  Senators
  9   Kubly and Anderson, and as you have heard, they
 10   have been sponsors of various Pimicikamak Just
 11   Energy and other U.S. environmental groups'
 12   legislation in the Minnesota Legislature, that NCN
 13   and TCN have also been involved in opposing.
 14   Steven Hoffman from the University of Minnesota,
 15   that was one of the papers that you were asked to
 16   read that came from the University of Winnipeg
 17   Conference, and of course, Dr. Peter Kulchyski,
 18   and my clients are going to be referring in more
 19   detail to some of the concerns in relation to his
 20   testimony.
 21               Furthermore, recall the link that was
 22   made at the September hearing, between Ken Bradly,
 23   ME3, the Just Energy Campaign in the United States
 24   and DRSIL and CASIL.  We submit those witnesses
 25   were all brought forward for purposes that were
07587
  1   completely unrelated to the issues and terms of
  2   reference that were before you.  And I will be
  3   referring in a few moments to the Minnesota Court
  4   of Appeal decision.
  5               In addition, there is a second
  6   category of witnesses that were offered by Ms.
  7   Whelan Enns, that was Mr. McCully, who I found
  8   actually personally to be an interesting witness.
  9   However, again, he didn't have an opportunity to
 10   really review any of the material in our
 11   proceedings, and was only able to provide you with
 12   very general information about the World
 13   Commission on Dams, which I can assure the
 14   Commission, my clients are very familiar with.
 15               There is also Mr. Bayne, Mr. Hornung,
 16   Mr. Soprovich and Mr. Nichols, and my colleague
 17   Doug Bedford will be referring to each of these in
 18   somewhat more detail.
 19               Again, they were generalist
 20   commentary, there were complaints that they had
 21   lack of access to materials.  From our perspective
 22   their reports were either late or there were no
 23   reports, and there was simply a disregard of the
 24   procedural rules that were established by this
 25   Commission.
07588
  1               We heard a litany of complaints about
  2   the lack of funding and overcapacity.  However, we
  3   were on the receiving end of over 2000 IR
  4   questions that we had to respond to in some
  5   fashion, and ensure that they were consistent,
  6   that they answered the questions, and we kept the
  7   process going.
  8               In addition to that, we also had, we
  9   as NCN, had several hundred more questions that
 10   were brought forward from DRSIL, from Carol
 11   Kobliski, from Reverend Hart.  Plus we had the
 12   ongoing questions from the community consultants,
 13   the ongoing small group meetings that are taking
 14   place as part of the overall process, and we had
 15   to respond to all of them.  We have done the best
 16   of our ability to ensure that there are answers to
 17   the questions that have been asked, and we will
 18   continue to attempt to respond to the questions
 19   that are being asked.
 20               There was a response, I believe it is
 21   Exhibit 1035, it is either 1025 or 1035, the
 22   response that Nisichawayasihk gave to Vern
 23   Anderson's letter that was referred to yesterday
 24   in their argument, and that was tendered in these
 25   proceedings, in addition to that.  So those
07589
  1   questions were all answered and the responses were
  2   filed in these proceedings.
  3               You also have the guidebook that is a
  4   compilation of the questions that came forward
  5   from the community meetings, from the community
  6   consultants, and from Ms. Kobliski, that were put
  7   into a format that was distributed to NCN members
  8   living in Nelson House, South Indian Lake, and
  9   elsewhere.
 10               There are many themes that you have
 11   heard throughout these many long weeks of hearing
 12   that are simply outside your terms of reference.
 13   I am going to just briefly refer to some of those
 14   themes.
 15               First you have heard about past hydro
 16   development unrelated to Wuskwatim, and you have
 17   heard about that in the context of active NFA
 18   claims.  There is an NFA arbitrator.  The NFA
 19   arbitrator is Madam Justice Krindle, who is one of
 20   the jurists, or was a jurist for a long time in
 21   this Province.  Those claims properly belong
 22   within the dispute resolution mechanisms under the
 23   Northern Flood Agreement.  They are not matters
 24   that are within your jurisdiction.
 25               You have also heard another theme,
07590
  1   whether in general the Manitoba Metis Federation
  2   is the only representative of Metis people in this
  3   Province.  Again, that is clearly beyond your
  4   jurisdiction to make a determination upon that
  5   issue, which is fraught with a number of complex
  6   legal and political issues.
  7               Another theme has been whether Hydro
  8   is in compliance with its existing licenses.  And
  9   you heard a presentation from CASIL on this point.
 10   That again, we submit, is beyond the scope of the
 11   terms of reference that are before you.
 12               You have also heard another theme, and
 13   that is whether Hydro paid adequate compensation
 14   for past adverse effects on South Indian Lake.
 15   Again, we submit that that issue is beyond your
 16   jurisdiction.
 17               You have also heard another theme,
 18   which is Hydro's general position on protected
 19   areas for Manitoba Wildlands.  Just on that point,
 20   I did note on the record when I was reviewing the
 21   transcript from Monday that Ms. Whelan Enns
 22   presented herself as only being here on behalf of
 23   Manitoba Wildlands.  I am not clear whether -- I
 24   know at the beginning the funded participant was
 25   Canadian Nature Federation, but I am not aware now
07591
  1   quite frankly who the participant is, whether it
  2   is Manitoba Wildlands or Canadian Nature
  3   Federation, and that might be something that
  4   perhaps ought to be clarified.
  5               The next theme is how Manitoba
  6   Conservation and CEAA maintain their registries.
  7   Again, you may be able to make some
  8   recommendations about this, but we would submit it
  9   is really beyond your terms of reference.
 10               You have heard plenty, more than you
 11   probably ever wanted to hear about the internal
 12   politics involved in the Nisichawayasihk Cree
 13   Nation.  Those internal politics that have been
 14   brought forward by DRSIL, CASIL, O-Pipon-Na-Piwin
 15   Cree Nation and others.  We also submit obviously
 16   that that is well beyond your jurisdiction, and my
 17   clients will deal with that in more detail
 18   momentarily.
 19               You have heard about the separation
 20   between Nisichawayasihk and O-Pipon-Na-Piwin.
 21   That again is beyond your jurisdiction to deal
 22   with.
 23               I would also bring to your attention
 24   that in addition to these number of themes that
 25   were repetitive throughout the hearings, there is
07592
  1   internal inconsistency in relation to a number of
  2   the positions that have been brought forward.  We
  3   draw to your attention, for example, CASIL's
  4   position, and we have tried to make some sense of
  5   it, but at this stage, as we understand the
  6   position, it is we are mostly NCN members, but we
  7   don't want to be NCN members, but we want to speak
  8   for ourselves, but we want all the rights and
  9   benefits of being NCN members, including the
 10   rights and benefits which we would not otherwise
 11   be entitled to if we were not NCN members.
 12               That is an inconsistency, and it is
 13   difficult, and it has been very difficult for us
 14   to listen to, and it has been very difficult I am
 15   sure for the Commission.
 16               All I can say on that point is it
 17   reminds me somewhat of the Sovereignty Association
 18   Debate that took place in Quebec.  I don't say it
 19   lightly, but hopefully we will have something
 20   maybe akin to a Clarity Act arrangement so we will
 21   get some definitive statement on this particular
 22   issue in the future.
 23               You have also heard from
 24   O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation that it wants a share
 25   of the Wuskwatim project, that it speaks for
07593
  1   itself.  However, in the 1995 Memorandum of
  2   Understanding, which you have before you as an
  3   exhibit from the motion, it was indicated that
  4   South Indian Lake would keep their monies under
  5   the CASIL agreement, and NCN would retain their
  6   benefits under the 1996 agreement upon separation.
  7   None of the parties before the Clean Environment
  8   Commission, including you as Commissioners, can
  9   resolve those issues.  They are clearly beyond the
 10   scope of your mandate, and they are matters that
 11   will have to be dealt with in separate processes
 12   between Nisichawayasihk and the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin
 13   people.
 14               Then you heard another inconsistency
 15   from DRSIL and the Justice Seekers of NCN.  What
 16   they are calling for is supervised elections by a
 17   third party.  We would point out that this is very
 18   much an internal inconsistency, given that these
 19   are the same people who have appeared in front of
 20   you and who have taken exception to the fact that
 21   a third party, namely the Federal Court of Appeal
 22   in this case, upheld the election of Chief and
 23   Council pursuant to the election code.
 24               MR. MAYER:  The Court of Appeal -- I
 25   thought the Federal Court of Appeal was
07594
  1   withdrawing, or dismissed for failure to pursue
  2   it?
  3               MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX:  That's right.
  4   You have all of those documents in front of you.
  5               Again, my point is simply that there
  6   is an internal inconsistency saying that we should
  7   have self-governance, we should have a third party
  8   supervise, but then not where there is a third
  9   party under an election code that has been
 10   approved by the Nisichawayasihk people saying,
 11   well, we are not going to accept the outcome of
 12   that supervision by the courts.
 13               Then I noted with interest actually,
 14   the TREE submission, in particular their
 15   recommendations.  And you will note that there is
 16   a theme of unfinished business, it is like a
 17   slogan a bit throughout their final comments.  The
 18   only thing that I would point out here, and partly
 19   in jest, but partly seriously, is that that was
 20   not a good slogan for the Blue Bombers two years
 21   ago, and we will submit that it will not prevail
 22   here either.  Although, we do want to say that we
 23   welcome the professional and responsible
 24   participation of Mr. Miller and his expert in
 25   these proceedings.  Nisichawayasihk will be
07595
  1   pursuing some of these initiatives further in
  2   relation to DSM.  There were some very thoughtful
  3   issues that were raised.
  4               With respect to the Manitoba Metis
  5   Federation, we want to acknowledge the political
  6   difficulties facing Mr. Chartrand and his
  7   colleagues.  We understand the fight for
  8   recognition of rights.  We understand that it is a
  9   difficult and ongoing process, but that does not
 10   mean in our acknowledgment that we understand how
 11   difficult it is to pursue those rights that those
 12   arguments ought to be accepted by you.  And we
 13   have set out our response in much more detail in
 14   our written submission, and my colleague,
 15   Mr. Bedford, will be dealing with this in greater
 16   detail.
 17               At the end of the day, the conclusion
 18   that you are left with by the EIS panel was that
 19   there would be no change in their conclusions
 20   because there was no pathway.  And we would ask
 21   that you have regard to the evidence that is
 22   before you in considering these issues.
 23               With respect to CASIL and the MMF's
 24   position that there is an obligation on the
 25   proponents to educate ourselves about -- and
07596
  1   essentially it was you are to educate yourselves
  2   about us and our issues, even if we are
  3   non-responsive to your invitations to meet, and
  4   the response seems to be, well, try harder, and
  5   find a way, the obligation is on you.  I submit to
  6   you that that simply is not a tenable or
  7   reasonable argument that can or ought to be
  8   sustained.  In essence, they are seeking an
  9   equitable remedy, but, again, the facts
 10   demonstrate they have not come before you with
 11   clean hands.  There were in fact steps taken where
 12   there were either obstruction of the process,
 13   attempts to frustrate the process, or there was
 14   failure to respond.  Again, in our submission, you
 15   will see that there is reference to the cases and
 16   the case authority that indicates that parties
 17   cannot claim, cannot fail to respond, cannot
 18   engage when they are provided with an opportunity
 19   to do so, and then claim failure to engage in any
 20   meaningful consultation so as to thwart the very
 21   issuance of, or in this case the recommendations
 22   for Environment Act Licenses.  That would simply
 23   be unfair, unreasonable, and ought not to be
 24   accepted.
 25               We hope that you will recommend the
07597
  1   Wuskwatim project be approved.  As we have said,
  2   to do otherwise would be simply unfair and not
  3   connected to the evidence, given all of the very
  4   many days of hearings that you have had before
  5   you.
  6               There have been many opportunities,
  7   and Commission counsel has ensured that where
  8   participants did not challenge the evidence, that
  9   those challenges were undertaken to the evidence.
 10   They were tested.  Our evidence that we brought
 11   before you was thoroughly tested, we submit, in
 12   many, many days of hearings.
 13               We also would suggest that it is
 14   important that those who have fostered unfounded
 15   controversy and conflict throughout this process
 16   should not be unduly rewarded, as it can lead to
 17   an empowerment of a very small vocal minority
 18   which does not represent the goals and aspirations
 19   of a majority of the community in this case.
 20   While it is important to obtain a balance, you
 21   cannot, we submit, and ought not to give undue
 22   weight to that conflict and fostering of
 23   controversy that has been an underlying theme in
 24   these proceedings.
 25               I would just like to make a few more
07598
  1   points in summary.  One of the activities, of
  2   course, and we have all heard lots of rhetoric
  3   throughout these proceedings, is that rhetoric
  4   raises impossible expectations, but it does
  5   nothing to foster meaningful dialogue.  It does
  6   nothing to foster consideration of the real issues
  7   that are before you.  And it is important to note,
  8   we submit, that the critics of the Wuskwatim
  9   proposals have offered no reasonable alternatives.
 10               You have heard about the Quebec Peace
 11   of the Braves Agreement, and Chief Primrose will
 12   refer to that in more detail.  However, we have,
 13   through the evidence that we have submitted before
 14   you, demonstrated that the Quebec agreement is not
 15   a true comparison.
 16               Ultimately, the position that is
 17   recommended to you by the critics and the
 18   opponents to the Wuskwatim project is stop the
 19   project until all out of scope issues can be dealt
 20   with.
 21               The complete answer to those
 22   submissions, we suggest is found in the Minnesota
 23   Court of Appeal decision which we filed as
 24   Manitoba Hydro/NCN exhibit 1029, on the last page
 25   of that decision.  What the Court said there
07599
  1   was -- and remembering it was dealing with many of
  2   the same parties involved in proceedings in
  3   Minnesota for a number of years, and all of the
  4   history of those proceedings are reviewed, and of
  5   course those proceedings also involved Manitoba
  6   Hydro and the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation and
  7   Tataskweyak Cree Nation, as well as Pimicikamak.
  8   What the Court said is that it has to be pointed
  9   out that the realtors, and the realtor was
 10   referring to Pimicikamak,
 11               "The realtors real agenda is not a
 12               contested case hearing because a
 13               hearing does not accomplish anything.
 14               What realtor wants to accomplish is
 15               hopefully to block X-cel Energy from
 16               buying power.  If that happens, the
 17               loss of that contract will put
 18               economic pressure on Manitoba Hydro to
 19               satisfy realtors' compensation issues
 20               which, if settled, would then not
 21               interfere with Manitoba Hydro
 22               contracting with X-cel Energy.  In
 23               essence, this lawsuit by realtor is a
 24               collateral end run around the NFA
 25               which contains within its four corners
07600
  1               realtors' remedies."
  2               We would submit that in response to
  3   many of the out of scope issues that have been
  4   brought before you, there is an NFA process, there
  5   is an NFA arbitrator, as I have indicated, one of
  6   the eminent jurists in this Province is now the
  7   NFA arbitrator.  That is the jurisdiction in which
  8   those matters ought to be addressed.
  9               The court goes on and says:
 10               "The environmental and socioeconomic
 11               impacts caused by the Manitoba
 12               project..."
 13   and there they were referring to CRD, Lake
 14   Winnipeg Regulation,
 15               "... are capable of being addressed
 16               under the NFA.  It is possible there
 17               are merits to realtors' claims for
 18               compensation and for more attention to
 19               their needs.  That issue is not before
 20               us."
 21   We submit that is an issue, again, that is under
 22   the Northern Flood Agreement.
 23               NCN requests that you recommend, as I
 24   have said, that the Minister of Conservation issue
 25   the Environment Act Licenses.  NCN also requests
07601
  1   that if you recommend that the licenses be issued,
  2   that you carefully consider the recommendations
  3   that you will make in relation to the second part,
  4   second step -- or I should say, the second part of
  5   your mandate that is set out in the terms of
  6   reference.
  7               NCN would like to recommend -- would
  8   like the CEC to recommend that there be continued
  9   incorporation of traditional knowledge and local
 10   knowledge throughout the project construction and
 11   post project periods.
 12               NCN is also supportive of ongoing
 13   monitoring and research within its Resource
 14   Management Area, as has been indicated throughout
 15   this process.
 16               We also hope that the Commission will
 17   reflect upon its own procedures, and in
 18   particular, the IR process, and whether in fact
 19   there cannot be better ways to deal with
 20   repetition, duplication in the questioning that
 21   occurred throughout the course of this process, so
 22   that there will be a balance between the rights of
 23   the proponents who come before you, as well as a
 24   need for the public to participant actively in
 25   these processes.
07602
  1               We hope that you will also consider
  2   the comments about the documentation, and in
  3   particular what we heard this morning, well, there
  4   was too much documentation.  Part of the problem,
  5   of course, that we as proponents faced was that so
  6   much of the documentation ended up evolving as a
  7   result of the many, many questions, over 2000
  8   questions, that we were asked, as well as the
  9   requests for further information that continued to
 10   arise throughout these proceedings.
 11               The difficulty that we have faced is
 12   that in trying to be responsive, we are now being
 13   criticized for providing too much information to
 14   the various participants.  We submit that that is
 15   another inconsistency that is found throughout the
 16   various presentations.
 17               I am now at the end pretty much of my
 18   submission.  I would like to, however, take a few
 19   moments to thank a number of other participants in
 20   these proceedings.  First, I would like to thank
 21   all of the participants who did participate,
 22   including CASIL and O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation
 23   and others.  I think it takes time and effort and
 24   I think it has been a better process.
 25               I would like to thank the Hydro team,
07603
  1   and also Environmental Management Team, not just
  2   the four people on the panel, but all the
  3   specialists who are in the background who are
  4   helping as we prepare.  I appreciate their
  5   diligence, their cooperation, their ability to
  6   find solutions to bridge the gaps between two very
  7   difficult clients -- different, I shouldn't say
  8   difficult -- different clients.  It was very
  9   difficult.  As Councillor Thomas reminds me, they
 10   can be difficult clients.  I would also like to
 11   thank the co-counsel who have been involved, my
 12   colleague, Elliot Leven from my office, as well as
 13   Bob Bettner, Bob Adkins, Sheryl Rosenberg, and of
 14   course Doug Bedford.  It is very difficult when
 15   you are thrown into a situation where you have to
 16   really be able to work together in these kind of
 17   circumstances, and I really think that people have
 18   done that well, and I think that should be
 19   acknowledged.
 20               In addition to that, it has of course
 21   been a challenge working so closely with others,
 22   not only given the diverse views among so many
 23   different people that have been working together
 24   as part of our ongoing team, but through each of
 25   the various layers of politics that you have been
07604
  1   exposed to.  However, we really are proud of this
  2   team.  They came together as part of a cohesive
  3   one team, we became one team throughout this long
  4   process, and that's been a strength and an
  5   achievement we submit that ought to be
  6   acknowledged.
  7               In addition, on behalf of Campbell
  8   MacInnes, who is our consulting engineer for NCN,
  9   Bruce Hecky and Bob Letterman, who are our
 10   financial and business analysts, myself, we would
 11   like to thank Chief and Council and the Future
 12   Development Team, the community consultants, and
 13   the individual members of NCN who have shown
 14   ongoing confidence in us over the years as we have
 15   worked our way, not just through this process, but
 16   when we started way back in 1991, when we were
 17   first looking at a commercial fishing settlement,
 18   when we were looking at claim 38 and how to move
 19   forward and try and go into a comprehensive
 20   resolution of all of the outstanding claims.  We
 21   really appreciate the confidence and the privilege
 22   we have been given in being able to work with you
 23   over this long period of time.  It cannot be, I
 24   don't think, understated how important it is to be
 25   able to have had the privilege of being invited
07605
  1   into the homes of so many of the NCN members, to
  2   meet spouses and children and grandchildren and
  3   grannies and grandpas and cousins and aunts and
  4   uncles, and to listen and learn and support their
  5   efforts to become self-governing and
  6   self-sufficient.  So with that, I thank you.
  7               Mr. Bedford.
  8               MR. BEDFORD:  Having listened to a
  9   particular argument on Monday of this week, I have
 10   decided to start by giving you the bad news first.
 11   I am not going to offer you a raise.
 12               I will not, as you have heard, read
 13   the lengthy argument that we have prepared.  Warn
 14   you as well that what I am about to say isn't
 15   really going to parallel what is in that written
 16   argument either, so there is little point trying
 17   to follow by looking at the written argument.
 18               However, I commend it to your
 19   attention.  A lot of hard work went into preparing
 20   that document, and in the end result what is in
 21   there is likely a lot more important than what I
 22   am about to say, and I rather suspect that what I
 23   am going to say over the next hour is not going to
 24   be long remembered.
 25               However, from my personal perspective,
07606
  1   the approach I am taking this afternoon has the
  2   advantage to me that that wonderful group of
  3   people who has surrounded me for the last ten
  4   weeks has not had an opportunity to firm and shape
  5   what I am about to say.  Accordingly, this is
  6   going to be a lot more exciting for them.  Having
  7   just listened to Ms. Matthews Lemieux, I realize
  8   regrettably there has been inadequate liaison with
  9   my co-counsel on what I am about to say, so this
 10   is going to be much more exciting for her as well.
 11               Conversely, to trade on a remark that
 12   my friend Mr. Byron Williams used yesterday, this
 13   approach also makes my future at Manitoba Hydro
 14   "fraught with uncertainty."
 15               For some ten weeks now my witnesses
 16   have had to endure the not always pleasant
 17   experience of watching and listening to all of the
 18   written material they put before you being put
 19   under a microscope and being criticized day after
 20   day.  And I, and we here today are very conscious
 21   that we have now arrived at the time where it is
 22   your turn to sit down and start writing.  I am
 23   sure you do so with some trepidation that all of
 24   us will eventually look with very critical eyes at
 25   what you choose to write.  My only regret is that,
07607
  1   of course, we will have no opportunity to have you
  2   sit where I am sitting and to begin asking you
  3   questions.
  4               I see it as my practical role as a
  5   lawyer to review with you at this time some,
  6   because I don't have time to review them all, of
  7   the issues and the evidence that have been put
  8   before you over ten weeks.  I will make a modest
  9   effort to sort what I think you heard from what
 10   some people are already beginning to think you
 11   heard.  I noted with interest yesterday that
 12   already some participants are convinced that
 13   certain things are not on the record when, of
 14   course, they are.  It is my hope that I can assist
 15   you to some degree in answering the question why,
 16   why ought you to recommend the Wuskwatim projects.
 17               Mr. Williams, in looking at the need
 18   for and alternatives evidence and documents, tells
 19   you that the record of what my client and the
 20   Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation propose is "fraught
 21   with uncertainty."
 22               Well, I say in reply that of course
 23   the future is always uncertain, but in this case I
 24   say that this future is not fraught with
 25   uncertainty.  When you propose a new project, you
07608
  1   of course have to deal with uncertainty, some say
  2   with risk, and you do that if you are a business
  3   person by using a variety of tools that business
  4   planners know well.  You use IRRs, internal rates
  5   of return, and if you plan at Manitoba Hydro, you
  6   use something that was described as the SPLASH
  7   model.  You use and test your plans with
  8   sensitivities.  You engage an outside consultant,
  9   this time it was Booth Belle Robb, to tell you
 10   whether or not the estimating techniques that you
 11   are using are sound.  You use four independent
 12   forecasts to assist in determining the export
 13   price, because the export price is vital in the
 14   project that you are proposing.  You also do a
 15   series of pro forma financial statements for
 16   Manitoba Hydro, because you want to know how, if
 17   you incur the costs of building this dam, if you
 18   incur the expense of borrowing the money to build
 19   the dam, because most of this billion dollars that
 20   people talk about will in fact be money borrowed
 21   by Manitoba Hydro in capital markets, you ask how
 22   will this affect the stability of Manitoba Hydro,
 23   and you also run those financial statements
 24   because you ask, will there be any benefit
 25   whatsoever to the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro if
07609
  1   all of this money is borrowed and if this very
  2   expensive project goes forward?
  3               You do all this incidentally, and
  4   compare it with a reference case that is a
  5   do-nothing reference case.  Do you or do you not
  6   build the Wuskwatim dam?  What will the picture
  7   look like if we don't build the project vis-a-vis
  8   the ratepayers and the financial stability of
  9   Manitoba Hydro.  Of course, you heard that the do
 10   nothing scenario was don't build Wuskwatim until
 11   you have to build it in order to meet the domestic
 12   demand of Manitobans for electrical energy.  You
 13   do all of this in order to modify the risks
 14   inherent in the future.  As Ms. Pollitt-Smith told
 15   us, you also bring to bear, in dealing with that
 16   uncertainty, experience.  As I sat and listened to
 17   her, I had wished momentarily that Mr. Williams
 18   had listened to her before he sat down to
 19   emphasize the uncertainty we face.
 20               We at Manitoba Hydro are not strangers
 21   to the costs of planning and building dams and
 22   hydro generating facilities and the associated
 23   transmission lines that go with them.
 24               Of course, not all of the uncertainty
 25   is gone, not all of the risk can be removed by
07610
  1   using these financial tools that we illustrated
  2   for you over several weeks three months ago, when
  3   you reviewed the need for and alternatives, but we
  4   have removed a lot of the risk.
  5               Why build the Wuskwatim dam?  Build it
  6   because it will be profitable for Manitoba Hydro's
  7   ratepayers and for the members of the
  8   Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation.
  9               I am flattered, I suppose, that my
 10   friend Mr. Williams has a more vivid recollection
 11   than I do of one of my cross-examinations.  The
 12   point I was trying to make during that
 13   cross-examination on the subject of what some
 14   people have called portfolio analysis is that
 15   indeed, yes, even more economic analysis of the
 16   alternatives to building a hydro dam would have
 17   been and can be useful.  But knowing more about
 18   the costs and the economics of those alternatives
 19   would not have changed the fact that Wuskwatim is
 20   profitable.
 21               You have not been asked, you five
 22   Commissioners, by the Minister of Conservation to
 23   recommend which of the alternatives is more
 24   profitable, so that the Minister presumably could
 25   direct Manitoba Hydro and NCN to pursue that
07611
  1   alternative.  You fortunately don't have the
  2   dilemma of choosing.  There is no debate that wind
  3   energy has merit.  Manitoba Hydro is pursuing wind
  4   energy.  There is no debate that demand-side
  5   management has real merit and that Manitoba Hydro
  6   is pursuing demand-side management initiatives.
  7               My colleague, Mr. Kuczek, is very
  8   anxious that I forward to you the good news that
  9   we at Manitoba Hydro just don't talk about
 10   demand-side management before the Clean
 11   Environment Commission.  He is busy today, and he
 12   was yesterday, pursuing demand-side initiatives.
 13   Indeed, we have more people at Manitoba Hydro
 14   working on demand-side initiatives than we do in
 15   the legal department, fortunately.  Our load
 16   forecasting has improved.
 17               Why approve Wuskwatim?  I suggest to
 18   you, approve Wuskwatim because it does not require
 19   a choice between hydro generation and wind
 20   generation, it does not require a choice between
 21   hydro generation and demand-side management.
 22               Over the course of this hearing
 23   several parties asked where are the environmental
 24   assessments of these alternatives to hydro power?
 25   I must observe that those who asked that question
07612
  1   have forgotten the history of this particular
  2   process.  The EIS guidelines which govern why we
  3   are here required an environmental assessment of
  4   the Wuskwatim projects when those guidelines were
  5   issued in the spring of 2002.
  6               At that time, as the guidelines
  7   themselves indicate, it was thought that a review
  8   of the need for and alternatives of the project
  9   was headed to a different place, in a different
 10   room, called the Public Utilities board.  Now,
 11   through no fault of the Commissioners or anyone
 12   here, in the spring of 2003, presumably wiser
 13   parties determined that the need for and
 14   alternatives would be diverted to this room.  But
 15   there is nothing in the terms of reference that
 16   suggested that in addition you are now assigned
 17   the task, or that we as proponents were assigned
 18   the task of reviewing the environmental
 19   implications of pursuing any of those alternatives
 20   to hydro generation.
 21               I watched you struggle as my witnesses
 22   on the EIS panel worked their way through the
 23   subject of cumulative effects analysis.  The time
 24   has come for me to reveal that no one in this room
 25   has been more perplexed by this topic than me.  I
07613
  1   can also reveal to all of you that I was trained
  2   not firstly as a lawyer, but as a historian.
  3   Because that was my early training, the way I
  4   think and approach any problem in life is always
  5   chronological.  I always ask what was it like in
  6   the beginning?  What happened?  And why did it
  7   happen?
  8               And as I read the EIS volumes, and as
  9   I listened to the testimony, I kept asking myself,
 10   why can't you begin on this environmental
 11   assessment and this cumulative effects assessment
 12   by determining what was before the Churchill River
 13   Diversion, what happened because of it, and why
 14   did that happen?  The more I tried to approach
 15   cumulative effects assessment in this fashion, the
 16   more confused I became.  I will tell you, it
 17   wasn't until I visited Mr. Stu Davies' lab that it
 18   began to dawn upon me that the problem in the
 19   approach I was trying to take was me and the way I
 20   was thinking.
 21               Mr. Davies showed me some of the
 22   hundreds, in fact, I think there are thousands,
 23   but he showed me some of the hundreds of studies
 24   done on aquatic aspects of the Churchill River
 25   Diversion.  And I asked myself and asked him
07614
  1   frankly, how do you decide in those hundreds of
  2   studies what is important to read in them for the
  3   Wuskwatim projects?  I realized on the subject of
  4   cumulative effects analysis that if we were to
  5   start by reading those hundreds of reports, that
  6   we would be left with a massive detail, some of it
  7   important to understanding Wuskwatim, and much of
  8   it not.
  9               I came to understand that where one
 10   had to start with, what is Wuskwatim?  Well, of
 11   course, it is the construction of a dam, a
 12   generating station that will hold turbines, and
 13   the construction of transmission lines and the
 14   clearing of a path to construct those transmission
 15   lines.
 16               When you know that that, in simple
 17   fashion, is what Wuskwatim is, you then ask:  What
 18   will you affect if you go forward and you build
 19   this dam and these transmission lines?  The
 20   answers start to become a little easier, and the
 21   confusion begins to sort itself out.  Well, you
 22   will obviously affect Wuskwatim Lake, and you're
 23   going to affect Wuskwatim Falls and Taskinigup
 24   Falls, and you're going to affect the fish in
 25   Wuskwatim Lake, and you will have to be concerned
07615
  1   about sediment in Wuskwatim Lake, and you are
  2   going to have to worry about the debris along the
  3   shore of Wuskwatim Lake.
  4               Now we reach the stage where you can
  5   look to the past.  Now you begin to know which of
  6   the hundreds, indeed perhaps which of the
  7   thousands of studies done on the Churchill River
  8   Diversion must be revisited.  You begin to
  9   understand that you do need to look at what
 10   happened with respect to mercury and the fish,
 11   what was it like before the Churchill River
 12   Diversion, and what happened as a result of that
 13   project with respect to mercury and fish?
 14               You begin to talk about peat islands,
 15   and were they there before the Churchill River
 16   Diversion, and what is the trend with peat
 17   islands?  And sediment in Wuskwatim Lake, you need
 18   to know what was it like before, and the sediment
 19   that is in the lake.  You can begin to talk about
 20   Balsam Fir and White Spruce that grow along the
 21   shorelines of the Burntwood River and how they
 22   have been affected.  Which of these variables will
 23   interact with what will result when you build
 24   Wuskwatim?  Will Wuskwatim add to a trend that is
 25   underway with respect to growing, or reducing
07616
  1   sediment in the water, with respect to increasing
  2   or decreasing mercury in the fish?  Will Wuskwatim
  3   reverse a trend that is observable in the
  4   environment today?  Where there is an interaction,
  5   a linkage, a connection, a pathway, you have a
  6   cumulative effect.  Where there is no linkage, no
  7   physical, no biological, no socioeconomic
  8   connection to the Wuskwatim projects, there is no
  9   effect.
 10               We have been told quite conclusively I
 11   submit that there are no hydraulic affects as a
 12   consequence of building the Wuskwatim dam above
 13   Early Morning Rapids.  Accordingly, there is no
 14   point studying fish or erosion on South Indian
 15   Lake vis-a-vis or with respect to the Wuskwatim
 16   projects.
 17               Now, that is not because the fish in
 18   South Indian Lake, or the erosion, or the clearing
 19   of debris on that lake, or how it has affected the
 20   people who live at South Indian are not important.
 21   It is because there is no linkage to anything
 22   Wuskwatim will affect.
 23               If we had been asked to write a
 24   history, if we were thinking chronologically, yes,
 25   you cannot understand Wuskwatim if you are writing
07617
  1   a history or thinking chronologically.  If you
  2   want to understand what people's perception of
  3   Wuskwatim is and will be, you cannot do that
  4   without a study of the Churchill River Diversion,
  5   what was there before, what happened and why it
  6   happened, but we were not asked to write a history
  7   of the Churchill River Diversion.
  8               No one who has read the Environmental
  9   Impact assessment, no one who has been here as I
 10   have for ten weeks and listened to all of the
 11   testimony can possibly conclude that the Churchill
 12   River Diversion and its effects were ignored by
 13   the environmental consultants who testified and
 14   who wrote the EIS.
 15               Similarly, if you look to the
 16   future -- which Mr. Williams tells us is fraught
 17   with uncertainty -- you ask what projects are
 18   reasonably likely to occur, what is it today we
 19   know about them, and you look for linkages between
 20   what you understand those projects like Gull and
 21   Conawapa, and forestry activities of Tolko are and
 22   whether there will be an overlap, a linkage, a
 23   pathway to what you understand the effects of
 24   Wuskwatim will be.
 25               This was a project specific EIS, with
07618
  1   respect to Ms. Pollitt-Smith, whose argument I
  2   have read, she misses the point when she complains
  3   about the absence in our material of a study of
  4   regional cumulative effects.  I suggest that is
  5   not what the guidelines asked us to do, it is not
  6   what we did do.
  7               I cannot help but note that the only
  8   professional evidence that you heard over ten
  9   weeks on the subject of cumulative effects
 10   analysis came from the witnesses that we put
 11   forward.
 12               I find it interesting that the most
 13   thought-provoking discussion from a participant on
 14   the subject of cumulative effects analysis came in
 15   the presentation that I read last night from
 16   Ms. Pollitt-Smith, and I find that almost ironic
 17   because of course her client, the Consumers
 18   Association of Canada, called no evidence on the
 19   subject of the environmental assessment.  So my
 20   compliments to Ms. Pollitt-Smith for writing
 21   something that I found well-written and
 22   interesting.  Having said so, do not misunderstand
 23   me, please, I do not endorse everything that she
 24   wrote.
 25               With respect to her, I must say that
07619
  1   it is not correct for her or anyone to suggest,
  2               "We have only given vague and general
  3               references to what actual thresholds
  4               are."
  5   We have provided a precise threshold for mercury,
  6   and you heard at length from Mr. Davies on that
  7   subject.  Mr. Rempel talked with precision on the
  8   subject of sediment on Wuskwatim Lake.  We talked
  9   about peat islands.  And you of course heard much
 10   about the caribou, particularly how traditional
 11   knowledge has infused our understanding of the
 12   caribou who live in the vicinity of the generation
 13   station at Wuskwatim Lake.
 14               It is not correct to say -- and again
 15   with respect to Ms. Pollitt-Smith -- that the EIS
 16   has not withstood "the rigor of debate."  I
 17   watched for days as Mr. Abra, whom I knew was
 18   armed with the professional assistance of those
 19   individuals who have sat quietly behind him for
 20   ten weeks, as Mr. Abra tested each and every area
 21   of the Environmental Impact Statement.  When I
 22   look beyond you to the actual decision-maker, I
 23   suggest, with respect again, that it is not
 24   correct to say that the Environmental Impact
 25   Statement has not and will not be subject to third
07620
  1   party professional review with respect to its
  2   methodology and content.  There is, of course, a
  3   project administration team staffed with technical
  4   experts, one of whose tasks is indeed to review
  5   the Environmental Impact Statement and to apply
  6   their training and their knowledge as to the
  7   methodology employed therein and its content.
  8               Your assignment, of course, is to
  9   report to the Minister of Conservation the views
 10   of the public and the participants who have spoken
 11   here.  You can report to the Minister that not one
 12   member of the public and not one participant here
 13   complained about the routing of the transmission
 14   line.
 15               I have, of course, not forgotten that
 16   there has been a challenge to the routing of the
 17   transmission line.  At times as I sat and watched
 18   and listened, I can reveal that I said silently to
 19   myself, hurrah for Mr. Mayer, he is taking on the
 20   job of challenging the routing of the transmission
 21   line, which before the hearing started, I had
 22   anticipated would be something that more than one
 23   member of the public and more than one participant
 24   would have brought forward.  Hurrah to Mr. Mayer
 25   for making Mr. Hicks work, because I like to watch
07621
  1   Mr. Hicks work.  He does it so well.
  2               Then there were other times, as I
  3   listened to the debate on this subject and stared
  4   at the wall behind my head, and I asked myself
  5   silently whether Mr. Mayer can be here as both a
  6   Commissioner and a member of the public, and if he
  7   is also the latter, perhaps we could have him
  8   sworn in so that Mr. Williams can ask him under
  9   oath what learned articles he has published in
 10   peer review journals.
 11               And I leave you on this subject with
 12   what we have said regarding what we ourselves
 13   called the "Mayer alternative," that there is a
 14   cost to doing that, and I know you understand
 15   that, that there were extensive consultations that
 16   extended for almost two years regarding the route
 17   that we have put forward, and that to proceed with
 18   the Mayer alternative does require the removal of
 19   more habitat, and it does involve wider corridors.
 20               Why approve the Wuskwatim projects?  I
 21   suggest to you because they have been thoroughly
 22   reviewed by an outstanding team of professional
 23   consultants.  They have been tested by one of the
 24   Province's most able lawyers, assisted obviously
 25   by some very able consultants retained to assist
07622
  1   you.  They are infused with knowledge beyond the
  2   learning of the consultants who wrote much of the
  3   EIS.  And of course, I have in mind the
  4   traditional knowledge that has assisted all of us
  5   in understanding this time, probably for the first
  6   time, the concerns about building a hydro
  7   generation facility in the boreal forest.
  8               I will repeat an acknowledgment that
  9   Mr. Davies made at one point, and that is we do
 10   appreciate in hindsight that we could have done a
 11   better job of making it clear in the written
 12   material just how much traditional knowledge has
 13   assisted us in our planning.  I will also make the
 14   concession made by Mr. Osler several times in
 15   that, indeed, there are different ways you can
 16   write an environmental impact statement, and we do
 17   appreciate that the way in which this one was
 18   written, its length.  The way in which we chose to
 19   deal with cumulative effects assessment is not the
 20   only way it can be done, arguably not even the
 21   best way it can be done.  But we think that we
 22   covered the territory.  We think that you can
 23   recommend Wuskwatim because the conclusions we
 24   reached are no significant effects.  Effects there
 25   will be, but as we have said over and over again,
07623
  1   they are effects which we believe can be managed.
  2               Ms. Pollitt-Smith shows much
  3   enthusiasm for independent monitoring.  She
  4   describes on page 9 of her material -- I am sorry,
  5   page 29 -- an arm's length agency for proponents
  6   which can do at least five things; provide an
  7   integrated approach to achieving recommendations
  8   made by a regulatory panel; serve as a public
  9   watch dog for the regulatory process and the
 10   implementation of recommendations; compile and
 11   analyse relevant environment quality data; provide
 12   an accessible and public repository for
 13   environmental data; and provide programs for the
 14   effective dissemination of information to
 15   Aboriginal peoples and the general public about
 16   the project.
 17               Well, I have to say that I have very
 18   good news for Ms. Pollitt-Smith.  We already have
 19   in place such an independent agency, and it
 20   occurred to me as I listened to her, and as I read
 21   her material, that sometimes in life we can all
 22   sit in a room and not be aware of an elephant that
 23   is in the room, because the elephant, for whatever
 24   reason, is invisible to us.  We have had here for
 25   ten weeks the key employees of the agency I have
07624
  1   in mind, and while I don't wish to suggest to you
  2   that they look like elephants, Mr. Strachan,
  3   Mr. Hreno, and Mr. Pierce, all form a part of
  4   doing exactly what it is Ms. Pollitt-Smith thinks
  5   we need.  Of course, for those who don't recognize
  6   the names, they are civil servants employed by our
  7   Provincial Government and I suggest to do the very
  8   things that Ms. Pollitt-Smith thinks ought to be
  9   done.
 10               On the subject of independent
 11   monitoring of what will happen in the Wuskwatim
 12   area if these projects go forward, I am reminded
 13   as well of what Councillor Darcy Linklater
 14   described to us.  The Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation
 15   have their own management board.  I ask you how
 16   practical and how reasonable it is to recommend
 17   imposition of yet another review process on a
 18   people who say clearly, at least to me, we wish to
 19   manage our own resources and we know best how to
 20   do that.
 21               Finally, I cannot fail to note on the
 22   subject of independent monitoring that no evidence
 23   that is credible has been led here for ten weeks
 24   that would suggest that the existing monitoring
 25   that you have heard so much about has failed in
07625
  1   any way.  Do not fix what is not broken.
  2               Why ought you to recommend the
  3   Wuskwatim projects?  Because the proponents, as
  4   they have said, as we have said repeatedly, are
  5   committed to extensive and responsible monitoring.
  6   And as Mr. Davies was careful to explain,
  7   monitoring by the proponents practically means
  8   retaining consultants like Mr. Davies, like Mr.
  9   Hicks, like Mr. Rempel, and others trained in
 10   their field with broad experience.  It is they who
 11   actually do the monitoring.  It is they who
 12   prepare the reports that Mr. Davies told you are
 13   available publicly, monitoring which certainly
 14   incorporates concerns of local communities,
 15   monitoring which includes the assistance of people
 16   who live in local communities.
 17               You heard much about consultation.
 18   You heard one participant in these proceedings
 19   complain that the consultation with it was so
 20   inadequate that you have no alternative but to
 21   report to the Minister of Conservation that these
 22   projects cannot be recommended.  Those who are
 23   here will have already divined that I am making
 24   reference to the Manitoba Metis Federation.
 25               I will concede that when Ms. Elizabeth
07626
  1   Hicks and Ms. Janet McKinley went north with their
  2   teams to consult with people, they did not also go
  3   armed with swat teams of lawyers.  They did not
  4   engage in consultations with affected peoples on
  5   the subject of what the rights of those peoples
  6   were, how to define those rights, what the extent
  7   of those rights were.
  8               The focus of those consultations,
  9   including those with Metis people who live in the
 10   north, was very practical.  It focused on
 11   questions asked of people as follows:  What is it
 12   that you do?  This is what we intend to do if we
 13   build the Wuskwatim projects.  How will you be
 14   affected in what you do and how you do it if we
 15   proceed to build these projects?
 16               The guidelines required the proponents
 17   to consult with affected peoples and communities,
 18   with Aboriginal peoples and Aboriginal
 19   communities, and to take into account their
 20   cultures and their concerns.  I suggest to you
 21   that we did that.  We listened to those people and
 22   we have reported on that to you, as the guidelines
 23   and terms of reference required us to do.
 24               Yes, you can take comfort from the
 25   fact that people's rights, Aboriginal Treaty
07627
  1   rights are not going to be ignored in this
  2   process.  And obviously we all heard about the
  3   section 35 process, and we all understand that
  4   that process will focus on people's rights.
  5               Mr. Leslie Dysart, on behalf of the
  6   Community Association of South Indian Lake,
  7   suggests to you that my client, Manitoba Hydro,
  8   mislead you in this proceeding, that my client has
  9   violated an environmental license, and he hints of
 10   legal repercussions.
 11               With the greatest of respect to Mr.
 12   Dysart, he has wandered into an aspect of my
 13   domain.  It is fundamental to the society in which
 14   we all live, and that he who alleges must prove,
 15   and if what you are alleging is the violation of a
 16   law, you must prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
 17               Mr. Dysart has not done that.  Indeed,
 18   I cannot help but note that the only cogent
 19   evidence on the subject of the interim license for
 20   the Churchill River Diversion and the water levels
 21   of South Indian Lake came from witnesses that I
 22   put forward, as a response, I may note to
 23   allegations that were not within the scope of the
 24   terms of reference or the Environmental Impact
 25   Statement.
07628
  1               No expert evidence was offered to you
  2   from the Community Association of South Indian
  3   Lake on a subject that clearly requires expert
  4   evidence.  When one begins to talk about good
  5   engineering practice, the interpretation of laws
  6   and licenses, you need expert help, you need
  7   engineers, you need lawyers.
  8               I must say that what Mr. Dysart has
  9   certainly satisfied me about is that there is much
 10   muddle and much confusion within the Community
 11   Association of South Indian Lake on the following
 12   subjects; the difference between a benchmark and a
 13   water gauge; the differences between the interim
 14   license for the Churchill River Diversion and the
 15   Churchill Weir; the differences between metric
 16   measurements and Imperial measurements; the
 17   conversion rates used to convert one to the other;
 18   the numbers on a website maintained by the Federal
 19   Government that posts information about water
 20   levels at South Indian Lake; and the differences
 21   between the requirements of law and the
 22   requirements of good engineering practice.
 23               So do you, the Clean Environment
 24   Commission, have to decide whether my client is,
 25   in fact, as Mr. Dysart has alleged, in breach of a
07629
  1   license?  Well, I have good news for you, no, you
  2   do not have to decide that.  There is nothing in
  3   your terms of reference which require you or
  4   compel you to wade into that thorny and obviously
  5   controversial subject.
  6               I listened, as we all did, I think by
  7   my count at least three times, to Ms. Kempton on
  8   behalf of Pimicikamak say that her client is the
  9   most affected by the proposed Wuskwatim projects.
 10   As I listened to that over and over and over
 11   again, I asked myself over and over and over
 12   again, where is the evidence?  Well, you didn't
 13   get any evidence.  Why can you possibly recommend
 14   the Wuskwatim projects in the face of the
 15   assertions of the Community Association of South
 16   Indian Lake and Pimicikamak?  Well, I suggest to
 17   you the answer is because you heard no persuasive
 18   evidence from either of them that their assertions
 19   have any merit.
 20               I turn to one recommendation that you
 21   have already told us you're going to make.  I want
 22   to assure you in doing so that it is not within me
 23   to have the impertinence to try and persuade you
 24   to try and change your minds on a subject that you
 25   have already publicly announced that you are going
07630
  1   to make the recommendation.  But it is my hope
  2   that perhaps I can influence how you write it.
  3               I think you cannot help but record in
  4   the recommendations you provide to the Minister
  5   something -- much about the testimony that you
  6   heard from such a wide variety of people regarding
  7   their perception and their views, and their
  8   knowledge of the adverse effects on their lives of
  9   hydro development in Northern Manitoba.  And I and
 10   we understand the all too human appeal of the
 11   recommendation made to you by MKO, that you
 12   recommend to the Province of Manitoba and the
 13   Government of Canada that somehow and in some way
 14   a process be designed to bring resolution to the
 15   outstanding, unresolved issues which you heard so
 16   much about.
 17               Now, obviously, the Government of
 18   Canada was not here.  Those employed by the
 19   Province of Manitoba who are charged with
 20   responsibilities under the Northern Flood
 21   Agreement, I understand were not here.
 22               Most important of all, this has not
 23   been a review of what has and what has not worked
 24   over the last 30 years arising out of the Northern
 25   Flood Agreement.  I say to you with the greatest
07631
  1   of respect that recommendations not founded on a
  2   thorough review of the issues, with input from all
  3   interested parties, can carry much weight.  I am
  4   concerned, having watched the reaction of Mr.
  5   Sinclair to your advice to him that you are
  6   unanimous on at least one recommendation, that you
  7   take care not to raise expectations among those
  8   who still look for resolution of their concerns
  9   arising out of hydroelectric development in
 10   Northern Manitoba, that we not be left with
 11   recommendations that there is little likelihood
 12   that they can followed, and that some in the
 13   future will begin to confuse a recommendation that
 14   you make with a promise broken.
 15               On the subject of process, Ms. Gaile
 16   Whelan Enns asks you on Monday, when will fairness
 17   be restored to your process?  I answer her
 18   question that fairness will be restored when those
 19   who take part in the process respect the process
 20   and the procedures that are expected to be
 21   followed in the process.
 22               Thinking back to my early years
 23   studying history, I commend to you the example of
 24   one of my history professors.  We were given an
 25   assignment of particular importance for the
07632
  1   course.  We had to report back within a stipulated
  2   time as to what topic we had chosen.  We had to
  3   report back shortly thereafter to confirm that we
  4   had begun to prepare a draft of our paper.  I
  5   suggest to you that when you hand out money to
  6   participants on representations that they are
  7   going to retain experts and that they are going to
  8   assist in a meaningful exchange of ideas and
  9   debate at a public hearing, that if they made
 10   those representations and you have made the
 11   decision to provide funding, that you have them
 12   back in timely fashion before the hearing starts
 13   and ask them simple questions, such as, have you
 14   retained the experts and what are their names?
 15   And have the experts begun drafting their report?
 16   And have the experts told you when those reports
 17   will be ready so that they can be distributed and
 18   read within reasonable time by all parties?
 19               If you get answers to those simple
 20   questions such as no experts yet retained, no idea
 21   when reports will be ready, you can ask further
 22   questions such as, why have you taken money on
 23   representation that you will do certain things and
 24   those things don't seem to be getting done?
 25               Mr. Lecuyer invited all present on one
07633
  1   of the early sessions of this hearing to come
  2   forward as you looked forward to a healthy
  3   exchange of ideas.  Ms. Pollitt-Smith in her
  4   written material is correct, that this hearing has
  5   suffered from a lack of a full exchange of ideas.
  6   It would have been better if Pimicikamak, as they
  7   promised, had brought forward expert witnesses to
  8   try and assist you, and frankly us, in
  9   understanding whether or not there is merit to the
 10   assertion that they will be somehow more affected
 11   by anyone else by Wuskwatim.
 12               It would have been of assistance to us
 13   and to you if the Manitoba Metis Federation, in
 14   timely fashion, had come forward with some
 15   material to show us that something has been
 16   overlooked in how our projects may affect the
 17   Metis people.
 18               I cannot help but note as a lawyer
 19   that from time to time I thought that the
 20   adversarial process of asking questions that we
 21   lawyers are so familiar with is not necessarily
 22   best suited for your process here.  It is not a
 23   good way to encourage people to come forward or to
 24   engage in an exchange of ideas.
 25               When I read in one of the materials
07634
  1   filed by one of the participants that in your
  2   process public participation is supposed to be
  3   limited to the testing of what is put forward by
  4   the proponents, I thought to myself, that is part
  5   of the problem.  Because while the public should
  6   be invited and are welcome to test what proponents
  7   put forward, surely, you look to the public and
  8   participants for constructive ideas as well, and
  9   not simply the testing of what the proponents have
 10   said.
 11               Mr. Troniak says yesterday that he may
 12   stand to be corrected -- well, I am happy to
 13   correct him.  There is absolutely no contradiction
 14   in what Mr. Adams said before a Senate Committee
 15   in St. Paul, Minnesota and what Mr. Adams told
 16   you.
 17               Ms. Whelan Enns on Monday asks what is
 18   Manitoba Hydro's policy for protected area
 19   initiatives?  I am also happy to refer her to the
 20   answer that we gave to one of CNF's
 21   interrogatories, CNF/MH/NCN 1 EIS PA 28 A.
 22               And I cannot help but note my
 23   astonishment on Monday when Mrs. Whelan Enns
 24   disavows any responsibility for the interrogatory
 25   process that we endured, and complains that it
07635
  1   hindered her work and absorbed her scarce funds.
  2   And I ask myself, why on earth then did she bother
  3   posing 700 questions, and at least with respect to
  4   one of the answers we gave on protected area
  5   initiatives, why has she not six months later
  6   bothered to read the answer that we gave?
  7               Five days a week, it has been six and
  8   seven days a week in the last three and a half
  9   months, I drive to work for a company along with
 10   4000 to 5000 other Manitobans.  I can't say that I
 11   have met them all, and neither have you.  You have
 12   seen the faces and you heard the voices of some of
 13   the senior staff at Manitoba Hydro, Mr. Ken Adams,
 14   Mr. Ed Wojczynski, Mr. Dave Cormie, Ms. Lynn Wray,
 15   Mr. Ron Mazur and Mr. Lloyd Kuczek.  We at
 16   Manitoba Hydro are very conscious that the
 17   operations of Manitoba Hydro touch the lives of
 18   virtually every Manitoban.  We, the present
 19   generation of employees at Manitoba Hydro, do not
 20   shy away from the responsibility we have and carry
 21   for hydroelectric development in the past.  But we
 22   respect the processes that have been put in place
 23   by both the Provincial and Federal Governments to
 24   resolve those concerns.
 25               Like all Manitobans, like every one of
07636
  1   you, we care deeply about the environment.  We
  2   listen at Manitoba Hydro with care and with
  3   respect to those who say, your company and your
  4   business have hurt me.  But I reject outright
  5   claims that you have heard that my witnesses told
  6   lies, that my witnesses mislead you.  I reject
  7   outright suggestions that my client has broken any
  8   law or license governing its operations.
  9               But don't take my word for it.  You
 10   don't have to trust me and I do not ask you to.
 11   Judge us by what you saw, what you heard, and what
 12   you read.  For example, notwithstanding that their
 13   assertions were out of scope, we did further
 14   studies and tests for Pimicikamak, and you heard
 15   on the record that there were meetings with
 16   Pimicikamak and the experts who they consult with
 17   regarding their concerns, but whom they never
 18   produced here.
 19               When the Community Association of
 20   South Indian Lake was unable to put their
 21   questions to Mr. Cormie when the NFAAT panel was
 22   sitting, I arranged for Mr. Cormie to be present
 23   when the EIS panel sat.  When Mr. Cormie came and
 24   was unable because of time constraints to put in
 25   an undertaking of real importance to the Community
07637
  1   Association of South Indian Lake, we arranged for
  2   him to meet privately with them and to provide
  3   them with his undertaking in advance.
  4               When Ms. Whelan Enns complained over
  5   and over again that documents weren't readily
  6   accessible to the public, we put them on our
  7   website at Manitoba Hydro so the whole world would
  8   have access to them -- some culture of secrecy.
  9               And I called no one a liar, I never
 10   alleged that anyone mislead you, although I must
 11   say I was sorely tempted on occasion.  I never
 12   suggested to you that anyone has broken the law.
 13               Why recommend the Wuskwatim projects?
 14   Because they are excellent projects.  There is a
 15   need in Northern Manitoba for training and
 16   employment.  We linked the word "need" with money
 17   and profit.  You have heard a lot of testimony
 18   about hydroelectric development in this Province
 19   in years past has divided peoples and cultures.
 20   The Wuskwatim projects bring with them a promise
 21   to bring the company I work for and First Nations,
 22   particularly the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation,
 23   together.  There is, I suggest to you, a need for
 24   that.
 25               As I draw to a close, I wish to echo
07638
  1   Ms. Matthews Lemieux's thank you to all of the
  2   consultants whose work over a number of years went
  3   into preparing the materials you have read and
  4   into preparing for this hearing.
  5               I must say that you had the
  6   opportunity to see the faces and hear the voices
  7   of the senior members of the consulting firms, and
  8   you saw some of the faces of the less senior
  9   people in the back row.  But you perhaps passed in
 10   the hallway some days a number of other
 11   consultants who provided information that has made
 12   this, yes, an outstanding and state of the art
 13   Environmental Impact Statement.  I will not list
 14   their names, I am sure you have observed the names
 15   as you went through the EIS.  The companies they
 16   work for and their names are there.
 17               Years ago one of the things that I was
 18   taught by a very able history professor is that
 19   listening is an acquired skill.  It is hard to do.
 20   You have to be patient.  And listening constitutes
 21   much more than just hearing my voice, you have to
 22   try and understand what you are listening to.
 23               I wish to echo the comments of all
 24   those who have spoken in the last three days, who
 25   have taken the time to thank the five of you, for
07639
  1   what has been an extraordinary endurance test some
  2   days I am sure, but an extraordinary performance
  3   of listening.  We wish you luck on what you are
  4   going to write.  We hope that the understanding
  5   continues.
  6               Mr. Lecuyer on an earlier occasion in
  7   this hearing indicated that he was looking and
  8   that you are looking for wisdom when it comes to
  9   making what you hope will be wise recommendations
 10   to the Minister of Conservation.  So, I am going
 11   to conclude by reminding you of two wise comments
 12   about the world in which we live, and we the
 13   people who occupy it.  You may have heard one of
 14   these before.  I certainly know you have heard the
 15   other because it was said here.
 16               A long time ago in the 1860s a visitor
 17   came to the home of a leader whose people were
 18   very much divided by the issues of their day.  In
 19   discussing those issues, the leader in question,
 20   and I paraphrase, said that you can please all of
 21   the people some of the time, and you can please
 22   some of the people all of the time, but you cannot
 23   please all of the people all of the time.  And I
 24   say to you that this hearing and what you have to
 25   write reflects the latter.  You will not be able
07640
  1   to please, when you make your recommendations, all
  2   of the people whom you have heard through this
  3   process.
  4               For those who are not familiar with
  5   whom I am quoting, that of course was Abraham
  6   Lincoln.
  7               The other wise words that I remind you
  8   of, you heard here one day.  Those are, that if
  9   you take care of the land, the land will take care
 10   of you.  If you take what you need from the land,
 11   the land will give you what you need.  If you
 12   search in the transcript, as I did, you will note
 13   that it was Councillor Elvis Thomas who spoke
 14   those words, but he identified his colleague
 15   Councillor Darcy Linklater as the actual author of
 16   those words.
 17               In thinking what I would say to you
 18   all today, I thought that there was no better way
 19   for a Hydro lawyer to conclude his remarks than to
 20   remind you of the wisdom of a Cree councillor.
 21   Thank you.
 22               THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.  I know that
 23   this does not complete your presentation, but
 24   there are some urgent needs being felt.
 25   Therefore, I hope that we can take ten minutes to
07641
  1   address them.
  2               
  3               (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 2:53 P.M.
  4                AND RECONVENED AT 3:08 P.M.)
  5   
  6               THE CHAIRMAN:  Ladies and gentlemen, I
  7   would remind you that ten minutes is well past and
  8   if you could come back into the room for the
  9   continuation of the closing statements by NCN
 10   Manitoba Hydro.
 11               Ladies and gentlemen, apparently some
 12   people have not heard that we are ready and
 13   waiting to continue with the proceedings and we
 14   would like to see everyone come back to complete
 15   the presentation.
 16               I guess now we are all back and ready
 17   to continue.
 18               MR. THOMAS:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman
 19   and Commissioners.
 20               My colleagues are going to say a few
 21   words as well.  I am going to try and keep mine
 22   short.  The first one will be my colleague to my
 23   left, Councillor Agnes Spence, who will be
 24   followed by Councillor David Spence, followed by
 25   Councillor Jimmy Hunter Spence and followed Darcy
07642
  1   Linklater and followed by myself and then the
  2   Chief will make the closing comments.
  3               MS. AGNES SPENCE:  Good afternoon.  My
  4   name is Agnes Melinda Spence.  I come from a big
  5   family, 12 brothers and sisters; four brothers,
  6   six sisters.  I had the luxury of being raised by
  7   my grandparents.
  8               Many of us that grew up along the
  9   shores of South Indian Lake remember the beauty of
 10   the lake, how rich it was in resources, beautiful
 11   gardens and recreation grounds.  People lived in
 12   groups, miles apart along the lake.
 13               I was raised in a traditional way of
 14   life.  By the time I was 12 years old, I had
 15   learned many traditional skills.  I helped my
 16   grandmothers in pursuit of such as food and
 17   medicine, harvesting, setting the net, setting
 18   snares for small game, helping with animal hides
 19   and sewing moccasins and even making nets.
 20               As a child and knowing I would have to
 21   be moving back to Nelson House, I was anxious
 22   because -- from my visits.  I remember there were
 23   many bigger gardens and some people even had farm
 24   animals.
 25               To my disappointment, my move to
07643
  1   Nelson House was to a crowded community into a
  2   bigger house I wasn't used to.  Only a small yard
  3   and an outhouse.  The lake was about a mile away
  4   and the houses were close together in a town
  5   setting.
  6               I was lonely for the wild.  I remember
  7   feeling so trapped, but I soon adapted and enjoyed
  8   going to school and later went on to high school
  9   in Cranberry, Portage and Thompson.
 10               After high school, I married my
 11   husband and I worked on the CRD shoreline clearing
 12   project, living out on the land and making lots of
 13   money, even sometimes clearing $3000 every two
 14   weeks.
 15               Once the projects were completed, my
 16   husband and I moved to Brandon to go to university
 17   and college.  This was another shock of my life.
 18   Big city, small apartment, everything cost money,
 19   which we had no sense to save.  We could not just
 20   go out and get a fish from the lake if we wanted,
 21   but we soon adapted to this new way of life.
 22               Four years later, we returned home,
 23   with my husband with his Bachelor of Education
 24   degree and me with one-year of Business
 25   Administration and a typing certificate.
07644
  1               My spirit was unexplainably torn when
  2   I returned home in the early '80s to see how much
  3   of the land was destroyed by the Churchill River
  4   Diversion.  Once again, this shock was followed by
  5   acceptance.
  6               I have been living in Nisichawayasihk
  7   most of my life.  I am fortunate to be living off
  8   the land and having a cabin on the lake.  As soon
  9   as work is out, my husband and I are out in the
 10   land, whether it is to go look at the birds and
 11   the animals or go hunting, fishing and gathering.
 12               In my experience, I have adapted to
 13   the ways of life in which I have encountered.  The
 14   lakes are still beautiful, some of the beaches are
 15   still there under a lot of debris.  The plants and
 16   animals are still plentiful.  When we want to swim
 17   at the beach, we still clear some of the debris
 18   and over time, more and more of the beaches are
 19   starting to show.
 20               When we travel on the waterways, if
 21   there is floating debris, we clear it away to make
 22   sure it is safe for the next people that come
 23   around.
 24               With due care and respect to the lands
 25   and waters, it is still beautiful and rich in its
07645
  1   resources.
  2               In 27 years of marriage, my husband
  3   and I have harvested 27 moose, many fish, ducks
  4   and small game, too many to count, which we have
  5   shared with our elders.  Sometimes maybe getting
  6   only one or two meals for our family.
  7               I often travel back to South Indian
  8   Lake to my family there to collect "warehouse
  9   hunting", we call it, the foods, such as fish and
 10   meat which are still more plentiful in South
 11   Indian Lake.
 12               These I also share with my elders and
 13   other members of Nisichawayasihk.
 14               Presently, I am council member of
 15   Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation.  My portfolio in
 16   council is Family and Community Wellness, which
 17   includes Child and Family Services, Head Start
 18   Daycare and Community Health Services, Medicine
 19   Lodge Membership for Women and Elders.
 20               I am presently working on several
 21   projects, including the Urban Reserve Project,
 22   Reserve Status Quo PCN, revamping NCN laws and
 23   bylaws and NCN Midwife's Training Certificate and
 24   I am a Future Development team member.
 25               As you have heard, we at
07646
  1   Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation have been grossly
  2   affected by flooding of our land and I have been
  3   personally affected.
  4               When I first heard about the Wuskwatim
  5   project, I was again in shock.  How can we talk or
  6   even think of Hydro building another dam?  How can
  7   we -- let alone be partners.  This is insane.  I
  8   could have gone insane.
  9               After much discussion and much prayer
 10   and a personal healing journey, I am once at a
 11   state of acceptance.  I must forgive.  Believing
 12   in God and having forgiveness and having hope for
 13   the future is the only way to go.  I have to
 14   accept.
 15               My brothers could not go to this new
 16   way of life and have since gone in early adulthood
 17   from us through suicide.  My brother, a fisherman,
 18   was lost in the Churchill River Leaf Rapids area,
 19   presumed drowned almost three years ago.  We have
 20   yet to find his remains.  Probably we never will.
 21               I do not blame Hydro for this.  It is
 22   a combination of reasons.  Residential schools,
 23   abuse of alcohol and drugs, unemployment,
 24   homelessness, apathy and hopelessness, maybe even
 25   fate.
07647
  1               I know there are some people that are
  2   mad and unhappy about the upcoming Wuskwatim
  3   project and are enraged, blaming Chief and
  4   Council, Hydro and Governments for all the misery.
  5   I understand where they are coming from.  I went
  6   through the same phase in my life.
  7               I always think back to my grandfathers
  8   and grandmothers and ask the Creator for guidance.
  9   I have been taught to be thankful and respect
 10   whatever comes my way.  I know my grandfather
 11   would want me to cope and manage and this is what
 12   I live.
 13               It is through our Creator, God, that I
 14   could move on past this stage of life.  Through
 15   forgiveness, balance can be restored.
 16               The mistakes and injustices of the
 17   past should not be continued or repeated.  We have
 18   to forgive and move on.  We cannot let anger blind
 19   our plans for future generations.
 20               We are presently pursuing a partner
 21   with Manitoba Hydro to build a dam, the Wuskwatim
 22   Partnership.  In the planning process, we, the
 23   Cree of Nisichawayasihk, have been fully involved
 24   in the process.  This way we are assured that the
 25   mistakes and injustices of the past will not be
07648
  1   repeated.  We need to plan for the future for a
  2   better life for our people and also for the
  3   survival of all.
  4               The responsibility of our lands and
  5   waters should come from all.  There should be no
  6   more them, but us, but we.  We, all colours of
  7   people, living and using the resources of this
  8   land, we should take the responsibility of our
  9   lands and waters, the lands and waters of this
 10   continent.  We must all be responsible in the use
 11   and protection of our lands, our waters and our
 12   animals.
 13               To this CEC panel, I thank you.  I
 14   have been here most of these hearings and I see
 15   you don't have an easy task.  I trust that you
 16   will make a wise decision, no matter what the
 17   decision is.
 18               May the creator God keep and guide
 19   you.  Ekosi.
 20               MR. DAVID SPENCE:  (CREE SPOKEN)
 21               Mr. Chairman, Commissioners,
 22   distinguished guests and participants and to all
 23   the people gathered here in Winnipeg today, my
 24   name is David Spence, I am a councillor and
 25   vice-chief for Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation.  Our
07649
  1   people have been responsible guardians for our
  2   traditional lands for over 7500 years.  People who
  3   remain committed to protecting these lands as we
  4   enter this new millennium.
  5               Today, I am here to share my thoughts
  6   and some of the thoughts of our elders, youth and
  7   people on the proposed the Wuskwatim generation
  8   and transmission projects presently being
  9   considered on a very small part of our traditional
 10   lands in northern Manitoba.
 11               Over the past few months, much has
 12   been said and written about the proposed Wuskwatim
 13   projects.  Many people have appeared before you,
 14   presenting formal written reports, submissions and
 15   testimony.  Still, many others have their own
 16   thoughts and voices on the subject, in their own
 17   way and in different forums, people within and
 18   outside our community, people within and outside
 19   our province, and people within and outside our
 20   country.
 21               Only once before has a proposed
 22   hydroelectric project in Manitoba been subjected
 23   to such rigorous and public scrutiny and debate
 24   and that was the Churchill River Diversion project
 25   of the late 1970s.  But, never before have our own
07650
  1   people and our own leaders, the Nisichawayasihk
  2   Cree Nation, been called upon to answer and
  3   account for all the injustices of the past, all
  4   the injustices of the present and all the possible
  5   injustices of the future which may affect our
  6   people as well as others.
  7               As proponents for the proposed
  8   Wuskwatim projects and the potential partners and
  9   part owners with Manitoba Hydro, our people and
 10   our leaders, the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, have
 11   been asked to answer an account for many other
 12   things as well.  Some of these questions have been
 13   fair and legitimate, some of these questions have
 14   been unfair, insulting and hurtful.  Some of these
 15   questions have been just plain odd, like whether
 16   our people would be better off re-establishing a
 17   traditional economy based on hunting, trapping and
 18   gathering, or whether our people can still be
 19   considered real Indians, while at the same time
 20   pursuing a modern-day economic development
 21   initiatives, such as this project or other
 22   projects in which we are presently engaged or
 23   considering.
 24               Another frequent question that we have
 25   been asked to answer and account for, a question
07651
  1   that has been around for about 20 years is:  How
  2   can a real Indian consent to the destruction of
  3   their own lands, waters and territories?
  4               When our First Nation began
  5   negotiating an agreement and finally implementing
  6   the Northern Flood Agreement in the early 1990s,
  7   we were asked this question as were the other four
  8   NFA First Nations, who were engaged in similar
  9   negotiations at the same time:  How can a real
 10   Indian consent to the destruction of their lands,
 11   waters and territories?
 12               The thinking behind this question at
 13   the time was simple and the willingness for our
 14   First Nation to reach final agreements with
 15   Manitoba Hydro, the Province and the Federal
 16   Government.  Agreements to partly compensate our
 17   communities for our many losses due to the
 18   Churchill River Diversion Project and other
 19   associated projects, demonstrated our
 20   after-the-fact consent of these projects and
 21   demonstrated our after-the-fact support of the
 22   negative environmental impacts associated with
 23   these projects.  How could a real Indian consent
 24   to the destruction of their lands, waters and
 25   territories, where other NFA First Nations were
07652
  1   asked at the time.
  2               But, the answer to the question is
  3   also simple and still is:  There is no
  4   after-the-fact consent, there is no after-the-fact
  5   support, there were only First Nations trying to
  6   do what was best for the communities, for their
  7   children and those yet unborn.
  8               The best can be said about the sad
  9   chapter in our collective past that it is over,
 10   that it is time to begin a new chapter and that
 11   many of us have been -- for many of us have been
 12   trying to do that for the last 12 or 20 years.
 13               Let us not also forget that the
 14   Churchill River Diversion project and its
 15   associated projects were a product of a different
 16   era.  The product of a different way of thinking.
 17   The era is now over.  The way of thinking is no
 18   longer with us today.
 19               Let us not also forget about the
 20   terrible chapters of our pasts; the past of our
 21   First Nations in Canada.  If the very critics are
 22   so concerned about us, about our people, about our
 23   lands, waters and territories, why are they so
 24   completely forgetting about the terrible chapters
 25   of our past?  Is it lack of knowledge beside the
07653
  1   great knowledge in one particular area?  Is it the
  2   lack of caring, despite their great compassion in
  3   one particular area?  Or is it a lack of true
  4   commitment to our entire cause, despite this
  5   self-professed commitment to one of our causes in
  6   the particular area that can be -- that have been
  7   (inaudible) for their own personal reasons.
  8               There are residential schools, there
  9   were laws that confined our people to reserves and
 10   prevented us from independently engaging in
 11   commerce and laws that prevented us from boating
 12   or entering drinking establishments.  There were
 13   hundreds of other things wrong.  There were
 14   hundreds of other laws and policies that were
 15   wrong.  There were hundreds of other things that
 16   happened to our people and yet, our present
 17   critics do not feel they are not worth mentioning.
 18               Yet many of our critics today who
 19   express great knowledge, compassion and commitment
 20   to our people conveniently forget about the
 21   terrible chapters of our past.  They seem to only
 22   care about one particular chapter, one particular
 23   area for their own reasons, not ours.  But, again,
 24   these are terrible chapters, we are products of a
 25   different era.  Products of a different way of
07654
  1   thinking.  Again, the era is over.  Again, the way
  2   of thinking is no longer with us today.
  3               Again, it is now time to start a new
  4   chapter.  Again, it is now time to try and do what
  5   is best for our communities, for our children and
  6   our children's children.
  7               That is what our First Nations is
  8   presently trying to do with the proposed Wuskwatim
  9   project, begin again, but on a new footing as
 10   equals.  We can warn the past, we can honestly and
 11   truly recognize the past, but we cannot allow
 12   ourselves to become trapped by the past.  There is
 13   no future in the past, only the present and that
 14   is why we must move forward.  Continue moving
 15   forward, but on a new footing, as equals.
 16               Today, we are still being asked,
 17   because of our possible involvement with the
 18   proposed Wuskwatim projects:  How can a real
 19   Indian consent to the destruction of their lands,
 20   waters and territories?
 21               As it has been demonstrated by
 22   environmental impact statement for the proposed
 23   project, it has been strongly clarified by experts
 24   retained by our First Nations and Manitoba Hydro.
 25   Only 125 acres of our land will be flooded or
07655
  1   adversely affected.  Less than a half a square
  2   kilometer, approximately the size of one and a
  3   half dozen or so golf courses presently located in
  4   Winnipeg.
  5               While the environmental impacts,
  6   admittedly greater than a blade of grass, there is
  7   no way to compare the past Hydro projects in
  8   Manitoba or elsewhere.  Should our people choose
  9   to proceed with Wuskwatim, should Manitoba Hydro
 10   choose to proceed, should the Province or Federal
 11   Government choose to proceed, the environmental
 12   impacts will be minimal, but the positive social
 13   impacts of our people will be immeasurable.
 14               Our people and our lands, waters and
 15   territories are not a museum for the benefit of
 16   others who would rather admire our pristine state
 17   and let us live our own lives on our terms
 18   according to what we feel and know what is best
 19   for us.
 20               The days of a noble savage or a real
 21   Indian is no longer with us.  He was a product of
 22   a different era, but some of our critics which to
 23   cling to it for their own personal reasons.
 24               Our people, that is the
 25   Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, our people are not
07656
  1   amusing artifacts or entertaining museum pieces.
  2   We have hopes and dreams for the future, we have
  3   hopes and dreams for our children and we have
  4   hopes and dreams for enjoying the present standard
  5   of living that most Canadians take for granted.
  6               Wuskwatim is one possible way we
  7   continue towards our many goals.  Wuskwatim is one
  8   possible way to continue building a better future
  9   for our children and our children's children.
 10               In conclusion, I was asked by one of
 11   my colleagues before I started speaking not to
 12   mention principle, he said, because we can't eat
 13   principle.  But, I will conclude after sitting
 14   through these dam hearings -- just kidding -- that
 15   we have adopted new principles.  I hope,
 16   sincerely, that the Commissioners do.  The five
 17   Ws, Chief and Council, as you know, "we" listen,
 18   "we" hear, "we" respect, "we" respond and "we"
 19   care.  (CREE SPOKEN).  Thank you very much.
 20               MR. JIMMY HUNTER SPENCE:
 21   (CREE SPOKEN)
 22               Youth, elders, ladies and gentlemen,
 23   Chairman, Commissioners, my name is Jimmy Hunter
 24   Spence.  I am one of the councillors from Nelson
 25   House.  I am the one of the ones that were
07657
  1   selected to stay at home because as leaders, we
  2   recognize the need to deal with our social
  3   development, also to go hand and hand with our
  4   economic development.  I lived in both worlds, so
  5   I recognize a need for both; the western and
  6   traditional go hand in hand.  I retired from
  7   Manitoba Telephone recently and that's why I
  8   recognize economic double side of it also.
  9               I believe that social and spiritual
 10   development is very important to achieve solid
 11   economic development because of the direction
 12   given and expressed by our people from our elders,
 13   also from the past Chief and Council who have gone
 14   to the spiritual world, and I believe that they
 15   are the ones that paved the way for us, and we are
 16   here to -- we are the ones that carry on with the
 17   dreams and visions they had.
 18               There is a need to work on our life
 19   skill and spiritual development is very important
 20   for success for First Nations.  We also have to
 21   deal with our healing problems we have in our
 22   community, our social problems, and that's why we
 23   have healing ceremonies and at the same time, we
 24   have to recognize that both traditional and
 25   religious spirituality.
07658
  1               As leaders we have to be open minded
  2   in all situations.  We have to respect -- we have
  3   to respect everybody's position, whatever it may
  4   be.  As leaders we have to be open minded.  I was
  5   taught to respect others by -- I was brought up by
  6   my grandmother also.  I respect the land, I
  7   respect the people, and I respect the water.
  8               As leaders we have to continue to look
  9   for balance and harmony, and all social, economic
 10   circumstances and to create understanding and
 11   respect for all.
 12               I notice everybody's participation in
 13   this process and the portfolio order, Elvis
 14   Thomas, the Chief and Council did a lot of hard
 15   work and also the consultants, everybody that is
 16   here.  I think this will lead to a right decision
 17   about this project.
 18               We, as First Nations, we have to start
 19   taking inventory of all our resources, human and
 20   natural resources.  Start participating as
 21   co-owners and start participating, otherwise --
 22   even if not as co-owners, for employment and for
 23   training for our communities.  It is time we took
 24   our stand.
 25               We need employment.  We need training.
07659
  1   It hurts me as a leader for one of my people to
  2   come to me to ask me for employment and to say, I
  3   have nothing for you.  I want to -- I want my
  4   people to have a brighter future, to have work and
  5   to have training.  I think it is so important.
  6               We have a life skill program now that
  7   we work on for development where we want our
  8   people to work and we want them to stay on the job
  9   sites.  This is one of the -- of our goals.  It is
 10   employment and training.
 11               I thank you for listening, ladies and
 12   gentlemen, thank you.
 13               MR. DARCY LINKLATER:  Mr. Chairman,
 14   respected Commissioners, elders and all the
 15   participants, all my relatives: (CREE SPOKEN).
 16               My name is (CREE), translated to
 17   Spirit Walker, my Christian name is Darcy
 18   Linklater.
 19               I have just heard from my fellow
 20   councillors and we all have different
 21   perspectives, but we are all united in one thing,
 22   in that we are trying to strengthen our future.
 23   We are trying to change the status quo of our
 24   community and at the same time, to honour the
 25   wisdom of our ancestors gone before us.
07660
  1               Her motives run deep along a pathway
  2   carved by time.  A pathway that runs from far, far
  3   into the past and far to the future.
  4               Her motives for finding and travelling
  5   this path, the path we have chosen towards
  6   sovereignty, we don't want to remain in the path
  7   of colonialism.
  8               This path that we journey is not
  9   polluted by self-interest or corruption or
 10   symbolic political foes have suggested.  We are
 11   travelling and working together for our people and
 12   especially our children and our grandchildren.  We
 13   are not blind to our commitments and we still
 14   continue to honour our sacred treaties.
 15               96 years ago, my great grandfather --
 16   our great grandfather shook hands and made a
 17   commitment to build this nation called Canada.  To
 18   build it together.  We still live up to that
 19   commitment and we will continue to live up to that
 20   commitment.  We expect others to honour these
 21   treaties as we do.  We waited 96 years to finally
 22   have our treaties and our treaty entitlements to
 23   be fulfilled.  We expect Hydro and the Province to
 24   respect our choices that we have made.
 25               We realize and we know that there are
07661
  1   billions of dollars that continue to come out of
  2   our lands and resources every day from our
  3   traditional lands, created from the power of our
  4   great northern rivers, the minerals, the forest
  5   and tourism, on yet we also know that we have not
  6   received our share.
  7               Some people complain that First Nation
  8   people don't pay taxes, but we had our share of
  9   taxes.  I have a tax that sometimes costs our
 10   spirit and our lives.  I understand some of this
 11   tax money goes to the world bank to support
 12   environmentalists, to support people that say they
 13   want to protect our environment.  People at the
 14   same time who promote policies for the
 15   governments.  I like to say that that money, tax
 16   money, should come directly to NCN because we are
 17   the original protectors of our land and we will
 18   continue to protect our land.  You have heard the
 19   old story from some of my colleagues and you
 20   continue to hear stories from leaders today about
 21   colonial oppression.
 22               Respected Commissioners, you have
 23   heard the cries of injustice, bitterness and pain,
 24   injustices of the past, 500 years, still live in
 25   our soul.  It is an inherited pain.  We don't want
07662
  1   our children to continue to carry that pain and
  2   that bitterness any more.  We want to be an
  3   independent strong nation, but we can't cry our
  4   way to nationhood.  We cannot continue to use
  5   politics of pity any more.  It doesn't work.
  6               When you hear the story of despair,
  7   there is also a story of hope, not just a story we
  8   are trying to create.  I can change as an
  9   individual.
 10               I was quoted yesterday, comments I
 11   made in 1992.  I would like to clarify,
 12   Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, three years before
 13   that, I lost a son because of the CRD.  He was on
 14   the project.  I was bitter, but I have changed.
 15               I don't want to hold my people hostage
 16   because of my pain.  People can change, Hydro can
 17   change and we are changing in our community.
 18   Change is the message of the four seasons.  Change
 19   is the message of the flowing leaves that we feel
 20   every day from the fourth direction.  The sky and
 21   the universe itself, there is nothing, this is not
 22   something to fear, but to embrace.
 23               We can show the world and our people
 24   that we can work together, to protect our land and
 25   to benefit from gifts that we receive from our
07663
  1   land.  We must overcome our doubts, our fears and
  2   mistrust and move forward towards the morning
  3   light, towards a new day, towards a brighter
  4   tomorrow.
  5               Our youth know this.  They have spoken
  6   to you at this hearing.  I am to acknowledge my
  7   respect for them.  These youth, they represent the
  8   fourth world.  They even started gnawing at the
  9   feet of the corporation and they will continue to
 10   gnaw at the feet of other corporations.  They come
 11   with a new confidence, self-respect and knowledge
 12   that will open the great gifts of our people and
 13   First Nations people across this Canada and people
 14   across this world.
 15               These young people, they also
 16   represent a new wind that is blowing across our
 17   territory and our community.  They have a new
 18   approach in a way that gives them the real tools
 19   of survival in this reality of the 21st century.
 20   Our people are still spinning their wheels in the
 21   19th century, while the rest of Canadian society
 22   is in the 21st century.  We want to fill that gap.
 23               Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, you have
 24   heard words and words are powerful.  Words can be
 25   used and abused.  Words can influence.  Words can
07664
  1   hurt and they can heal.  Throughout this hearing,
  2   you have heard many, many words and some of them
  3   were very emotional and expressed ideas that were
  4   meant to influence you.
  5               It is important that you interpret the
  6   words and also to look past the words and see the
  7   truth and the facts behind those words.
  8   Throughout this hearing, you have also had
  9   representation from those who call themselves
 10   elders or other people who have claimed to
 11   represent elders.
 12               I want to tell you that there is a
 13   difference in our culture between elders and the
 14   elderly.  Traditional elders are very respectful.
 15   Every time I go to a sweat ceremony, I am reminded
 16   by my uncle Wellington Spence about the seven
 17   natural laws:  Love, respect, humility, courage,
 18   honesty, wisdom and truth.
 19               I think we have used these natural
 20   laws in this process, especially the law about
 21   love.  Traditional elders know how to express
 22   their anger in a way that doesn't attack humane or
 23   touch the other person.  They give you words to
 24   think about.
 25               They are the force behind our
07665
  1   knowledge, our traditional knowledge and our signs
  2   and our youth understand this and value these
  3   elders.
  4               You have also heard the use of
  5   traditional knowledge, our knowledge, and natural
  6   science are part of our sustainability as a people
  7   since time immemorial within our territory.  It is
  8   said we will use this knowledge to ensure the
  9   Wuskwatim project delivers the promise that is
 10   expected of it.
 11               Traditional knowledge is the
 12   sustainability for our environment, our economy
 13   and our culture.  It is the strength of who we are
 14   as Nisichawayasihk.
 15               Our partnership with Hydro is not
 16   between council and corporation or government and
 17   corporation.  It is between a people and a
 18   corporation run by people.  This is the power of
 19   the personal versus the impersonal.  It is the
 20   power of seeing transform these hearings.  That's
 21   how the future on this project will be.  It will
 22   always be personal to us.  Hydro and its people
 23   will respond in kind.
 24               Her life are very precious,
 25   Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, and I am happy to
07666
  1   see NCN women sitting here to represent the
  2   spiritual significance of the water and the water
  3   will continue to flow in perpetuity.  That is why
  4   our grandfather put that in the treaty.
  5               I am happy to see the grass still
  6   growing.  When I look at the sky, I still see the
  7   sun travelling across the sky and when I look
  8   beyond the sun, I see the universe.  The universe
  9   still exists.  My people didn't leave the
 10   universe.  The spirit of my ancestors are still
 11   within that universe.
 12               I feel the presence of our ancestors.
 13   These ancestors have fought and prayed for us and
 14   died for us for the last 500 years.  We are here
 15   today to honour those ancestors.
 16               If we want to honour our ancestors, we
 17   must want to continue to learn to exist as Cree
 18   people, Nisichawayasihk Cree people and we have a
 19   responsibility to exist as a people and to carry
 20   on for our children.
 21               I know there are tremendous challenges
 22   for us, and there are risks as well as benefits,
 23   but there are also tremendous consequences if we
 24   don't accept the challenge.  But, life is a
 25   challenge anyway, so we must move ahead.  There is
07667
  1   no limit in challenges.  There is no limit written
  2   any place.  There is no limit to express orally in
  3   these challenges.  We have to turn these
  4   challenges into opportunities for our children.
  5               I don't think we can return to the
  6   hunter gathering, the exitance of our ancestors,
  7   but we must carry that wisdom that they carried.
  8   That perceptional wisdom, we will carry in
  9   perpetuity as a way of participating into the
 10   future.
 11               Where the challenge, if we face it, we
 12   will require a totally different way of living
 13   with the land.  We are only given one chance to
 14   step into this river of opportunity.  If we don't,
 15   we lose that opportunity for our children and we
 16   will side step our destiny, our devine destiny
 17   that was given to us by our Creator and our
 18   children will suffer.
 19               Finally, we have no right to give up
 20   on our children.  We have no right to give up
 21   protecting our land and we won't do that.  Thank
 22   you.
 23               MR. THOMAS:  Good afternoon.  As
 24   always, it is quite difficult to just speak the
 25   way I normally would when I hear such stories
07668
  1   coming from my people in terms of the impacts that
  2   various things have had on my people.  I
  3   definitely feel the pain and it touches me.  I
  4   feel for my people from South Indian Lake who have
  5   come before you and appeared before you in many
  6   different ways, through CASIL, DRSIL and
  7   O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation and even as Metis.  I
  8   certainly feel for them.  I sympathize with their
  9   situation, and certainly I would like to see a
 10   favourable resolution to their issues.  And I just
 11   want to go on record as saying that I do support
 12   them in their endeavours to get justice for the
 13   wrongs that they feel have been done to them.  I
 14   don't harbour any ill will towards anybody who has
 15   come from South Indian Lake.  You have every right
 16   to speak your mind, to speak on behalf of those
 17   who you represent.  Even though sometimes I have
 18   been named as an individual who is responsible for
 19   some of this stuff, I stand with you in terms of
 20   the efforts that you are undertaking to seek
 21   redress for the issues that you feel need to be
 22   rightfully addressed by the powers that be,
 23   whether it is Hydro or the Government of Canada,
 24   or the Government of Manitoba.  I just want to
 25   make sure that that is clear.
07669
  1               I understand Mr. Baker made a comment
  2   about me not being here yesterday, he wanted to
  3   say something.  When we first started this process
  4   we were talking with each other and that there has
  5   been limited talk between us since.  But I just
  6   want to say that I tried to rectify that by saying
  7   hi to Chris and shaking his hand today, and will
  8   continue to do so after we are finished.
  9               I take none of the comments that are
 10   made personally.  We are all trying to do a very
 11   difficult job.  We have a lot of history amongst
 12   us, and we have to try and figure out ways to deal
 13   with those issues.  So, that's all, now I will get
 14   into my written presentation.
 15               As the Councillor of the
 16   Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation and holder of the
 17   Future Development portfolio, I wish to thank you
 18   for listening so closely and respectfully to all
 19   of us over this past year, and for this
 20   opportunity to make these closing comments about
 21   the Wuskwatim project.
 22               In doing so, I just want to state for
 23   the record that for all of us that are sitting
 24   here as leaders of our community, we face very
 25   tremendous challenges, and we try and do
07670
  1   everything as best as we possibly can.  All of us
  2   that are sitting here have been raised by our
  3   grandparents, so we have inherited the values that
  4   come from their experiences in life, but we are
  5   also younger people and we also reflect the
  6   current times.
  7               I just want to say, I just want to
  8   state that I honour our grandparents while we are
  9   going through this.
 10               Over the past three months you have
 11   heard detailed evidence about Wuskwatim and many
 12   other issues, most of it as being descriptive and
 13   explanatory.  Some has been positive and some has
 14   been negative.  Some has been totally irrelevant
 15   and some has been intentionally misleading.  You
 16   have heard criticism from some interveners
 17   regarding the environmental impact statements and
 18   need for and alternatives to submissions in
 19   relation to the projects.
 20               As I have indicated throughout the
 21   proceedings, we welcome healthy constructive
 22   debate on these important projects, however, we
 23   have been disappointed with the quality of some
 24   presentations and the type of evidence that has
 25   been brought forward.
07671
  1               Unfortunately, a number of the
  2   presenters seemed to have focused their energy on
  3   slowing or blocking this process, rather than
  4   actually contributing to a solid assessment of the
  5   submissions that we have made.
  6               From the outset, we welcomed and
  7   looked forward to presenting our work for public
  8   comment.  We are proud of our work, and we want
  9   this project to be the best it can be.  However,
 10   we find it almost unbelievable that some groups
 11   that engaged in some irresponsible behaviour now
 12   have the audacity to complain that this process
 13   has not been fair.
 14               At many points throughout the hearing
 15   my feeling has been that the Commissioners have
 16   bent over backwards to ensure fairness to these
 17   participants, and that as proponents we have ended
 18   up having no choice but to respond to matters that
 19   were beyond the terms of reference for this
 20   hearing.
 21               In addition, we have had to find ways
 22   to do this respectfully, while maintaining our
 23   goal, which is to have this project recommended
 24   for licensing.  These unfortunate tactics have
 25   lengthened and complicated an already complex
07672
  1   process.  At this point I cannot help but think
  2   that those participants who participated in this
  3   way squandered not only the funding they received,
  4   but also good will and their own reputations.  I
  5   am quite concerned about what this may mean for
  6   the other First Nations such as TCN, War Lake, Fox
  7   Lake, York Factory, and other First Nations who
  8   have also development aspirations, and long past
  9   histories with hydro development.  Hopefully, they
 10   will benefit from NCN's experience.
 11               We contrast this approach with the
 12   approaches taken by Consumer's Association of
 13   Canada, Manitoba Society of Seniors, and Time to
 14   Respect Earth Ecosystem, Resource Conservation
 15   Manitoba, for example.  While we disagree with
 16   some of the areas with their conclusions, we
 17   believe their involvement in this process has
 18   added to the dialogue and there will be benefits
 19   for all of us in the long run due to their
 20   participation.
 21               Our First Nation has worked as a full
 22   participant with Manitoba Hydro.  The interests of
 23   our First Nation and our environment have not been
 24   compromised in any way.  In weighing all of the
 25   evidence before you, I ask that you keep in mind
07673
  1   the following points from the perspective of our
  2   Cree Nation.
  3               First, we have drawn on our experience
  4   with past hydro projects to ensure Wuskwatim
  5   brings positive growth and not destruction to our
  6   community.
  7               Second, we have defined our terms in
  8   the partnership agreement that we are developing
  9   with Manitoba Hydro.
 10               Thirdly, we have brought together a
 11   future development team from our own community to
 12   work towards the development of this project.  And
 13   as you have seen and heard, we lead and direct our
 14   own independent legal team, and technical and
 15   scientific advisers to ensure that any partnership
 16   with Hydro is equitable and beneficial to our
 17   people.  They are responsible to us, not Hydro.
 18               Fourth, since 2001 when a majority of
 19   NCN members voted to approve an agreement in
 20   principle with Manitoba Hydro to develop
 21   Wuskwatim, the Future Development office has
 22   created around 25 to 30 new positions for NCN
 23   members, including the community consultant
 24   positions.  You heard from our consultants Monday,
 25   when they described their extensive activities and
07674
  1   the challenges that they faced.  They are
  2   dedicated, effective, and try their best to be
  3   objective, and I would just like to publicly thank
  4   them for the tremendous efforts that they have put
  5   forward.
  6               Fifth, we have negotiated funding for
  7   the new Atoskiwin Training and Employment Centre
  8   of Excellence to provide training opportunities
  9   and jobs for our people.  The plan is for this
 10   state of art centre to become part of the post
 11   secondary education system in Northern Manitoba.
 12   It is being built as an adjunct to our efforts to
 13   try to train our people for the project, but we
 14   are not only looking towards the life of the
 15   project, which is around six years, we are looking
 16   way beyond that.  We want to make sure that we
 17   have an institution where we can provide training
 18   opportunities for our people to become well
 19   positioned, not only for the community itself and
 20   in terms of its needs, electricians, carpenters,
 21   plumbers, et cetera, but we want to make sure that
 22   they receive entrepreneurial training as well so
 23   that they can become very business orientated into
 24   the future.  So we are thinking very long-term
 25   when we are talking about taking an opportunity
07675
  1   and capitalizing on it as best as we possibly can
  2   to maximize benefits for our people.
  3               Sixth, to provide immediate employment
  4   and on the job training opportunities for our
  5   people, we have negotiated the advancement of the
  6   upgrading of the road from highway 391 to our
  7   people.  We have tried to do that in order to
  8   ensure that the training is relevant for the
  9   project by constructing a road from the junction
 10   to the reserve.  The training that was provided
 11   there, that is very relevant in terms of a
 12   contract that we hopefully will get to do, to
 13   construct the road to the project itself, and to
 14   provide training for our people for that purpose.
 15               Seventh, we have concluded or are
 16   close to concluding several negotiations, some of
 17   which include other parties such as the
 18   Burntwood/Nelson agreement, which will set out the
 19   terms and conditions of employment for NCN members
 20   and other northern Aboriginal people, a contract
 21   to ensure NCN members will take leading positions
 22   in providing for catering services during the
 23   construction phase of the development, and a
 24   contract to build the Wuskwatim access road that I
 25   mentioned previously.  And we are looking at other
07676
  1   opportunities as well that we are checking to see
  2   if we can get involved in other areas such as
  3   perhaps maybe the provision of security services
  4   for the project.
  5               Eighth, we have worked with Hydro to
  6   prepare and submit the most comprehensive
  7   environmental impact statements ever undertaken
  8   for a Manitoba Hydro generation project, and for
  9   the first time, with our traditional knowledge,
 10   used along scientific knowledge.  From the very
 11   beginning, we have used our people's traditional
 12   knowledge through a community driven process to
 13   ensure the construction of Wuskwatim will have
 14   very minimal impact on our environment and our
 15   traditional way of life, while at the same time
 16   maximizing the benefits as a key source of future
 17   revenue for our community.  As you have heard from
 18   community consultants and our joint environmental
 19   management team, our traditional knowledge was a
 20   deciding factor in selecting the location of the
 21   camp to house construction workers.  And NCN
 22   Elders considered the entire resource management
 23   area to be sacred, and we used traditional
 24   knowledge to identify and avoid the most sensitive
 25   areas when deciding where to put the camp and
07677
  1   access road to the site.
  2               Ninth, we will continue to use our
  3   traditional knowledge through the implementation
  4   process in relation to the various environmental
  5   management plans.  Adaptive management must
  6   continue to incorporate our traditional knowledge.
  7   We have conducted ceremonies in a manner that is
  8   consistent with our heritage and in a respectful
  9   way, and we have determined that further such
 10   ceremonies must be held once the projects are
 11   approved and before any construction begins.
 12               Tenth, as you know, we have also been
 13   involved in obtaining all the regulatory approvals
 14   for the project, which is a completely separate
 15   issue from our negotiations with Hydro.  We have
 16   been working just as hard to ensure that
 17   opposition to the project doesn't damage our
 18   critical export market throughout North America.
 19   We have helped to ensure key customers like X-cel
 20   Energy see the value of importing power from us by
 21   making sure that they have the facts.
 22               Eleventh, we have been working to
 23   ensure that our Aboriginal and Treaty rights and
 24   entitlements are protected as we move towards a
 25   partnership agreement with Manitoba Hydro.
07678
  1               Twelfth, we were instrumental in
  2   selection of 200 megawatt low head design for the
  3   generation project, rather than the high head
  4   design which would have generated 350 megawatts
  5   and far greater profits.  As you have heard, this
  6   design reduces flooding to less than one half of a
  7   square kilometer compared with 140 square
  8   kilometers with a high head design.  No other
  9   hydro dam in Manitoba has resulted in such minimal
 10   flooding.  No other hydro project has been subject
 11   to the level of scrutiny and debate that this one
 12   has.
 13               This is not CRD, and in our
 14   experiences, this is not the Hydro of 30 years
 15   ago.  And compared with 30 years ago, we are now a
 16   much greatly empowered First Nation.
 17               The decision to go forward with
 18   Wuskwatim will be our collective decision.  It
 19   won't be a decision just by Hydro, nor will it be
 20   just the Chiefs, nor will it be just us as members
 21   as Council, nor will it be just a small group
 22   of -- small but very vocal group of dissidents
 23   that come from our community.  It will be the
 24   people of Nisichawayasihk as a whole who will
 25   decide what our future will be.
07679
  1               We believe that this is an excellent
  2   opportunity for our First Nation, and a defining
  3   moment for our future.  We ask the Commission to
  4   reflect on the evidence it has heard over the past
  5   three months and return strong recommendations
  6   that will clearly indicate the strengths of the
  7   proposed project.
  8               Your recommendations will have a very
  9   important part to play in shaping the views of our
 10   members as we approach the vote on whether to
 11   proceed or not.  The confidence you will instill
 12   will greatly assist in the process of development,
 13   as we move forward as a self-governing,
 14   self-reliant and self-sufficient nation.
 15               We appreciate the opportunity that has
 16   been given to us to go through this environmental
 17   hearing process.  We appreciate that we live in a
 18   democratic society.  You have witnessed that we
 19   have had a very extensive community driven process
 20   occur in our community, and there is -- I don't
 21   think there has been any other process that has
 22   involved the use of two democratic referendums to
 23   make decisions as to whether to move forward or
 24   not.  So, we respect democratic principles and we
 25   respect the right of people to express their
07680
  1   views, whether they are positive or negative.  I
  2   certainly have learned a lot from the experiences
  3   of hearing my own people come forward and express
  4   their opinions on how they see things.  And that
  5   includes, that includes the cross-examinations on
  6   me that have occurred quite extensively.  I
  7   appreciate going through those experiences.  Les
  8   and Chris, I thank you for your efforts.
  9               I just want to say in closing that my
 10   sister made a comment here that she has been very
 11   vocal in terms of expressing her opinions against
 12   what we have been doing.  To her, I just want to
 13   say, even though she is not here, that I take
 14   nothing personally, and that I do love her very
 15   much as well.  Thank you very much.
 16               MR. JERRY PRIMROSE:  Good afternoon,
 17   Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, and all members in
 18   this forum.  It seems like a long time ago when I
 19   stood up here and made opening comments, opening
 20   shots to say.  I think that this process has been
 21   a tremendous boost for us as people, the
 22   tremendous opportunities that we have had to
 23   express our democracy, within our democracy.  We
 24   thank all the people for that.  I think that is so
 25   important for us.
07681
  1               My name is Jerry Primrose, I am chief
  2   of Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation.  I am very proud
  3   to be here with my colleagues and Council,
  4   although we have one person that is not here, but
  5   it is a dedication that she shows that she wants
  6   to be in Nelson House to make sure that she is
  7   there when people need her.  I talk about Shirley
  8   Linklater, our youngest Council member.  Also, I
  9   thank our community consultants for being here
 10   with us, our youth and also our elders.
 11               Mr. Chairman, Nisichawayasihk Cree
 12   Nation's vision statement states, and I quote,
 13               "To exercise sovereignty that will
 14               sustain a healthy and prosperous
 15               future for NCN."
 16   This vision statement is also recognized in our
 17   agreement in principle which was passed by our
 18   people.
 19               I am very proud of the democratic
 20   principles that our First Nation believes in and
 21   also applies.  At this hearing, political
 22   opponents in our First Nation have questioned the
 23   legitimacy of our government and our leaders.  I
 24   want to make very clear that our First Nations
 25   Government is duly and properly elected.  That has
07682
  1   been confirmed by the courts.
  2               Our Government is not only legitimate,
  3   it is very responsible and very progressive.  We
  4   have chosen the future, not the past.  As
  5   responsible leaders, we have no choice.  The
  6   Wuskwatim project is very important to us, and we
  7   are here not just because of a few Councillors
  8   thought it was a good idea.  Our NCN membership
  9   voted to give us the permission to move forward
 10   and explore and frame this project in a way that
 11   our First Nation would benefit and that our
 12   environment would not be harmed.
 13               People have also tried to say
 14   Wuskwatim is similar to CRD and that we are being
 15   used by Manitoba Hydro.  Let me tell you that this
 16   is not CRD.  This time around we have been
 17   included and intimately involved right from the
 18   beginning.  Our voice and our ideas and our will
 19   have been very much expressed.
 20               In Manitoba Hydro, there are new
 21   people, new policies and a new approach.  This is
 22   not the 1970s, this is 2004.  Still, many of the
 23   people opposing the project have done so on the
 24   basis of something that happened 30 years ago.
 25   They want to remain stuck in the past.  And we
07683
  1   cannot do that, we need to look forward, not in
  2   the rear view mirror.
  3               So while you have heard some emotional
  4   arguments against Wuskwatim by our brothers and
  5   sisters from PCN, DRSIL, CASIL, and the MMF, and
  6   some environmentalists, we know they have used
  7   this forum to further their own agendas.  While we
  8   can respect them as seekers to pursue their goals,
  9   whether it is for independence, recognition,
 10   compensation, or other things, their agendas don't
 11   relate to this project.  We cannot support them by
 12   deferring or delaying our plans for the future,
 13   nor do we want to be used for their political
 14   purposes.
 15               Focusing on the past is not going to
 16   be good enough for our children.  They can't wait
 17   decades for solutions.  Their futures and lives
 18   are on the line.  And the representatives of a
 19   majority of First Nations in this Province
 20   understand this.  These are leaders who have many
 21   of the same challenges as we do, and who have
 22   publicly supported our effort to develop
 23   Wuskwatim.  They include the Assembly of Manitoba
 24   Chiefs, AMC, Manitoba Keewatinook Ininew Okimowin,
 25   or MKO, the Southern Chiefs Organization, commonly
07684
  1   known as SCO, the Chemawawin Cree Nation,
  2   Mosakahiken Cree Nation, Tataskweyak Cree Nation,
  3   Fox Lake First Nation, and also the Swampy Cree
  4   Tribal Council.  I would like to express my
  5   sincere thanks for their support.  They recognize
  6   the benefits of Wuskwatim, not only for NCN,
  7   Manitoba Hydro, or other Manitobans, but also for
  8   Aboriginal residents and communities in the north.
  9   They come from a place of knowledge and experience
 10   rooted in the Aboriginal Cree culture.
 11               You have also heard from business
 12   leaders, local government, unions, and others in
 13   support of this project.  They include the
 14   Winnipeg, Manitoba, and the Thompson Chamber of
 15   Commerce, the mayors of Thompson and The Pas, the
 16   Manitoba Federation of Labour, the Allied Hydro
 17   Council of Manitoba, the Operating Engineers of
 18   Manitoba, the International Brotherhood of
 19   Electrical Workers, the Manitoba Industrial Power
 20   Users Group, Inco Limited, the Norman Regional
 21   Development Corporation, North Central Community
 22   Futures, Northern Association of Career Colleges,
 23   and also the Keewatin Community College.
 24               This broad support from businesses,
 25   municipal governments, education and labour has
07685
  1   been very important to us and has helped confirm
  2   our efforts to bring this project forward to our
  3   people.
  4               The Wuskwatim project is modest by
  5   Manitoba Hydro's standards, but to the
  6   Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, it represents a huge
  7   opportunity to provide both short term and long
  8   lasting benefits and hope for a brighter future
  9   for our people.
 10               There are two huge advantages for us:
 11   One, there will be minimal environmental impacts.
 12   The low head design we chose for Wuskwatim will
 13   cause the least amount of flooding of any
 14   hydroelectric project ever developed in northern
 15   Manitoba.  The exhaustive environmental studies we
 16   have seen show the project will have relatively
 17   little impact on nearby land, plants, and animals.
 18   Nothing that has been brought forward over the
 19   past many weeks has credibly challenged our
 20   conclusion in this regard.
 21               Second, our people have been willing
 22   to move forward with this project because there
 23   are significant benefits that will flow for our
 24   people, training, jobs and long terms revenues.
 25   Many of the benefits and services we now have are
07686
  1   paid for with the money we receive every year from
  2   the Federal Government.  Much of that funding is
  3   fixed, which means there is usually not enough to
  4   pay for all the things we need.  With our rapidly
  5   growing population, these funds are stretched
  6   every year, more and more every year.  The housing
  7   shortage is just one example of where revenues
  8   don't meet our needs.
  9               Funding for higher education is also
 10   fixed, which means we are not able to support
 11   everyone who applies.  If Wuskwatim is approved,
 12   we believe, based on careful analysis, thoroughly
 13   tested in this process, that our profits will grow
 14   over time.  This will allow us to meet the needs
 15   of our people much better than we can today.  We
 16   hope to fill the gaps in government funding and
 17   meet the priorities NCN members will set.
 18               My hope and my dream is that this will
 19   result in a better life for all NCN members now
 20   and long into the future.  This will give true
 21   meaning to thinking of the seven generations, a
 22   Cree principle that when we act today, we should
 23   be thinking not just for today and ourselves, but
 24   a span of seven generations.
 25               Even without Wuskwatim, we would still
07687
  1   need to address the needs of our people.  We would
  2   need to invent another engine for our economic
  3   growth and future prosperity.
  4               There have been a lot of critics of
  5   Wuskwatim.  None of them have offered an
  6   alternative to the project that would create the
  7   economic growth we need to fund our basic needs.
  8   Yes, there is risk, but these are well-defined and
  9   far outweighed by the potential benefits to our
 10   people in the short-term and also in the
 11   long-term.
 12               We believe our conclusions have been
 13   supported in this process by the final submissions
 14   from the Consumer's Association of Canada,
 15   Manitoba Society of Seniors, and we thank them for
 16   their fair analysis.
 17               Our Government believes that Wuskwatim
 18   is currently the best way to address our
 19   challenges, and we are continuing to work to
 20   achieve the best possible deal for our people.
 21               There are some who have unfavourably
 22   compared the SOU with the Peace of the Braves
 23   Agreement signed by the Government of Quebec and
 24   the nine Cree Nations in 2002.
 25               In fact, these two agreements are not
07688
  1   comparable, as you have heard in evidence.  We met
  2   several years ago with Quebec's Grand Chief, Dr.
  3   Ted Moses, Grand Council of the Crees, to share
  4   our experiences.  Ours is a business partnership
  5   between our nation and Manitoba Hydro in regard to
  6   a single, small hydro project.  The Peace of the
  7   Braves is a comprehensive economic, social, and
  8   cultural agreement between the Provincial
  9   Government and the governing authority for the
 10   Crees of Quebec.  It deals with all the resources
 11   in the area, including forestry, mining, and
 12   hydroelectric development.
 13               The proposed development in Quebec
 14   involves five dams and over 800 square kilometers
 15   of flooding.  Compare this agreement to our SOU,
 16   it is like comparing a muskrat to a caribou herd.
 17   There is no comparison, no valid thoughtful
 18   comparison can be made.
 19               We would like to thank the secretary,
 20   Rory Grewar, for his patience, his helpfulness,
 21   respectfulness in this process.  We would also
 22   thank everybody, especially the critics and people
 23   who have been saying negative comments about Chief
 24   and Council of NCN.  Critics are our best teachers
 25   for they keep us in balance in our minds and also
07689
  1   our harmonious nature.
  2               We have no enemies.  The only enemy we
  3   have is time itself.  Time waits for no man in
  4   this journey.
  5               In conclusion, we want to thank the
  6   Commissioners for listening and hearing our
  7   proposals and also our concerns.  The sound of
  8   Cree language has been music to our ears, even
  9   though some of the arguments might not have been
 10   in agreement to us.  Our First Nation has learned
 11   and grown from this experience, and I am convinced
 12   we are much stronger and very much wiser because
 13   of this.
 14               I also want to acknowledge Manitoba
 15   Hydro for its efforts in working alongside of us.
 16   I want to thank all our NCN Future Development
 17   Team, including co-managers Norman Linklater and
 18   Marcel Moody.  Also, I also would like to thank
 19   our elders for standing beside us, our community
 20   consultants, our legal and technical advisers.
 21   And also I guess all the Council members that are
 22   here with me for their support, participation, and
 23   patience in this major initiative.
 24               As leaders of NCN we have gone through
 25   tremendous pressures, personal attacks and so
07690
  1   forth.  Personally, I have been taken to court
  2   twice for a peace bond application.  You know, I
  3   want to tell you, even all through that, we have
  4   been very cool as Council members, and I would
  5   like to thank the Council members for that.  You
  6   know, we have not adversely reacted to any of the
  7   negative comments.  But, you know, we are after
  8   all only human beings and sometimes it has been
  9   hard.
 10               I also want to thank all NCN members,
 11   both here and also at home, for their patience in
 12   this process.  I guess lastly, but not least, I
 13   would like to thank our Council member, Elvis
 14   Thomas, who is a portfolio holder for Future
 15   Development, who led this process for NCN.  He has
 16   shown great dedication and commitment in keeping
 17   this process on track, and it has allowed me as
 18   Chief to attend the needs of my community and its
 19   NCN members.
 20               Mr. Chairman, Mr. Commissioners, this
 21   has been a very difficult process for us.  People
 22   don't know and don't see, maybe don't even hear
 23   sometimes.  I would like to thank you as Chairman
 24   and also Commissioners for your extraordinary
 25   patience in this process.  As an individual, as a
07691
  1   human being, I only think, jeez, I can't even sit
  2   for 20 minutes in one spot and listen to all this
  3   technical information.  And for the commitment you
  4   have shown, it has been tremendous, it has been
  5   real, for me a blessing to see that, because I
  6   think you have been very serious, and we thank you
  7   for that from the bottom of our hearts, we thank
  8   you. Ekosi.
  9               THE CHAIRMAN:  I thank you all,
 10   members of NCN and Manitoba Hydro for your
 11   presentation.
 12               MR. GREWAR:  Mr. Chairman, just before
 13   you begin your remarks, if we can enter as MH/NCN
 14   1051 the final submission brief of Nisichawayasihk
 15   Cree Nation and Manitoba Hydro?
 16               THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.
 17   
 18               (EXHIBIT MH/NCN 1051: Final submission
 19               brief of Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation
 20               and Manitoba Hydro)
 21   
 22               THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you.  You may
 23   stay there or go back if you wish.
 24               As Chairman of the Commission for this
 25   hearing, of the hearing panel, pardon me, I will
07692
  1   exercise the prerogative of saying a few closing
  2   remarks, and they will be brief.
  3               It looks like a lot of writing, but it
  4   is my scribbling takes a lot of space and it is
  5   difficult to read.
  6               You may have noticed that I wore today
  7   a feather in my pocket, just in respect for a
  8   symbol that has, not only a symbol, but the
  9   feather which has a great deal of significance for
 10   Aboriginal people.  It was given to me by a very
 11   close friend, a colleague and coworker in the late
 12   1980s while we were working together to implement
 13   the official languages of the Yukon.  I cherish it
 14   and keep -- it has been hanging over my bed every
 15   since.  So I thought it was appropriate today to
 16   use and bring it here on this closing day of our
 17   hearings.
 18               We have reached this point where it is
 19   time to close and to park.  This marks the 32nd
 20   day of these hearings which were spread nearly
 21   over 100 days, starting on March 1st this year,
 22   including two days of hearing in the Thompson and
 23   two days of hearing in The Pas, and the rest of
 24   those days here in Winnipeg.
 25               Some of you I am sure must feel like
07693
  1   exclaiming, it is about time.  Some might think it
  2   is already over, I don't know.  If you do say the
  3   latter, you must also wonder where all the time
  4   has gone.
  5               The fact is, almost every sitting of
  6   these hearings brought together large groups of
  7   participants, as indeed is the case now, and some
  8   time to room capacity.
  9               Some of you were here, in fact, almost
 10   every day.  During this time our paths have
 11   crossed numerous times.  Many have had to work
 12   arduously throughout this process, preparing for
 13   presentations, for cross-examination of
 14   presentation heaves, et cetera, or for intervening
 15   in the question time periods, but always listening
 16   to the abundance of information which flowed
 17   within the context of this hearings, either in the
 18   form of the spoken word or in the probably 7000
 19   plus pages of transcript and the literally
 20   hundreds of thousands of written pages of text
 21   which were prepared within the context of these
 22   hearings.
 23               Many faces are now familiar after so
 24   many days of encounter.  Hopefully, new
 25   friendships have been struck among working
07694
  1   colleagues, old acquaintances hopefully have been
  2   renewed, and especially we hope that these many
  3   days of hearing have offered the opportunity to
  4   exchange views and to listen to one another's
  5   views.  I also hope that these many days where
  6   people were brought together for breakfast, lunch,
  7   coffee breaks, et cetera, have offered occasions
  8   for sharing views and opinions which hopefully
  9   have enabled you to better understand each other's
 10   opinions relating to the proposals for the
 11   Wuskwatim projects.
 12               My colleagues and I on this hearing
 13   panel, we are honoured to be the Commissioners
 14   representing both the CEC and PUB as part of these
 15   hearings.  As Chairperson, I can say that our goal
 16   was to gain a full understanding of every aspect
 17   of the proposed projects being proposed, and an
 18   expression of all the views and opinions and the
 19   concerns of a large number of organizations and
 20   individuals on the merits of the proposed
 21   projects.
 22               We are fully aware that not all are in
 23   agreement with the various aspects of the proposed
 24   projects, and not share all the same vision and
 25   hope for the proposed projects, and not all share
07695
  1   the same vision of how the proposed projects will
  2   benefit them in the long-term.  In some cases, the
  3   experiences of the past caused blindness in regard
  4   to future expectations.
  5               It requires trust, confidence to cross
  6   the threshold to the future.  The good book
  7   reminds us that we have a duty to bring our
  8   talents and our resources to fruition.  That means
  9   making them work for our own development and
 10   growth, and for the development and growth of our
 11   children.
 12               We as Commissioners have the
 13   responsibility and the duty to report to the
 14   Minister on the proposed projects as per the
 15   parameters of the terms of reference laid out for
 16   us.  We can only advise and recommend.  We do not
 17   make decisions, and that is as it should be.  But
 18   what we recommend we know will be seriously
 19   considered.  In particular, if not accepted, our
 20   recommendations, if not accepted, the Minister,
 21   speaking for the government, will tell us and will
 22   tell you why he chose a different course of
 23   action.
 24               Personally, I am happy that these
 25   hearings are coming to a close.  It has been a
07696
  1   lengthy process, and for us it is not entirely
  2   finished.
  3               As per section 7, paragraph 3 of the
  4   Environment Act requires, we will submit our
  5   report to the Minister of Conservation.  My most
  6   sincere hope is that those who share opposing
  7   views in regards to the Wuskwatim proposals will
  8   make every attempt to listen to one another with
  9   open minds, and make every attempt to better
 10   understand what is being proposed and what is in
 11   it for them.
 12               I realize these proposals raise
 13   emotions and revive long held griefs and fears
 14   relating to past developments affecting some of
 15   the Northern Aboriginal communities.
 16               So, the responsibility and indeed duty
 17   to bring about remedies and healing falls on many
 18   shoulders, starting with the leaders of Manitoba
 19   Hydro, the leaders and elders in the communities,
 20   and the leaders in government.  Where there is a
 21   desire for peace and understanding there are new
 22   solutions to be found, and new remedies, which in
 23   the long run will bring not only healing but
 24   benefits to all people, not only within the
 25   communities, but also among them.  And no
07697
  1   Manitoban can be indifferent to that.  In as much
  2   as there is hurt, we all hurt, and together we can
  3   heal.
  4               These hearings have been a long and
  5   sometimes arduous process, and our backs get to
  6   feel it.  I want to thank you all for your
  7   participation and attention.  I believe that
  8   although there were differing views and positions
  9   held, and sometimes expressed with genuine strong
 10   feelings, generally everyone showed a respect for
 11   one another's views throughout this process.  All
 12   participants, I hope, had the opportunity to come
 13   forward and not only question the witnesses, but
 14   to bring forth their recommendations, their
 15   suggestions.
 16               I realize the CEC hearing process
 17   takes some getting used to.  I take the full blame
 18   and accept the suggestion made that I should have
 19   taken more time at the beginning of the process to
 20   explain it.  But I do feel that as we proceeded
 21   forward, participants were better able to cope
 22   with this process.
 23               It is one that is long for everyone,
 24   one that some feel is too flexible, that others
 25   feel too rigid.  We chose, we hope, to make it as
07698
  1   flexible as possible, to allow all who wish to
  2   participate.  And I tried my best to exercise
  3   fairness, endurance and patience, and I know
  4   sometimes I failed.  For that I do apologize.
  5               This being the first joint hearing on
  6   Manitoba Hydro proposals, these combining with
  7   economic as well as the socioeconomic and
  8   environmental dimensions certainly made for a more
  9   arduous and longer process.
 10               That being said, I am confident the
 11   CEC will give due consideration to some of the
 12   many suggestions to review its procedures and to
 13   achieve greater efficiency.
 14               I would like to conclude by thanking
 15   my fellow Commissioners for their support and for
 16   the work they have done on this hearing panel, and
 17   their contribution.
 18               Mr. Terry Sargeant, Mr. Bob Mayer, Ms.
 19   Kathi Avery Kinew and Mr. Harvey Nepinak, I thank
 20   you all.  Also I want to thank the CEC staff, Mr.
 21   Rory Grewar and Ms. Joyce Mueller, who have kept
 22   us on the right-of-way all this time.
 23               I wish to thank our advisers, Mr. Mel
 24   Falk, Ms. Jean McClellan, Ms. Kyla Gibson, Mr.
 25   Brent McLean, Mr. Dave Farlinger, and Mr. Jack
07699
  1   Scriven, and others I might have missed who helped
  2   us at various times along the way.
  3               Finally, we express our appreciation
  4   to the court reporters, Cecelia, Debbie, and
  5   Darcy, for the quality of their work under very
  6   difficult conditions many times.  We also thank
  7   our able advisor, legal advisor, Mr. Doug Abra,
  8   who led us through all of this cross-examination
  9   and the compliments made a while ago by Mr.
 10   Bedford are well deserved.  As well, our
 11   appreciation goes to Frank Sarge, our sound
 12   technician, for a job well done.
 13               Before I conclude, I reiterate
 14   comments that I already made to the effect that
 15   although we will shortly adjourn these hearings,
 16   we will allow two weeks, that is until 4:00
 17   o'clock on June the 25th, to receive written
 18   comments from participants, especially in response
 19   to undertakings or exhibits filed in the last few
 20   days.
 21               As you may be aware, the Commission,
 22   as I already stated, and as per section 7,
 23   paragraph 3 of the Environment Act, has some 90
 24   days from the official date of closing to submit
 25   its report to the Minister.
07700
  1               Lastly, I want to express my deepest
  2   appreciation to the many participants from the
  3   Northern and Aboriginal communities who were with
  4   us throughout these hearings.  I for one will miss
  5   not meeting on a regular, daily basis practically,
  6   with many of them, and shaking hands, and
  7   exchanging greetings.  I especially recognize and
  8   thank the presence of the elders, and I thank them
  9   also for their advice and for their prayers that
 10   have inspired us, and we are proud of you.  I
 11   thank you.
 12               I will now ask Elder Dysart to do for
 13   the last time something he has done many times for
 14   us before, to do the official closing prayer.
 15               MR. DYSART:   Excuse me, I would like
 16   to make a short speech.
 17               Thank you.  First of all, I am very
 18   happy here to sit as an elder.  (Cree spoken).
 19               As I said in my own language, I am
 20   very glad that I understand both languages to
 21   share with my elders the things I have seen here,
 22   and the respect the people have, I will share with
 23   them when we get home.
 24               The first thing I would like to
 25   mention, Radisson, this hotel, it is beautiful and
07701
  1   the respect they have and the beautiful food, I
  2   would like to thank them.  We forgot that, but me,
  3   I never forgot to get our bellies full.
  4               The second thing I would like to say
  5   to the Commissioners, I was very, very glad to be
  6   with you guys, and thankful, every morning when I
  7   come here you greet us, and you greet the elders
  8   with great respect.
  9               Chief and Council, I am very, very
 10   proud of you.  As I understand you, you respect
 11   your grandfathers and what they taught you, that's
 12   why you are there now.
 13               I respect Hydro lawyers and my friend
 14   Valerie Lemieux.  I don't call her a lawyer, I
 15   call her my friend.  That's their lawyer, not
 16   mine.
 17               Also the Chief and Darcy, who think of
 18   their land and their people, I think of my
 19   grandchildren, my great grandchildren, I am a
 20   great grandfather already and I am very young.
 21               As I sit here and think of all you
 22   people that made speeches, I listened, quite a few
 23   of you have touched me.  The most person that ever
 24   touched me was a young kid that was only 12 years
 25   old.  When I went to make a speech at the school,
07702
  1   the kids asked me, can we call you grandpa?  And
  2   they all respect me so they all call me grandpa.
  3   One kid asked me, he was only 12 years old, in
  4   grade nine, grandpa, can you help us, even though
  5   you were hurt in life, in the way you lived, in
  6   the way you fished and trapped, but we have a
  7   future that we have to think of.  I just about
  8   cried.  I said I don't know, but we will try.  I
  9   will pass this message on to our Chief and
 10   Council, and the message will be heard, and I pray
 11   that you heard me.  For I wish deeply for my
 12   children and grandchildren and great
 13   grandchildren, for their future.  I respect you
 14   very much, I am going to miss you as a friend, and
 15   I know I got a present from you people, from her,
 16   thank you, thank you for that.  I will cherish it,
 17   and my wife thanks you for it too, and my God.
 18               As I leave here, I will pray for you.
 19   I will pray wherever you go that you do the same
 20   thing for all people, and think of us as people,
 21   not as Natives.  We are fighting now, but we will
 22   not bring our spears out to fight you.  We will
 23   fight the right view, right way.  We will try and
 24   use our way of living, and God will help us as we
 25   pray each day to find solutions of the Churchill
07703
  1   River Diversion.
  2               You know, my friends, sometimes it is
  3   hard for me to listen.  There is a little story,
  4   or a joke I will tell you.  Years ago, when I was
  5   young, an old Chief went to Ottawa.  When he came
  6   back he shook our hands and said, grandsons, I
  7   went a long ways to talk to the Government.  He
  8   said, do you know what, there are some things I
  9   can't understand.  First he said they come here
 10   and took all the fur.  They came back and they cut
 11   the trees down.  And he said, do you know they are
 12   building a railroad to get it out now.  Now they
 13   are coming after the water.  You know, that's me,
 14   I can't understand that, but hopefully, we will
 15   profit.  And that's what the Chief and Council
 16   were talking about.  That's the only way I can say
 17   it so you can understand that, the Government and
 18   the people down south are going to take everything
 19   away from us, but this time it is not going to be
 20   that easy.  We are going to fight for our rights.
 21   Thank you.
 22               Do you have something to say, my
 23   friend?
 24               THE CHAIRMAN:  I could not speak a
 25   word with that wisdom having been expressed.
07704
  1               MR. DYSART:  My friend Wellington
  2   here, I have been with him for quite a few years,
  3   27 years ago he cried when I left Thompson.  I had
  4   a case of booze with me.  And we have been sober
  5   for 27 years now, we sobered up after that.
  6               So that was a challenge we took in
  7   life, and it brightened up our minds, now we are
  8   grandfathers and great grandfathers, and we think
  9   of the world different, we think of people
 10   different.  We think we are doing the right thing
 11   for our people this time.  Hopefully, we tried to
 12   get the message across in our community, but we
 13   will try and we will never give up.  I told my
 14   wife I will never give up, I have been at it 25
 15   years.  Thank you.
 16               My partner here will say the prayer.
 17   Let us stand now.
 18               MR. W. SPENCE:  I will use my language
 19   and I won't say nothing bad about you guys.
 20   
 21               ( Closing Prayer)
 22               THE CHAIRMAN:  Just one last comment,
 23   I may have inadvertently, in reading my
 24   scribblings, I think I missed two lines.  I was in
 25   the process of thanking some of the people that
07705
  1   helped us, and I think I mentioned advisors, but
  2   then I skipped some.  I don't know if I mentioned
  3   Mr. Mel Falk, Ms. Jean McClellan, Ms. Kyla Gibson,
  4   Mr. Brent McLean, Mr. Dave Farlinger, and Mr. Jack
  5   Scriven and others.  I thought I had forgotten
  6   some that I mentioned.  Thank you.
  7   
  8               (ADJOURNED AT 4:58 P.M.)
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