3112 1 MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION 2 3 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT 4 Volume 13 5 6 Including List of Participants 7 8 9 10 Hearing 11 12 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project 13 14 Presiding: 15 Gerard Lecuyer, Chair 16 Kathi Kinew 17 Harvey Nepinak 18 Robert Mayer 19 Terry Sargeant 20 21 Tuesday, March 23, 2004 22 St. Lawrence Hall 23 Thompson, Manitoba 24 25 3113 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Clean Environment Commission: 4 Gerard Lecuyer Chairman 5 Terry Sargeant Member 6 Harvey Nepinak Member 7 Kathi Avery Kinew Member 8 Doug Abra Counsel to Commission 9 Rory Grewar Staff 10 CEC Advisors: 11 Mel Falk 12 Dave Farlinger 13 Jack Scriven 14 Jim Sandison 15 Jean McClellan 16 Brent McLean 17 Kyla Gibson 18 19 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation: 20 Chief Jerry Primrose 21 Elvis Thomas 22 Campbell MacInnes 23 Valerie Matthews Lemieux 24 25 3114 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Manitoba Conservation: 4 Larry Strachan 5 6 Manitoba Hydro/NCN: 7 Doug Bedford, Counsel 8 Bob Adkins, Counsel 9 Marvin Shaffer 10 Ed Wojczynski 11 Ken Adams 12 Carolyn Wray 13 Ron Mazur 14 Lloyd Kuczek 15 Cam Osler 16 Stuart Davies 17 David Hicks 18 Elizabeth Hicks 19 George Rempel 20 David Cormie 21 Alex Fleming 22 Marvin Shaffer 23 Blair McMahon 24 25 3115 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 4 5 Presenters: 6 Wayne Schroeder - Inco 7 Angus Dysart - Private 8 Leslie Baker - Private 9 tim Johnston - North Central Development 10 Bill Comaskey - Mayro of Thompson 11 Darryl Linklater - Private 12 Charlie Hart - Private 13 Bruce Krentz - NorMan Development 14 Rodney Spence - Private 15 Chris Baker - Private 16 William Anderson - Private 17 Leslie Baker - Private 18 Romona Neckoway - Private 19 Keith Henry Fortin - Private 20 Fred Fitzer - Private 21 Henry Garrick - Private 22 23 24 25 3116 1 2 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 3 4 Number Page 5 6 OTH 1005: Mr. Schroeder's statement, Inco, 7 Thompson, Manitoba to the Clean 8 Environment Commission, regarding 9 Wuskwatim Generation and 10 Transmission Projects application 3132 11 DRSIL-1003: Presentation of Angus Dysart 3181 12 DRSIL-1004: Correspondence from Ken 13 Agar, Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, 14 February 19, 2004, re Manitoba Hydro's 15 quarterly report of reserve 16 residents' employment from 17 specified dates 3182 18 DRSIL-1005: Engineering Poverty: 19 Colonialism and Hydroelectric 20 Development in 21 Northern Manitoba 3183 22 MH/NC1025: Correspondence from Mr. W.E. 23 Thomas to Vern Anderson, March 9, 2004, 24 re Wuskwatim Generation and 25 Transmission Project 3183 3117 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 NUMBER PAGE 3 4 OTH 1006: NorMan Regional 5 Development Corporation Wuskwatim 6 presentation to the Clean Environment 7 Commission, Bruce Krentz 3200 8 OTH 1007: Mr. Spence's presentation 9 to the hearings 3209 10 OTH 1008: Mr. Anderson's presentation on 11 behalf of Granville Lake 3239 12 OTH-1009: Presentation to Clean 13 Environment Commission on Trapline # 18 as 14 presented by Fred Fitzner 3293 15 OTH-1010: Presentation to the Clean 16 Environment Commission on Trapline # 18 as 17 presented by Henry Garrick 3293 18 OTH-1011: North Central Development 19 presentation to Manitoba Clean Environment 20 Commission 3315 21 OTH-1012: Wuskwatim Generation and 22 Transmission Projects presentation by 23 Mayor Bill Comaskey, City of 24 Thompson 3345 25 3118 1 2 3 INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS 4 5 UNDERTAKING NO. PAGE 6 7 NCN 53: Advise what percentage of NCN 8 community would have relied on fishing and trapping 9 and been affected by the change in trapping and 10 fishing prior to signing the NFA in 1977 3221 11 12 NCN 54: Advise if there are any 13 supplemental agreements to the Northern Flood 14 Agreement 3224 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3119 1 Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2 Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: We would like to begin 5 as quickly as possible. You all have had a chance 6 for coffee. If you haven't, you will get one 7 later. 8 Good morning, welcome to all of you. 9 We will continue a portion of what we started last 10 night with presentations, and if we get to finish 11 the presentations -- there are a number of them, 12 we will sit this morning and again this afternoon, 13 and if time permits, we will go back to questions 14 to the Manitoba Hydro and NCN panel. 15 I call upon, to begin this morning, I 16 call upon Wayne Schroeder. Good morning. 17 MR. SCHROEDER: My name is Wayne 18 Schroeder. 19 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Schroeder, are you 20 aware that it is an offence in Manitoba to 21 knowingly mislead this Commission? 22 MR. SCHROEDER: I am aware. 23 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 24 only the truth in proceedings before this 25 Commission? 3120 1 MR. SCHROEDER: I do. 2 3 WAYNE SCHROEDER: SWORN 4 5 MR. GREWAR: Sir, did you have any 6 sort of written presentation that you wanted to 7 have in front of them, or not? 8 MR. SCHROEDER: I have a copy and I 9 will distribute it. 10 MR. GREWAR: Now would be good, or did 11 you want to -- 12 MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman and 13 members of the Commission, my name is Wayne 14 Schroeder and I am a chief power engineer for Inco 15 in Thompson. I would like to thank you for the 16 opportunity to address you today. 17 Inco in Thompson is a nickel mine and 18 a finished nickel processing facility. The raw 19 material is fully processed here in the North. We 20 employ 1500 people directly in Thompson. We are 21 located north of the 55th parallel. Inco produces 22 more than 100 million pounds per year of copper 23 and nickel, primarily nickel. We have made 24 substantial long term investments in Manitoba and 25 view stability and predictability is key to our 3121 1 operations. We add value to a Manitoba resource 2 for shipment around the world, strengthening the 3 local, Provincial, and Federal economies. 4 Our submission is not of a technical 5 nature, but one of an entity that will be affected 6 by the development, and as such, an interested 7 party. 8 Inco is aware of and involved in the 9 conservation of resources, including energy. We 10 participate in the Voluntary Challenge Registry. 11 Mining companies overall have committed, through 12 the VCR, to a 1 percent per year reduction on a 13 per unit basis from 1995 to through to 2005. For 14 our energy reduction and management efforts, Inco 15 is a 2003 gold medal winner for the fourth year in 16 a row. 17 One of the methods that we use to 18 reduce our energy footprint is called demand-side 19 management. Our interim demand-side management 20 program is used to coordinate load management. 21 This attempts to shift load to reduce peaks and 22 valleys to flatten our demand. This helps Inco as 23 well as Manitoba Hydro. Another method we use for 24 energy management in Manitoba Hydro's PowerSmart 25 program. Inco is the largest industrial user of 3122 1 the PowerSmart program, and it is part of our 2 energy reduction efforts. Internally, we are 3 currently running an energy conservation program 4 called Power Play. Inco actively participates in 5 varied energy conservation initiatives. 6 We at Inco participate in a local 7 environmental liaison committee to involve local 8 residents in partnership to address community 9 environmental concerns. In today's world, the 10 environment is an integral part of doing business, 11 as evidenced by just a few of our activities 12 mentioned. 13 Inco in Thompson supplies the potable 14 water for the citizens of Thompson. It is a 15 public trust and we take that trust very 16 seriously. This responsibility places us in a 17 unique position with respect to the water 18 resources of the Burntwood River system and the 19 quality of that water. My department operates the 20 water treatment plant. I am aware of no issues at 21 this time that would compromise the operation of 22 the plant from this proposed project. 23 I want to state that based on a brief 24 review, Inco is supportive of the proposed 25 Wuskwatim development. The project appears to 3123 1 provide long term benefits to northern residents 2 and to the stability of the generation system 3 overall. The risks appear to be manageable, and 4 we expect that Manitoba Hydro will manage them 5 under the watchful eye of the CEC and PUB. 6 Enhancing other supply options such as demand-side 7 management and non utility generation does not 8 detract from the opportunity that Wuskwatim can 9 provide to domestic ratepayers. 10 Past projects have seen most, if not 11 all, of the benefits flow to the south, leaving 12 northern residents out of the economic gains 13 afforded to the south from that development. The 14 difference in the standard of living between the 15 north and south is largely the result of economic 16 opportunity. There are few legitimate ways to 17 sustainably develop long-term jobs and revenue in 18 the north. This is particularly true of First 19 Nations communities, who with this project have 20 the opportunity as full partners should they 21 choose to participate. This would strengthen the 22 northern economy and provide meaningful employment 23 and economic stability to local residents. 24 This Commission needs to balance the 25 interests of many parties, a difficult job. I am 3124 1 a long-term resident of the north, and like most 2 Inco employees, my children and I breathe the air, 3 drink the water, swim in the lakes. We hike, 4 fish, work, and live here, and will in the end be 5 the people whose environment is impacted or not 6 impacted, together with all northern residents. 7 Many people have come thousands of miles to try 8 and impact our collective future. I would urge 9 this Commission to give the largest weight to the 10 testimony of northern residents, both for and 11 against. Few projects have as big an opportunity 12 for meaningful northern development with as few 13 new impacts. Were it not to be built, the demand 14 for electricity that will be served by this new 15 generation will turn to coal, fossil fuel, and 16 nuclear power in other jurisdictions that will 17 replace the clean power this project could 18 provide. 19 Inco has not done an economic 20 evaluation of this project. That is a different 21 forum. We, however, see this project as a benefit 22 to the Manitoba economy overall. It is a benefit 23 to the northern economy and the people residing in 24 the north. Allowing that the project is rate 25 neutral or better, it seems to be a worthwhile 3125 1 project for the people of the north. Thank you. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 Mr. Sargeant. 4 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you, 5 Mr. Schroeder, it wasn't entirely clear to me, are 6 you speaking today on behalf of Inco or on behalf 7 of yourself? 8 MR. SCHROEDER: I am speaking on 9 behalf of Inco. 10 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Schroeder, you 12 alluded in your presentation to the participation 13 of Inco in demand-side management measures, that 14 you are involved in the Hydro PowerSmart program, 15 that you are running another energy conservation 16 program called Power Play, and that you have been 17 involved since 1995, that you have committed over 18 the years to, as part of the Voluntary Challenge 19 Registry, to reduce your demand on electricity by 20 1 percent per year. Could you give us a sense of 21 how significant that represents in terms of 22 reduction in load demand on the part of Hydro? 23 MR. SCHROEDER: Within Manitoba, 24 summer demand has been reduced by 4 million watts 25 and winter demand has been reduced by 11 million 3126 1 watts. So what that in essence has done is 2 allowed Manitoba Hydro to sell those megawatts of 3 demand to another customer without requiring 4 further generation to be built. It is gaining an 5 efficiency of the electricity that we already 6 produce in this Province. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: These additional watts 8 that have not been used by Hydro represent, I 9 presume, some savings? 10 MR. SCHROEDER: They represent savings 11 to Inco and they represent the opportunity for 12 Manitoba Hydro to sell them, presumably to the 13 export market. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: And I am not asking for 15 a specific answer, you may not be even allowed to 16 give one, but would you give us a ballpark figure 17 of how much that represents? 18 MR. SCHROEDER: I wouldn't have that 19 figure immediately available at this time, but it 20 could be provided to you, if you were to contact 21 Inco, we would be able to provide it if you 22 require. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank you. 24 Questions? 25 MR. MAYER: Mr. Schroeder, I know the 3127 1 answer to the question but I am not entirely sure 2 that everybody else does. You will confirm that 3 virtually your whole smelter and refinery is 4 operated with electricity, is that correct? 5 MR. SCHROEDER: The Thompson Inco mine 6 site is operated in its entirety with electric 7 means of both heating and processing, with the 8 exception of mine air heating, which is augmented 9 via propane. 10 MR. MAYER: So you smelt the initial 11 product, you smelt it using electric furnaces, you 12 refine it with an electrolyte process? 13 MR. SCHROEDER: That is correct. It 14 might be of note that we also do a great deal of 15 recycling in this process. If there is scrap 16 metal, when a recycling program takes effect, some 17 of those materials find their way back to the 18 smelter for re-melting. So we do a lot of 19 recycling as an inherent part of our process. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you give us an 21 inkling as to how much electricity you use on an 22 average day? 23 MR. SCHROEDER: I could give you a 24 rough estimate of the dollar cost per year and the 25 megawatt hours. It would be about, I believe 3128 1 92 million megawatt hours, and it would be 2 somewhere in the order of $27 million, roughly, 3 for the electrical usage in a year. 4 Just by way of note, if you wish to 5 gauge some measure of demand-side energy 6 conservation results, in 1991 we used 7 172 million watts of demand; this current year we 8 used 150 million watts of demand, and we produced 9 relatively the same volume of nickel for that same 10 amount of energy. So what we have done is found a 11 more efficient way to use the energy that we do 12 have, which helps Manitoba Hydro and ourselves. 13 It saves us costs and it allows Manitoba Hydro a 14 more efficient generation system. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: That is achieved as a 16 result of the commitment that you have made under 17 your Power Play program? 18 MR. SCHROEDER: There are a dozen 19 different programs that we have used of which the 20 Power Play is one. But it is all collectively in 21 regard to a commitment to reduce our energy 22 footprint. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Other 24 questions? 25 MR. DYSART: Good morning. Leslie 3129 1 Dysart Northern Manitoban, South Indian Laker, NCN 2 band member. 3 Mr. Schroeder, I am just wondering 4 about some of the information that you provided us 5 this morning. It seems that Inco has plans to 6 reduce their energy use or power use with the 7 PowerSmart program, demand-side management, and 8 you referred to one other one that I didn't quite 9 catch. Does Inco have long term goals of reducing 10 their energy use? 11 MR. SCHROEDER: Our goal is to use as 12 few resources as possible to produce a finished 13 product. That is both from an economic and an 14 environmental standpoint. In days past there was 15 no impetus on industry to get more efficient, but 16 in today's environment there is. So we do have a 17 long-term intent to be as efficient and as 18 environmentally friendly with our use of energy as 19 we can. That means using as few units as possible 20 to produce energy -- or to produce nickel. 21 MR. DYSART: So you don't have any, I 22 guess, limit -- or not limits -- goals, as far as 23 quantitative goals, a set amount, say within ten 24 years you will reduce energy usage by X amount? 25 MR. SCHROEDER: Our Voluntary 3130 1 Challenge Registry obligation or commitment is to 2 try and reduce the energy used per pound of nickel 3 by 1 percent per year. That is a goal. So our 4 goal on the energy side overall as a company is to 5 reduce energy inputs by 1 percent per year for 6 each pound of product produced. 7 MR. DYSART: That is very commendable. 8 So Inco itself would not see the need for new 9 power? 10 MR. SCHROEDER: Inco is currently 11 served by the existing power grid. Whether that 12 would come from new power or not would be Manitoba 13 Hydro's system call. We are a customer of 14 Manitoba Hydro, and how the energy is generated 15 and where is not something that Inco has any 16 control over or impact on. Manitoba Hydro would 17 be the determining -- the entity that would 18 determine we have enough power for this load or 19 for that load or where it would go. It would not 20 be Inco's purview to make that call. 21 MR. DYSART: With some of your 22 long-term goals, Inco itself in Thompson does not 23 see the need for new power, or will not require 24 new power in the future? 25 MR. SCHROEDER: New power in addition 3131 1 to what we use today? That is not something that 2 I would specifically know. Like all resource 3 based companies, you find a new ore body, and all 4 of a sudden everything is different. If you don't 5 find one, then everything stays the same. So I 6 wouldn't have access to our exploration department 7 or to our long-term planning department's 8 definition of where there might be more ore, or 9 when different processing streams would come on 10 line. Our production changes year-to-year are 11 based on the availability of feed, the grade of 12 nickel, and the myriad of different components 13 that would determine long term whether we would 14 increase power or not. But our obligation, when 15 we deal with power, is to confer with Manitoba 16 Hydro and let them know what our short-term needs 17 are, and it is their purview to decide where that 18 power comes from and how it is delivered. 19 MR. DYSART: I just have one comment. 20 If Inco doesn't find new minerals, everything 21 doesn't stay the same. I just refer to past 22 residents of Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions? 24 Seeing none, thank you, Mr. Schroeder, for making 25 your presentation here today. 3132 1 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 2 enter Mr. Schroeder's statement, Inco, Thompson 3 Manitoba to the Clean Environment Commission, 4 regarding Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission 5 Projects application as exhibit OTH-1005. 6 7 (EXHIBIT OTH 1005: Mr. Schroeder's 8 statement, Inco, Thompson, Manitoba to 9 the Clean Environment Commission, 10 regarding Wuskwatim Generation and 11 Transmission Projects application) 12 13 THE CHAIRMAN: I now call upon Angus 14 Dysart. 15 First, I would like you to introduce 16 yourselves, and I will ask Mr. Grewar to swear you 17 in after. 18 MR. DYSART: My name is Angus Dysart, 19 person of Displaced Residents of South Indian 20 Lake, referred to as DRSIL. 21 MR. TRONIAK: Good morning, my name is 22 Eric Troniak. I provide consulting support to 23 Displaced Residents of South Indian Lake, and 24 Mr. Dysart has asked me to come here with him 25 today. 3133 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Grewar. 2 MR. GREWAR: Gentlemen, are you both 3 aware that it is an offence in Manitoba to 4 knowingly mislead this Commission? 5 MR. DYSART: Yes, we do. 6 MR. TRONIAK: Yes. 7 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 8 only the truth in proceedings before this 9 Commission? 10 MR. DYSART: Yes. 11 MR. TRONIAK: Yes. 12 13 ANGUS DYSART AND ERIC TRONIAK: SWORN 14 15 MR. GREWAR: Excuse me, 16 Mr. Chairman -- was there any documentation that 17 you wanted the Commissioners to have access to? 18 MR. TRONIAK: I do have copies, a few 19 copies of Mr. Dysart's speaking notes. 20 Unfortunately, I don't have the 30 copies that the 21 Commission would like, since we are a non-funded 22 participant, but I do have some copies, and some 23 copies of material that are referenced in 24 Mr. Dysart's speech. I could provide those to you 25 right now if you would like. 3134 1 MR. GREWAR: That would be helpful, if 2 I could have them. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. You may 4 proceed. 5 MR. DYSART: Good morning once again. 6 My name is Angus Dysart. I am the President of 7 the Association of Displaced Residents of South 8 Indian Lake often referred to DRSIL. I am pleased 9 to have the opportunity to make the presentations 10 on behalf of DRSIL, South Indian Lake. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bedford. 12 MR. BEDFORD: Before we proceed, 13 Mr. Chairman, you will remember that a week ago 14 Dr. Peter Kulchyski testified from the University 15 of Manitoba, and he suggested that he was going to 16 file a paper some days after he testified. I had 17 understood at the time that you said no, we had 18 oral testimony from Dr. Kulchyski and we wouldn't 19 be accepting any papers from him. One of these 20 documents that I have just been handed appears to 21 be the paper Dr. Kulchyski promised, which you 22 indicated you weren't prepared to accept. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this the paper 24 itself? The presentation? 25 MR. BEDFORD: No, not what Mr. Dysart 3135 1 is about to read, but there were three or four 2 additional papers handed to us, and they include 3 this paper by Dr. Kulchyski. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: We will have a closer 5 look at it. My colleagues, looking at this, say 6 this is not the same document that was referred 7 to. So we will have a look at it. 8 MR. BEDFORD: Thank you. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead. You will 10 have to, Mr. Dysart, you will have to speak quite 11 a bit louder. I am seeing some people over there 12 that are making signals. 13 MR. DYSART: My name is Angus Dysart. 14 I am President of the Association of Displaced 15 Residents of South Indian Lake, often referred to 16 as DRSIL. I am pleased to have the opportunity to 17 make a presentation on behalf of DRSIL at these 18 Clean Environment Commission hearings for 19 Wuskwatim generation and transmission line 20 projects. I am very pleased to be here and talk 21 to you today in Thompson in front of many other 22 people who have been seriously affected by past 23 hydro development by Manitoba Hydro. However, our 24 association is not happy that those hearings are 25 spending only two days in Thompson for these 3136 1 hearings. More time should be spent in Northern 2 Manitoba to allow the people who are affected by 3 hydro development and have suffered at the hands 4 of Manitoba Hydro to be part of the process. Why 5 are not hearings being held in Nelson House, South 6 Indian Lake, so NCN members there can be heard and 7 see what is going on here? This would also have 8 given this Commission the opportunity to see how 9 past promises of prosperity for us from hydro 10 development have been fulfilled and honoured. Why 11 is so little time and respect been given to those 12 who are paying the price for Manitoba Hydro to 13 make hundreds of millions of dollars? 14 For the record, I am demanding an 15 apology from Jerry Primrose calling me, our 16 association, and others who have concerns or do 17 not want Wuskwatim "economic terrorists." I 18 support Carol Kobliski in her comments on March 19 17, 2004, that this apology should be made to the 20 Commission and to all those who question the 21 project. I know that so many people have talked 22 about this comment and I hope that this apology 23 will put this to rest. 24 I will start by saying a few words 25 about myself and how our association came into 3137 1 being, our current struggle with Manitoba Hydro, 2 Manitoba and Canada for fair and just treatment 3 under the Northern Flood Agreement. Then I will 4 discuss why our association decided to be part of 5 this hearing, and finally our position on the 6 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission line 7 projects. 8 Some 30 years ago I was one of the 9 future generations growing up in South Indian 10 Lake. I remember how it was like growing up in 11 South Indian Lake prior to the Churchill River 12 Diversion. This was a clear pristine lake with 13 sandy beaches, even nicer than Lake of the Woods. 14 My father, Murdo Dysart, provided a 15 good self-sufficient living for us being a 16 commercial fisherman and trapper. I was raised 17 right from the land and most of the members of 18 DRSIL were raised the same way. Before the Hydro 19 projects and the flooding of South Indian Lake, 20 there was abundant high quality fish and fur. 21 South Indian lake was known worldwide for its 22 Export A White Fish that was served in some of the 23 finest restaurants in North America. Now the 24 people of South Indian Lake are warned to limit 25 the fish they eat due to mercury. People are 3138 1 getting sick from eating the fish and drinking the 2 water. 3 The furs were also the highest quality 4 and sold around the world. Despite what Jerry 5 Primrose said to you, it was Manitoba Hydro that 6 destroyed trapping around South Indian Lake and 7 not any outside fur lobby. 8 When Manitoba Hydro was planning to 9 build a dam at Missi Falls and South Channel, they 10 made a lot of promises to the community of South 11 Indian Lake. New housing, running water, and 12 sewer hook-up for everyone were promised. Jobs 13 were promised, and a fair and just settlement for 14 the loss of the land, property and opportunities. 15 The future generation of young people was promised 16 a bright and better way of life by Manitoba Hydro. 17 This was one of many promises broken by Manitoba 18 Hydro and the Government of Manitoba. 19 For example, according to Manitoba 20 Hydro's quarterly report of Reserve Resident's 21 Employment under Article 18.5 of the Northern 22 Flood Agreement for the fiscal year ending 23 December 31, 2003, only two people were employed 24 in South Indian Lake. One was full-time utility 25 worker and the other a casual labour. I do not 3139 1 even know if those two people are even from South 2 Indian Lake. In fact, for Nelson House only 23 3 NCN members were employed with all being in low 4 paying and low skilled labour jobs. In 5 comparison, PCN, Cross Lake, who have not signed 6 Northern Flood Agreement Master Implementation 7 buy-out agreement have 243 people employed, 8 including a number in skilled positions. I have 9 copies of this report which I can file with CEC, 10 Clean Environment Commission, today. 11 None of the promises were kept by 12 Manitoba Hydro and the Government of Manitoba. 13 Many of us suffered great social, economic and 14 psychological harm as a result of the project. 15 This when Manitoba Hydro and the Government of 16 Manitoba continued to reap hundreds of millions of 17 dollars from selling hydroelectricity. Many have 18 suffered and continue to suffer while others 19 prosper on our misery. This includes the over 400 20 members of DRSIL who, like me, who were forced to 21 leave South Indian Lake and our traditional way of 22 life to find a future. To provide further 23 information on South Indian Lake and the impact of 24 hydro development I would like to table with you a 25 paper that was presented on February 23, 2004 3140 1 forum on hydro development held at the University 2 of Winnipeg. This paper is by Dr. Steven Hoffman 3 of St. Thomas University of Minnesota, and it is 4 entitled "Engineering Poverty: Colonialism and 5 Hydroelectric Development in Northern Manitoba." 6 My September 11, 2003 letter to the 7 Clean Environment Commission, which has been 8 placed on record for these hearings, gives a brief 9 background of our association. Like me, our 10 members have been displaced and were forced to 11 move from our home at South Indian Lake due to the 12 flooding and ongoing impacts of the Churchill 13 River Diversion, Churchill/Nelson River Hydro Dam 14 projects. The majority of our over 400 members, 15 around 70 percent, live in Northern Manitoba, with 16 the rest in places like Winnipeg, Brandon, outside 17 of Manitoba. Like me, the majority of us are NCN 18 band members and have serious concerns about the 19 Wuskwatim project, the deals between NCN and 20 Manitoba Hydro, and the things being done to try 21 and get NCN members to agree to it. 22 We currently have six members of our 23 executive chosen by the traditional Aboriginal way 24 of members putting their name forwards and having 25 it discussed and endorsed by members at meetings 3141 1 held throughout Manitoba. The current executive 2 was endorsed at meetings held this past summer in 3 Winnipeg, Thompson, Leaf Rapids, South Indian 4 Lake. We try to hold as many meetings as we can 5 and keep our members informed on what is 6 happening, but it is very difficult when no 7 resources are provided to us for this. 8 Since 1993 our members have been in a 9 struggle with Manitoba Hydro, Manitoba and Canada, 10 to receive fair and just treatment for our claims 11 for compensation under the Northern Flood 12 Agreement. Many of us have suffered property, 13 economic, social, and emotional damage by having 14 our homes at South Indian Lake and way of life 15 largely destroyed by the Hydro project. To date 16 none of our Displaced Residents of South Indian 17 Lake claims have been settled. Manitoba Hydro has 18 done everything it can to tie up our claims and 19 deny us adequate resources to present our claims 20 as we are entitled to under the NFA. For the past 21 two years, there has not even been a NFA 22 arbitrator to deal with our claims and our 23 concerns. I have been informed that they have 24 just recently appointed an arbitrator, retired 25 Judge Ruth Krindle, over the objections of the 3142 1 Pimicikamak Cree Nation of Cross Lake. This 2 person has not yet started work and we have no 3 idea when our claims or issues will even be 4 considered. To us the delay in appointing an 5 arbitrator shows the low regard and respect 6 Manitoba Hydro and the Governments of Manitoba and 7 Canada for the Northern Flood Agreement Treaty. 8 This includes people like us who are trying to get 9 fairness and justice for the environmental, 10 social, and economic harm Manitoba Hydro has 11 inflicted on us. We strongly feel that this is 12 just an example of how Manitoba Hydro and the 13 Governments of Manitoba and Canada are trying to 14 avoid dealing with us fairly and justly. 15 From our experiences, the studies, 16 promises, and assurances of Manitoba Hydro cannot 17 be trusted and relied upon. That includes what 18 happened in South Indian Lake and how Manitoba 19 Hydro, Manitoba, and Canada, have dealt with us 20 over our DRSIL claims. 21 I will not discuss our claims against 22 Manitoba Hydro since I do not have our lawyer here 23 with me. The claims we have filed are individual 24 claims for compensation and I cannot talk about 25 specific claims. Also, the reason I am here today 3143 1 is to talk about our position on the Wuskwatim 2 project and these hearings. 3 We first began following those 4 hearings with the September 30, 2003 hearing in 5 Pimicikamak Cree Nation's motion to expand the 6 Wuskwatim Review to include past hydro projects 7 and their total impacts. Although talking with 8 our lawyer and others who have attended and kept 9 track of the hearings in Winnipeg, I still feel 10 that the Clean Environment Commission should have 11 expanded the scope of those hearings. To limit 12 the scope of those hearings was a decision made by 13 the Clean Environment Commission and we feel that 14 it prevents a true and complete review of the 15 impacts of Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission 16 Line projects. We must recognize and understand 17 what has been done and its impacts before we can 18 have confidence in future development. 19 We feel that a thorough review of past 20 and continuing impacts of the Hydro development in 21 Northern Manitoba should have been done even 22 before a new hydro project was proposed. Manitoba 23 Hydro must address those impacts and do much more 24 than what they are doing now. We want Manitoba 25 Hydro and the Government to clean up the mess they 3144 1 have inflicted on South Indian Lake and other 2 places in the north. We have a number of members 3 from there and of course all of us originally come 4 from there. We also have members of our 5 Association that live in South Indian Lake and we 6 want the environmental mess cleaned up on Southern 7 Indian Lake. This should be done before any other 8 dams like Wuskwatim and transmission lines are 9 built. Manitoba Hydro should not be allowed to 10 continue to make hundreds of millions of dollars 11 on the pain and suffering of others who are 12 affected by the continuing impacts of past hydro 13 development. 14 We hope that this hearing will 15 strongly question Hydro on their claim that 16 Wuskwatim will not affect South Indian Lake and 17 other communities. I remember the false promises 18 and assurances that were made to us in South 19 Indian Lake that low level flooding of Southern 20 Indian Lake would produce little damage that would 21 be managed by Manitoba Hydro. Manitoba Hydro 22 should not be allowed to do what they did to South 23 Indian Lake again. 24 In December 2003, our Association sent 25 a letter to the Clean Environment Commission on a 3145 1 summary of understanding between NCN and Manitoba 2 Hydro. The letter raised a number of questions 3 and concerns we have with it and the upcoming 4 Wuskwatim Project Development Agreement and the 5 vote. I understand that it was sent to all 6 members of the Commission and I will not go over 7 it. I just hope that the questions raised there 8 are dealt with during those hearings. The 9 response provided by NCN Chief and Council to Vern 10 Anderson, the Southern Vice-President of our 11 Association after those hearings started should 12 not be considered a satisfactory response to our 13 questions. We are not satisfied with the lateness 14 of the response, one week after these hearings 15 started, the response is received. A number of 16 questions were not answered or it was stated that 17 they would be answered in the Wuskwatim Project 18 Development Agreement. In the next few weeks we 19 will be going over the response in more detail. 20 I notice that the NCN response to 21 Mr. Anderson has been put in the NCN website. We 22 are also requesting that NCN put Mr. Anderson's 23 December 17, 2003 letter to the Clean Environment 24 Commission on its website so that people can read 25 the two together and get a full picture of our 3146 1 concerns. It is misleading to just include the 2 response and not the letter that contained our 3 questions. 4 I would like to table a paper that 5 supports our concerns with the Wuskwatim Agreement 6 in Principle, Summary of Understanding, and the 7 upcoming Project Development Agreement. On 8 March 16, Dr. Kulchyski made a presentation that 9 dealt with the Wuskwatim SOU. Dr. Kulchyski 10 informed the Clean Environment Commission that he 11 was just finishing the paper, that he was basing 12 his comments on the SOU, and he tabled it with the 13 Clean Environment Commission for review. On 14 behalf of Dr. Kulchyski, I am tabling a final 15 draft of his paper to put on the record for the 16 hearings. In the very near future the paper will 17 be published by the Canadian Centre for Policy 18 Alternatives. 19 In conclusion, we recommend the 20 following: 21 1. No vote on the Wuskwatim PDA be undertaken 22 until all Treaty and Aboriginal issues are 23 satisfactorily dealt with. 24 2. All aspects of the Wuskwatim Project 25 Development Agreement, Limited Partnership 3147 1 Agreement between NCN and Manitoba Hydro, and 2 component side agreements be thoroughly explained 3 to all NCN band members so all are clear on what 4 they mean and what they are agreeing to. These 5 must all be included in the referendum vote. All 6 these documents should be translated in Cree and 7 copies made available to all who request them. 8 3. All outstanding compensation issues and claims 9 of NCN members under the Northern Flood Agreement 10 be settled before any vote on the Wuskwatim PDA. 11 4. All financial information on the Wuskwatim 12 deal and partnership between NCN and Manitoba 13 Hydro be given and explained to NCN members. 14 5. Independent third party legal counsel be 15 retained to explain the Project Development 16 Agreement and other agreements identified in the 17 Wuskwatim SOU to NCN members. This legal counsel 18 should not have represented Manitoba Hydro or have 19 been involved in the negotiation of Wuskwatim 20 Agreement in Principle, Wuskwatim SOU, and the 21 Wuskwatim PDA. 22 6. A set time be established for the Wuskwatim 23 PDA referendum which allows sufficient time, at 24 least three months, for all information provided 25 to be properly explained and discussed in the 3148 1 community. The NCN band membership, and not just 2 Chief Primrose and Council or Manitoba Hydro, 3 should also decide and agree when the vote is to 4 be held. This will be important to heal the 5 wounds, divisions, and hard feelings that have 6 been created by the Wuskwatim project. 7 7. Adequate resources must be provided for those 8 who have concerns about Wuskwatim project and the 9 partnership agreement between NCN and Manitoba 10 Hydro. The Government of Manitoba, Manitoba Hydro 11 and/or NCN Chief and Council should provide 12 adequate funds, e.g. from the 4.2 million annual 13 budget provided to the NCN Community Futures 14 Portfolio, and allow alternative relevant 15 information be provided to the people of NCN prior 16 to the referendum vote. All efforts should be 17 made to enable NCN members to make a reasoned and 18 non-pressured decision on Wuskwatim. 19 8. The Clean Environment Commission should not 20 officially conclude these hearings, and should 21 delay the filing of its recommendations to the 22 Government, until after the Wuskwatim PDA 23 referendum vote is held. This will allow them to 24 take into account the vote and how it was 25 conducted and its report to the Minister of 3149 1 Conservation. 2 9. If Indian Act voting regulations are used for 3 the Wuskwatim PDA Referendum, and not traditional 4 ways led by NCN elders, an expert independent 5 third party such as Elections Canada or Elections 6 Manitoba should oversee all aspects of voting to 7 ensure that it is done fairly and honestly. 8 10. Any vote on the Wuskwatim Project Development 9 Agreement must include all NCN members and the 10 people of South Indian Lake and the Displaced 11 Residents of South Indian Lake. The reserve 12 status issue for South Indian Lake should have no 13 bearing on this. All these people were eligible 14 to vote for the Wuskwatim Agreement in Principle 15 and they should be allowed to continue to 16 participate in the process and be allowed to vote 17 on the Wuskwatim PDA and have their vote counted 18 and recognized. Members of the Association for 19 Displaced Residents of South Indian Lake should 20 not be disqualified from voting by any reserve 21 status deals made by the NCN Chief and Council, 22 South Indian Lake, and the Government of Canada. 23 Thank you. That is it. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dysart. 25 Question, Mr. Mayer? 3150 1 MR. MAYER: Mr. Dysart, are you aware 2 that of your ten recommendations, nine of them 3 deal exclusively with compensation and with the 4 deal, or non-deal as the case may be, between NCN 5 and Hydro? Are you aware of that? 6 MR. DYSART: Yes. 7 MR. MAYER: You are aware that that 8 particular agreement is outside of the 9 jurisdiction or the scope of the hearings of the 10 Clean Environment Commission? 11 MR. DYSART: Yes. 12 MR. MAYER: I take it, therefore, you 13 are bringing it to the Commission as a method of 14 making the matter public? 15 MR. DYSART: Yes. 16 MR. MAYER: Sir, can you tell me 17 why -- I think you are aware that prior to the 18 start of these hearings, the Minister made 19 available, I think it was $1 million for 20 participant assistance funding. Why did your 21 organization not make any application for that 22 participant assistance funding, and at the very 23 least we may have had some opportunity to assist 24 you with your recommendation number 7? 25 MR. TRONIAK: Mr. Mayer, maybe I can 3151 1 answer that. We only decided to get involved in 2 the process when PCN brought their motion forward 3 on September 30. At that time the membership, and 4 the executive in particular, hadn't made a 5 decision on whether to be involved or not -- 6 whether they felt there were issues that were 7 evolving that would be particularly interesting to 8 the membership or that it is something that they 9 should have devoted time to. However, seeing the 10 documentation for the PCN motion, it was decided 11 that the issues were very important. They also 12 dealt with all of NCN members, which about 13 85 percent of displaced residents are NCN members, 14 and decided to get involved in the process. By 15 that time, I believe all of the participant 16 funding was already allocated by that time. 17 MR. MAYER: You are right. 18 MR. TRONIAK: So we are not a funded 19 organization, so we have to be very careful, and 20 the executive are very careful to get involved in 21 things where they feel that they can have a direct 22 benefit and impact for the membership. 23 MR. MAYER: Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sargeant. 25 MR. SARGEANT: I would like to direct 3152 1 a question or two to Mr. Troniak. Mr. Troniak, 2 were you at the hearings in Winnipeg last week 3 when Dr. Kulchyski made his presentation? 4 MR. TRONIAK: Yes, I was. 5 MR. SARGEANT: Did you take note, or 6 do you recall the exchange between Mr. Bedford on 7 behalf of Manitoba Hydro and the chair, 8 Mr. Lecuyer, in respect of a paper that 9 Dr. Kulchyski said he was completing? 10 MR. TRONIAK: Yes. 11 MR. SARGEANT: And I believe we 12 concluded at that time that we would not accept 13 that paper because it was coming in after the 14 fact. Do you recall that? 15 MR. TRONIAK: I do recall that 16 discussion was had on the paper, and that the 17 Commission had said at that time that a paper -- 18 that they would not accept Dr. Kulchyski's paper. 19 I did not assume that it would be totally out of 20 bounds for somebody else to table it on 21 Mr. Kulchyski's behalf. 22 MR. SARGEANT: I am not saying whether 23 or not it is out of bounds, we are going to caucus 24 on that and decide that later. But I have a 25 question or two of you. This paper that you have 3153 1 tabled today, is this the same paper that 2 Dr. Kulchyski delivered at the University of 3 Winnipeg, or it says on the front "based on," is 4 this a paper that was completed after his 5 presentations before the CEC last week? 6 MR. TRONIAK: I think you would have 7 to talk to Dr. Kulchyski about that. I certainly 8 wouldn't want to talk on behalf of Dr. Kulchyski 9 on that. I am sure he is very approachable, that 10 if the Commission would contact him by phone or by 11 letter, I am sure he would clarify that. But I 12 certainly don't want to speak on his behalf on 13 that. 14 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Any other questions? 16 Mr. Mayer. 17 MR. MAYER: You are presenting, your 18 Association is presenting this letter to the 19 Commission. You have got to tell us what it is 20 and where you got it from. If you want us to 21 accept a document, you have to tell us what it is 22 and where you got it from. 23 MR. TRONIAK: Which letter? 24 MR. MAYER: The Kulchyski paper. 25 MR. TRONIAK: We got it from Dr. Peter 3154 1 Kulchyski. 2 MR. MAYER: But you can't tell us 3 whether this is an update, as there seems to be 4 some indication it might be -- at least your 5 presentation says this is an update. We have to 6 determine whether this is the same document that 7 Dr. Kulchyski was talking about that he was going 8 to complete, revise, and tender later. 9 MR. TRONIAK: Okay. If you want my 10 opinion, I am assuming that it is, but to get 11 concrete confirmation on that, I would refer you 12 to Dr. Kulchyski for that. 13 MR. MAYER: Thank you, sir. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Other 15 questions? 16 MS. AVERY KINEW: We do have a 17 translator here if you wish to say anything in 18 Cree about your presentation? 19 MR. DYSART: Yes, I would like to have 20 a translator translate this in Cree for us, 21 please. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: You asked whether this, 23 your presentation could be translated into Cree? 24 MR. DYSART: Yes, please? 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, obviously it 3155 1 should have been done beforehand, before the 2 presentation here today, or maybe have arranged 3 for translation to be done here today. I see that 4 Mr -- I am seeking enlightenment on this issue -- 5 Mr. Thomas, are you going to shed some light? 6 MR. THOMAS: Hopefully. I know 7 Mr. Dysart and he speaks Cree very fluently, 8 perhaps even better than I do, and I see no reason 9 why he couldn't translate his own words. 10 MR. TRONIAK: Mr. Chairman, I just 11 talked to Mr. Dysart, and he said if the 12 Commission would like, Mr. Dysart could translate 13 it in Cree, time permitting. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: He will translate it 15 himself and will present us with a translation, a 16 translated version, or he wants to translate it 17 now? 18 MR. TRONIAK: Yes, he would like to 19 translate it now, time permitting. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: That is the problem. 21 The point is we would have to adjourn right now to 22 set that up and that will take additional time. 23 24 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 25 3156 1 THE CHAIRMAN: I wish that you had 2 availed yourself of the opportunity to present 3 maybe a portion of that presentation, as you did a 4 while ago, or asked us to make that possible 5 before you made the presentation. With the 6 limited amount of time that we have, and the other 7 presenters that we have on the list, we would be 8 seriously compromising the available time. If 9 Mr. Dysart wishes to make, take a few minutes to 10 make let's say a summary comment in Cree, maybe 11 five minutes at the most, we will allow that. 12 MR. DYSART: (Speaking in Cree.) 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Were there 14 other questions? 15 MR. ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, my name is 16 Adkins, again, I am representing Manitoba Hydro 17 with respect to some of these matters. 18 First of all, there were some 19 documents, the paper of Mr. Kulchyski and a paper 20 of Steven M. Hoffman that were attached to the 21 material that we received. And I believe that is 22 the same material that was handed over to the 23 Commission. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: The Commission in 25 regards -- the Commission will examine the paper 3157 1 which appears to have Mr. Peter Kulchyski's name 2 on it to make a determination on that. We see no 3 reason not to allow the other documents to be 4 filed as exhibits, but this one, we will hold for 5 the time being. 6 MR. ADKINS: Just with respect to the 7 paper of Steven Hoffman, I am wondering, do either 8 of the people that are here today and have filed 9 this, do either of you have professional 10 qualifications to respond to questions or 11 background in terms of what Mr. Hoffman's paper 12 is? 13 MR. TRONIAK: What do you mean by 14 that? 15 MR. ADKINS: Mr. Hoffman is not here 16 to answer questions in relation to that paper. Do 17 either of you have professional qualifications, or 18 were you part of preparing that paper, are those 19 part of your opinions, expressions, or views? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Proceed to ask your 21 questions, Mr. Adkins. 22 MR. ADKINS: Perhaps you could answer 23 that question? 24 MR. TRONIAK: We do support the paper 25 of Dr. Hoffman. We do feel that a chance to 3158 1 review it, the content, particularly pertaining to 2 South Indian Lake -- we are tabling the paper for 3 general information. We figure it is something 4 that could be of benefit to these hearings. As 5 far as being a person, or as us to be standing 6 here and to defend the paper on behalf of 7 Dr. Hoffman, we certainly aren't in a position to 8 do that. 9 MR. ADKINS: Thank you very much. 10 I just note with respect to that paper 11 that that should be taken into consideration in 12 considering the weight that should be given to 13 that paper. I am certainly not objecting to it 14 being filed, but I think it is an issue that 15 should be taken in consideration in giving weight 16 to it. 17 Mr. Dysart, can you indicate for the 18 record where you reside at the present? 19 MR. DYSART: I am residing in 20 Thompson, Manitoba. 21 MR. ADKINS: When did you leave South 22 Indian Lake? 23 MR. DYSART: I left South Indian Lake 24 in -- well, I didn't completely leave South Indian 25 Lake, but I have been going back and forth a lot 3159 1 of times, several times. Like when I was younger 2 when this project was coming up, I was in -- which 3 brings me back to 1974, it was in the fall of 1974 4 when Manitoba Hydro first finished completion of 5 the project, when the Churchill River Diversion 6 was turned around down to Nelson and Burntwood 7 River. And then that time, like I was trying to 8 get employment with Hydro but I didn't have no 9 qualifications. Like all of the time they say no 10 qualifications. So at that time I was just -- and 11 then I decided, well, since you are taking all of 12 my resources away, I said, I can't just be 13 drowning under water where my natural habitat has 14 been flooded out. So it got me thinking, I 15 started mining, since 1975 I started. 16 MR. ADKINS: In 1975 you started 17 mining, working at Inco? 18 MR. DYSART: Not with Inco, but I 19 started with Sherritt Gordon mines. 20 MR. ADKINS: With Sherritt Gordon 21 mines? 22 MR. DYSART: Yes. 23 MR. ADKINS: You left your residence 24 in South Indian Lake in 1975? 25 MR. DYSART: After I left -- this took 3160 1 effect with the hydro dam being constructed, but I 2 had to make other plans in order to survive. 3 MR. ADKINS: Now, you indicated that 4 your father was a commercial fisherman? 5 MR. DYSART: Yes. 6 MR. ADKINS: And the commercial 7 fishermen did work out an arrangement with 8 Manitoba Hydro and received some compensation. 9 Are you aware of that? 10 MR. DYSART: As far as compensation 11 goes, this like a self, individual claim for 12 compensation. 13 MR. ADKINS: There was an association, 14 I think your dad was one of the members of the 15 association, South Indian Lake Commercial 16 Fishermen's Association. 17 MR. DYSART: Yes. 18 MR. ADKINS: And if my recollection is 19 correct, that association actually used those 20 funds, they built quite a significant lodge up at 21 Big Sand Lake; is that correct? 22 MR. DYSART: I don't know whatever 23 funds were used, I was never informed on how they 24 were distributed, but I certainly didn't see any 25 of that compensation myself. 3161 1 MR. ADKINS: Presumably your dad was 2 involved in that, he was one of the signators to 3 the agreement; is that correct? 4 MR. DYSART: That could be correct, 5 but I never get involved in what my dad's business 6 is. I myself am trying to get the Hydro to be 7 open to me, like give me a fair and just 8 settlement in return for what they have taken from 9 me. 10 MR. ADKINS: Have you ever been up to 11 Big Sand Lake? 12 MR. TRONIAK: Excuse me -- this is, 13 whether Mr. Dysart has been up to Big Sand Lake, I 14 don't see what the relevance to these hearings 15 are. Like they are always objecting that we are 16 introducing things that are not the purview of 17 this hearing. I am just wondering if they could 18 provide some justification for this line of 19 questioning. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: I believe the comment, 21 the question is germane and it relates to comments 22 made by Mr. Dysart in his opening remarks. 23 MR. ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, I would be 24 quite happy not to pursue this line of questioning 25 if, in fact, all of the material that was filed in 3162 1 connection with the issue of claims and the 2 adverse effects is not considered. But if it is 3 going to be part of this, then I think I need to 4 pursue this line of questioning, so that is why I 5 have done it. 6 So you have been up to Big Sand Lake? 7 MR. DYSART: Well, before they built a 8 tourist camp there, I was up there. In fact, I 9 trapped there when I was younger. I was trapping 10 with my uncle, William Dysart. 11 MR. ADKINS: So William is your uncle? 12 MR. DYSART: Yes. 13 MR. ADKINS: And he was the president 14 of the Commercial Fishermen's Association; is that 15 correct? 16 MR. DYSART: Yes. 17 MR. ADKINS: He was a pilot, he 18 flew -- 19 MR. DYSART: At that time, he wasn't a 20 pilot then, he was like a commercial fisherman 21 operator and a registered trapper. 22 MR. ADKINS: He became a pilot later? 23 MR. DYSART: Yes. 24 MR. ADKINS: And used that in the 25 commercial fishing operation? 3163 1 MR. DYSART: I don't know that he did. 2 MR. ADKINS: When you were at Big 3 Sand, what was there, what sort of development did 4 you see? 5 MR. DYSART: I haven't been to Big 6 Sand at all since they developed that tourist 7 camp. 8 MR. ADKINS: Do you have any knowledge 9 of the tourist camp? Have you heard about the 10 tourist camp? Do you know what has been developed 11 there? 12 MR. DYSART: I have a knowledge of 13 what has been developed there. 14 MR. ADKINS: It is pretty nice? 15 MR. DYSART: I would say yes. 16 MR. ADKINS: There is a place for 17 planes to land? 18 MR. DYSART: Yes, there is a strip 19 there. 20 MR. ADKINS: There is a large lodge 21 and there is a whole bunch of other facilities for 22 people to stay overnight or stay for a week and go 23 fishing? 24 MR. DYSART: Yes. 25 MR. ADKINS: It has got a catch and 3164 1 release program there? 2 MR. DYSART: Yes. 3 MR. ADKINS: How many people, 4 residents of South Indian Lake actually are 5 employed up at Big Sand? 6 MR. DYSART: Like -- to the best of my 7 knowledge, like it is only a small portion of what 8 is not employed. 9 MR. ADKINS: Only a small portion of 10 which? 11 MR. DYSART: That are employed at Big 12 Sand. 13 MR. ADKINS: A small portion of the 14 entire community? 15 MR. DYSART: Yes. 16 MR. ADKINS: But there is still a 17 significant number of people employed at Big Sand 18 every year; is that not right? 19 MR. DYSART: That is true. There is a 20 limit to what you can have there, because you only 21 got so much. 22 MR. ADKINS: My understanding is that 23 the funds that the commercial fishermen received 24 from the settlement with Manitoba Hydro were used 25 to build that lodge and facilities, the air strip? 3165 1 MR. DYSART: I am not the one to say, 2 because I was never involved with those kinds of 3 agreements. 4 MR. TRONIAK: It might be more 5 appropriate to talk to CASIL about -- the ones who 6 actually negotiated the agreement and signed it. 7 MR. ADKINS: It wasn't a CASIL 8 Agreement. This is a commercial fishermen's 9 agreement. 10 MR. TRONIAK: Or the people that 11 actually negotiated it with you -- to expect 12 Mr. Dysart to know the ins and outs of all of the 13 agreements, I don't know if it is appropriate. 14 MR. ADKINS: I am trying to 15 determine -- 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Troniak, if you 17 have comments or points of order, please direct 18 them to me as chair. 19 MR. TRONIAK: Sorry, Bob. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Carry on. 21 MR. ADKINS: Now, my understanding is 22 that in fact the commercial fishery did reopen; is 23 that correct? You are aware of that? 24 MR. DYSART: Well, my understanding 25 is, since Manitoba Hydro raised, built a dam at 3166 1 the Churchill River Diversion, it has always been 2 open but the quantity is not there. It has been 3 like graded right down to continental fishing. 4 MR. ADKINS: And some of that, there 5 was a period of time when the grade was off, but 6 the grade had improved at this point in time. Am 7 I correct in that? 8 MR. DYSART: Like, I don't know, but 9 like myself, from what I have seen, like I often 10 go back there, but for what I see, like all of the 11 erosion, it is like -- I would say it is about the 12 size of Winnipeg that has been eroding to South 13 Indian Lake like almost every year. 14 MR. ADKINS: But in terms of the 15 commercial fishery, do you have any knowledge as 16 to what the catch has been in the last five or ten 17 years, or the quality of the fish that have been 18 caught? 19 MR. DYSART: I am not the one to say 20 what the record is, but from my own past 21 experience -- like I commercial fished when they 22 first raised the lake in South Indian Lake, but I 23 use my -- well, my late father-in-law, Loco (ph) 24 was his name, I used his name, I took a couple of 25 weeks off when I was mining and I decided to go 3167 1 and try it out. And I was fishing then, but it 2 was only the first year that they raised water, 3 and this was in the winter of 1975, in January, I 4 commercial fished, and then the quantity was still 5 there. But then after that, after the next, the 6 following summer fishing came, it dropped 7 drastically. When you consider what good quantity 8 fishing is like, and when I grow up, when I used 9 to watch my dad fishing, he would have ten nets 10 out, and that is the most he could handle. And 11 those ten nets, he had to lift them twice a day, 12 early in the morning and early in the afternoon. 13 He had to empty the nets because -- you would see 14 in the morning when you used to go, to go check on 15 the nets, me and my dad -- I was young then -- you 16 could see, you could look at the nets, like 17 sometimes you would have them ten in a gang, that 18 is 100 yards of nets. You have ten in a gang. Of 19 those ten nets, all you would see is the white 20 fish floating, no other fish, just Export A white 21 fish, and all of those ten nets would float. Now 22 today, to look at what Manitoba Hydro has raised 23 the water, in the diversion, and the debris that 24 is all floating to the main lakes, it is very 25 typical for any fisherman to say, well, he is 3168 1 making a good living in fishing, but I doubt it. 2 In return of compensation for what the fishermen 3 are getting, it is almost nil. 4 MR. ADKINS: Just to go back to the 5 question that I asked, are you aware of the actual 6 harvest, the fishing results in the commercial 7 fishery in the last five -- 8 MR. DYSART: I am aware that there has 9 been harvest fishing, but I would say it has 10 dropped drastically to over half. 11 MR. ADKINS: You don't have the actual 12 figures to show? 13 MR. DYSART: No, but in my own past 14 experience, I know that the fishermen are really 15 struggling to get any fish, if there is any fish 16 in that lake at all. 17 MR. ADKINS: Are you aware that, in 18 addition to the settlement that I have already 19 referred to, that Manitoba Hydro worked with the 20 commercial fishermen to relocate the fish plant to 21 fishing outposts from Missi to Sturgeon Narrows? 22 MR. DYSART: I am only explaining what 23 I seen when I grow up in the past. I don't have 24 really no idea what Manitoba Hydro has been 25 dealing and making agreements with commercial 3169 1 fishermen. 2 MR. ADKINS: So you are not aware of 3 that? 4 MR. DYSART: No. 5 MR. ADKINS: Are you aware that there 6 was work done with Manitoba Hydro on an additional 7 settlement even subsequent to that, and further 8 compensation was paid so that there was separate 9 compensation arrangements with the fishermen? Are 10 you aware of it? 11 MR. DYSART: I am aware there has been 12 compensation, and what has been going on in South 13 Indian, but you know, like myself, like I am -- 14 well, I am self dependent myself, but on the other 15 hand, for what was taken away from me is what I am 16 seeking for a fair and just settlement, you know, 17 reliable compensation. 18 MR. ADKINS: And you actually have a 19 lawyer that is representing you and there is a -- 20 MR. DYSART: I have got a lawyer 21 representing me. 22 MR. ADKINS: Good. Now, going back to 23 the South Indian Lake and the comments that you 24 are making with respect to South Indian Lake, are 25 you aware as well that Manitoba Hydro is working 3170 1 with the commercial fishermen over the last few 2 years in terms of reaching other areas to carry 3 out fishing? Are you aware of that? 4 MR. DYSART: I wasn't aware of it, 5 but -- like another thing too, I don't know why 6 Manitoba Hydro is just concerned about commercial 7 fishermen, you know, there is a lot of people that 8 came from South Indian that, on account of this 9 happening, going their own ways. How come 10 Manitoba Hydro is not involved with those people? 11 MR. ADKINS: Let's talk about -- we 12 don't want to talk about commercial fishing all 13 the time, let's turn to trapping. You are aware 14 there was a trappers settlement that was also 15 reached with Manitoba Hydro? 16 MR. DYSART: I suppose, but how come 17 Hydro was mainly concerned about settling with 18 commercial fishermen and trappers? 19 MR. ADKINS: That was two of the main 20 industries. 21 MR. DYSART: In view of what Manitoba 22 Hydro has done to all of those people that lived 23 in the community. 24 MR. ADKINS: The two main industries 25 in the community of South Indian Lake were 3171 1 trapping and fishing, I think your own evidence 2 was that. 3 MR. DYSART: Yes. 4 MR. ADKINS: Can you indicate, did you 5 ever do any economic analysis, or anyone do an 6 economic analysis for you on behalf of you in 7 connection with the effects of the anti-fur lobby 8 on trapping? 9 MR. DYSART: As far as the economical, 10 when you look at it, like it doesn't take a genius 11 to figure it out. But, like when Manitoba Hydro 12 holds the water back to its peak, and you see all 13 of these, like the wildlife, like beaver and 14 muskrats, for example, wherever the water reached 15 its peak, that is where they intend to make their 16 beaver house. And the muskrats, they have holes 17 along the rivers. And that is the way when the 18 water is stable. At a certain time when the Hydro 19 releases water, and all of these, like the beaver 20 and the muskrats, the water drops and the ice 21 falls, and the muskrats and beaver freeze along 22 the river, and that is a pretty environmental 23 concern, because this continues on every year. 24 MR. ADKINS: Let me ask again the 25 question that I asked, and maybe you can direct 3172 1 your mind to that and see if you can answer it. I 2 was asking you in connection with the trapping 3 industry. You had commented on the income of 4 people in South Indian Lake, and I was asking 5 whether or not you had any analysis done as to the 6 effects of the anti-fur lobby on the trapping 7 industry in South Indian Lake? 8 MR. TRONIAK: Maybe I could answer 9 that -- no. 10 MR. ADKINS: You are aware of the 11 anti-fur lobby and you are aware that fur prices, 12 in effect, did suffer a significant drop as a 13 consequence of the anti-fur lobby; is that common 14 ground? 15 MR. DYSART: Yes. 16 MR. ADKINS: You talked about the 17 community itself, and my understanding is, from 18 affidavit material and copies of agreements and 19 other things, that both the Province of Manitoba 20 and Manitoba Hydro actually did an awful lot of 21 work in the community itself at South Indian Lake. 22 Are you aware of that? 23 MR. DYSART: Yes, I am aware of it. 24 MR. ADKINS: They put an airport in 25 place there; correct? 3173 1 MR. DYSART: That airport has been 2 there for several years. 3 MR. ADKINS: Correct, but that was put 4 in there by the Province I think actually? 5 MR. DYSART: I think it was put by 6 Northern Affairs. 7 MR. ADKINS: As part of the Provincial 8 initiative? 9 MR. TRONIAK: If I just may add, South 10 Indian Lake up to I believe 1999 was an 11 unincorporated community under Northern Affairs, 12 and since then an incorporated community. So of 13 course much of that infrastructure is being put 14 into South Indian Lake and to other similar 15 Northern Affairs communities. So it is part of 16 the mandate and the responsibility under normal 17 Government programming, much of it. 18 MR. ADKINS: There was cost sharing 19 done by Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro with respect 20 to a number of infrastructure and other services 21 put into that community, like roads and houses and 22 a community club, and a town hall and other things 23 of that nature, is that correct -- stores? 24 MR. DYSART: There has been limited 25 housing from Manitoba Hydro. 3174 1 MR. ADKINS: But there were things 2 that Manitoba Hydro paid for; is that correct? 3 MR. DYSART: Like, as far as those 4 housing, I am concerned, like they are not even 5 built for Northern Manitoba. Like, it is just 6 like they were built like for the southern part of 7 Manitoba or somewhere in the southern part where 8 it is warm, where the climate is a lot different. 9 MR. ADKINS: You are aware that there 10 was claims 46 and 47 I think filed with the 11 Northern Flood Agreement arbitrator on behalf of 12 the residents of the community of South Indian 13 Lake. 14 MR. DYSART: I don't know what -- as 15 an individual myself, and like for what is 16 relating to as far as South Indian Lake, what 17 claims went through. To the best of my knowledge, 18 like, South Indian Lake is a self community 19 itself. I don't get involved with those claims, 20 what is going through. 21 MR. ADKINS: You indicated some of 22 your members are again residents of South Indian 23 lake; is that correct? 24 MR. DYSART: Yes. 25 MR. ADKINS: So they have moved back 3175 1 there, notwithstanding the problems in the 2 community that you have referred to? 3 MR. DYSART: Not all of us moved out, 4 but some of us did. 5 MR. ADKINS: The ones who haven't 6 moved out, are they part of, have they actually 7 been involved in claims 46 and 47? 8 MR. DYSART: I don't think so, because 9 otherwise I wouldn't have them sign that DRSIL. 10 MR. TRONIAK: Can we maybe defer, like 11 if Mr. Adkins would want further information, we 12 can talk to the legal counsel on whether they were 13 part of claims 46 and 47, which I believe were for 14 housing and fishing compensation. But as far as 15 we know, you know, I will put that on notice, put 16 the question on notice, take it on notice, if he 17 wants to pursue this line of questioning. 18 MR. ADKINS: My only purpose of doing 19 this is just to try and understand. We have a 20 litany of issues, my impression had been they had 21 not been addressed, and I would like to at least 22 have the record reflect that they may not be fully 23 and completely addressed to everyone's 24 satisfaction, but that there has been a fair 25 amount of effort by Manitoba Hydro and the 3176 1 Province of Manitoba, different roles under the 2 Northern Flood Agreement, to try to address some 3 of those issues. I would like to just try to 4 ensure that that part of the record is clear. 5 MR. TRONIAK: I would encourage you 6 maybe to ask the questions to actually maybe the 7 community association of South Indian Lake, and to 8 the community, to see how they would assess 9 whether Manitoba Hydro has done the job that it 10 should have been doing, instead of having 11 Mr. Dysart give an opinion on that, who doesn't 12 live in South Indian Lake and the conditions right 13 now. 14 MR. ADKINS: I am just asking the 15 questions of this witness, because he did get up 16 and speak about South Indian Lake and the 17 situation in that community, and the problems that 18 were there. I think it is fair to ask him some of 19 these questions and find out what he knows. 20 You are aware there was a settlement 21 with the community association of South Indian 22 Lake. It was a $18 million settlement with 23 Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro? 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, sir? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I stand with 3177 1 your discretion. I have listened to Mr. Dysart's 2 presentation and he did not mention any of these 3 claims. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: I listened as well, but 5 he did mention the fact that they were not 6 compensated, and I think the questions are 7 appropriate. We will let them go on. There is no 8 point of order, please. 9 MR. ADKINS: Just to clarify -- 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adkins, I also wish 11 to advise you that you are asking questions, and I 12 think if you ask your questions and you get an 13 answer, then the question has been answered. 14 MR. ADKINS: I appreciate that, 15 Mr. Chairman. I will be short. I recognize there 16 is only so much that this witness is aware of. 17 You are aware that there was a 18 $18 million settlement? 19 MR. DYSART: I am aware that the 20 community of South Indian Lake took a settlement 21 of $18 million, I am aware of that. But that is 22 just a small portion for what the community 23 itself, I guess -- and this reflects to the 24 question when I was growing up. Like, South 25 Indian, when they start negotiating, I thought, 3178 1 like my dad used to have quite a few pamphlets, 2 but I never kept them, but I only heard this when 3 I was young. Like to start the negotiating, it 4 said there was an estimate of $80 million, and it 5 kind of makes me wonder sometimes, when I hear 6 they made a settlement of 18 million. And to go 7 back -- and this for our needs, like myself, you 8 know, like when they took that 18 million for the 9 settlement of the community of South Indian Lake, 10 and then when they did get it, they never included 11 everybody, but that was just the community made 12 that settlement of 18 million. It is not I 13 myself, after forming this DRSIL, I never accepted 14 no claims or no settlement, yet. 15 MR. ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, I think 16 most of the information in connection with the 17 CASIL agreement has been filed, so I will conclude 18 my questions at this point. Thank you very much. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Ms. Kathi 20 Avery Kinew. 21 MS. AVERY KINEW: Mr. Dysart, we had 22 our consultant look up your letter of December 17, 23 and we just looked it over, and the reply of the 24 Clean Environment Commission from January 8th. 25 And the issue was late filing of your questions 3179 1 for the dates that were set aside so the 2 Commission could go forward. And what the reply 3 was, was that it was too late to put in more 4 questions. But this is important, it would be the 5 Clean Environment's expectation in this regard 6 that Hydro/NCN will review the questions that you 7 presented by DRSIL on December 17, 2003, and 8 prepare accordingly for possible cross-examination 9 during a hearing. And that has happened in the 10 last couple of weeks, and a lot of the information 11 that you ask for in your December 17 letter is on 12 the record. And we are trying to get all of the 13 information out so that it is public and people 14 know. So I hope that is helpful. 15 One thing that -- one of the points 16 that you did make that there isn't a lot of 17 information of what the Federal and Provincial 18 Government are doing about Treaty and Aboriginal 19 rights being satisfactorily dealt with. But every 20 time the question has come up to Manitoba Hydro or 21 NCN, we have got an answer from them. So I hope 22 that helps you. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Matthew 24 Lemieux. 25 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: The document 3180 1 that Mr. Dysart referred to I don't believe was on 2 the record. We had not tendered it. We had 3 provided it to Mr. Dysart -- well, actually to 4 Vern Anderson and to Mr. Dysart's legal counsel. 5 He is correct, Mr. Dysart is correct that it is 6 posted to the NCN website. And if Commission 7 counsel, or if the Commission would like a copy, 8 we could provide it, I suppose, to the Commission. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 10 Would you state your name, sir. 11 MR. MOORE: My name is Frank Moore 12 from Nelson House reserve. (SPEAKING CREE.) 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this a question that 14 you asked now of Mr. Dysart? You asked a 15 question? 16 MR. DYSART: Most of these questions 17 he is directing to Elvis Thomas. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have a question, 19 sir, to ask of these gentlemen? 20 MR. MOORE: (SPEAKING CREE) 21 MR. DYSART: Most of these questions 22 are relating to Elvis Thomas. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, sir, when 24 the panel from Hydro and NCN is sitting there, 25 hopefully later on today, you will get an 3181 1 opportunity to ask questions of Mr. Thomas at that 2 time. Okay. If we get an opportunity to have the 3 panel over there today, then you can come up and 4 ask them questions. 5 MR. MOORE: Okay. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: We will take at this 7 point -- we thank you for your presentation. 8 Mr. Grewar will file for exhibit 9 certain documents. Mr. Grewar, we will not at 10 this time file the document from Mr. Kulchyski. 11 We shall, as a Commission, review whether this 12 document can or should be filed. 13 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 14 If I could just give some numbers then to the 15 exhibits that you are accepting, the first would 16 be Association for the Displaced Residents of 17 South Indian Lake, Clean Environment Commission 18 hearings, the presentation of Angus Dysart, 19 president, as DRSIL-1003. That is the actual 20 presentation. 21 (EXHIBIT DRSIL-1003: Presentation of 22 Angus Dysart) 23 24 MR. GREWAR: The next would be 25 correspondence from Ken Agar, Aboriginal and 3182 1 Northern Affairs, dated February 19, 2004, to 2 Nelson House Chief and Council and others. And it 3 is regarding Manitoba Hydro's quarterly report of 4 reserve residents' employment from specified 5 dates, and that would be exhibit DRSIL-1004. 6 7 (EXHIBIT DRSIL-1004: Correspondence from Ken 8 Agar, Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, 9 February 19, 2004, re Manitoba Hydro's quarterly 10 report of reserve residents' employment from 11 specified dates) 12 13 MR. GREWAR: The attachment to Mr. 14 Dysart's presentation is a document entitled 15 "Engineering Poverty: Colonialism and 16 Hydroelectric Development in Northern Manitoba" by 17 Steven Hoffman. It will be DRSIL-1005. 18 19 (EXHIBIT DRSIL-1005: Engineering 20 Poverty: Colonialism and Hydroelectric 21 Development in Northern Manitoba) 22 23 MR. GREWAR: The other exhibit that 24 you agreed to accept, Mr. Chairman, from Manitoba 25 Hydro as the filing entity, would be MH/NCN-1025, 3183 1 and it is correspondence from Mr. W.E. Thomas, 2 Councillor, Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, to Vern 3 Anderson, Vice-President, Association for the 4 Displaced Residents of South Indian Lake, dated 5 March 9, 2004, regarding the Wuskwatim generation 6 and transmission project. 7 8 (EXHIBIT MH/NC1025: Correspondence 9 from Mr. W.E. Thomas to Vern Anderson, 10 March 9, 2004, re Wuskwatim Generation 11 and Transmission Project) 12 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Grewar. 14 We will now take a break. We will reconvene just 15 prior to ten minutes to, at about 12 minutes to. 16 17 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 10:40 AND 18 RECONVENED AT 10:50 A.M.) 19 20 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, would you introduce 22 yourself and then Mr. Grewar will swear you in. 23 MR. KRENTZ: Hello, I'm Bruce Krentz. 24 I'm the General Manager with the NorMan Regional 25 Development Corporation. 3184 1 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Krentz, are you aware 2 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 3 mislead this Commission? 4 MR. KRENTZ: Yes. 5 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 6 only the truth in proceedings before this Commission? 7 MR. KRENTZ: I do. 8 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 9 10 (BRUCE KRENTZ: SWORN) 11 12 MR. KRENTZ: Good morning, everyone. 13 Like I said, I'm Bruce Krentz. I'm the General 14 Manager for the NorMan Regional Development 15 Corporation and it's my pleasure to be here today to 16 lend support for the proposed development of the 17 Wuskwatim Generating Station and related transmission 18 facilities. 19 My presentation today will contain information 20 on who our organization are, what we feel the 21 benefits to the region will be, why we feel this is a 22 positive project and finally some of our concerns. 23 I'm here on behalf of the NorMan Regional 24 Development Corporation at the request of our Board 25 of Directors who passed a resolution at our 3185 1 semi-annual meeting in September of 2003 in Thompson 2 that reads, Upon motion made by Mayor Dulewich, 3 seconded by Councillor Kolada, it was resolved and 4 carried that; whereas NorMan Regional Development 5 Corporation's mission is to promote economic 6 development within the NorMan region; and whereas the 7 proposed Wuskwatim Generating Station is viewed by 8 NorMan RDC as having a positive impact on Northern 9 Manitoba and Manitoba as a whole. 10 Therefore, be it resolved that NorMan RDC go 11 on record as supporting the development of the 12 Wuskwatim Generating Station and that the General 13 Manager, that's me, draft a presentation to be 14 delivered at the Clean Environment Commission 15 hearings concerning this project in March of 2004. 16 That's great but exactly who are we and what 17 is our mandate? 18 The NorMan Regional Development Corporation is 19 a community and provincially funded regional based 20 corporation who serve people and communities north of 21 the 53rd parallel here in Manitoba. Our mission, as 22 per our mission statement, is to promote and 23 encourage economic development north of the 53rd 24 parallel in Manitoba and to assist and cooperate with 25 municipal, provincial and federal governments as well 3186 1 as with other organizations in planning and creating 2 economic development in our region. 3 Because the project will bring dollars and 4 recourses to the region, it relates closely to our 5 mission. So the project and the process are of 6 interest to us. 7 We are an organization who are partially 8 funded by member communities and businesses. The 9 remainder of our funding comes through the provincial 10 government. 11 We have 10 member communities north of the 12 53rd parallel including Thompson, Leaf Rapids, Lynn 13 Lake, Gillam, Churchill, Flin Flon, The Pas, Snow 14 Lake, The RM of Kelsey and Grand Rapids. Each of 15 those communities have two representatives on our 16 Board of Directors. We have corporate members as 17 well who include INCO, HBM&S, Tolko Industries, 18 Manitoba Hydro, Stittco, Skyward Aviation, Acres Ltd. 19 and Calm Air. Each of the corporate members have 20 representatives who attend our board meetings as 21 well. 22 And finally we have representation from a 23 number of government departments including 24 Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives, Culture 25 Heritage and Tourism, Keewatin Community College, 3187 1 Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, the Communities 2 Economic Development Fund and the Northern Regional 3 Cabinet Office as well as Conservation. 4 As you can see, we are proud to represent a 5 variety of sectors and interests from across the 6 north with a focus on economic development and 7 projects that strengthen the future of the north. 8 We feel this is one of those projects and feel 9 it will benefit the north in a number of ways. 10 The capital development will be a definite 11 benefit to the north. We feel that that capital 12 development will not only benefit the Thompson and 13 NCN areas but will benefit a larger part of the 14 region as the supplies will travel through many 15 communities in the north. Also business and service 16 providers through the region will be called on to 17 assist in the development that will happen. 18 Obviously, the greatest benefit will come to 19 the communities closest to the project. But as a 20 region, the members of the NorMan Regional 21 Development Corporation are impressed with the 22 opportunities for us as a whole. 23 The training and education that will happen 24 around the project is another benefit that we are 25 impressed with. Again, it is both the obvious and 3188 1 the spin-off benefits we see as an advantage. The 2 training that will take place to ready people for 3 construction and the start-up of the generating 4 station and the related facilities is great for the 5 workforce. The positive spin-off we see is better 6 trained work force in the north. Even if the skills 7 are not directly related to some of our other large 8 industries such as mining or forestry, we still end 9 up with a larger workforce of people who were in the 10 industrial workforce and are now employable. 11 Construction is an obvious benefit that I will 12 not spend too much time on but will say that to an 13 organization interested in economic development, a 14 project budgeted at $900 million looks to us like a 15 pretty good boost for the economy in our region. The 16 money spent not only on the actual facilities but the 17 money spent in the region by the people doing the 18 construction and people related to the project will 19 be a positive for many of the communities and the 20 people providing service on the routes in and out of 21 as well as around the project. 22 There will be some ongoing employment once the 23 project is complete. While the numbers required to 24 operate and maintain the facilities are not huge, it 25 is a good thing for the region to have those 3189 1 permanent positions. 2 As the project stands right now, if NCN do 3 invest and own part of the generating station, the 4 ongoing benefits to the community will be 5 significant. Again, the benefit will be greatest to 6 the citizens of NCN but more money in the region is a 7 benefit to us all. 8 There are a number of things we would call 9 positive impacts or aspects of the project and the 10 process in place to complete the project that we feel 11 are positives. The first of those being that if 12 completed, the generating station and related 13 facilities will provide a more stable power supply 14 for residents and businesses in the north and across 15 Manitoba. Our large industries such as mining and 16 forestry rely very heavily on hydroelectricity and a 17 more stable supply and increased potential for the 18 future is a strong support. 19 In the recent past, we have seen some mine 20 closures in places like Leaf Rapids and Lynn Lake and 21 have some uncertainty in forestry. We see the 22 establishment of an ongoing stable development as a 23 positive step for the future of the north. While 24 Hydro is already established in the north, we are 25 encouraged by an industry who are growing while 3190 1 others shrink. We welcome any development which can 2 fill the gaps, or better yet, increase the economy in 3 the north and we see this as a step toward that. 4 From a business perspective, we feel it makes 5 sense to bring the generating station on line early 6 and to use sales of that power to pay down the debt 7 on the project before Manitoba has a need to use that 8 power itself. 9 We feel that Hydro and NCN are undertaking a 10 responsible process by involving local input and 11 doing comprehensive impact studies. We believe that 12 this not only ensures the success of the project but 13 sets a standard for future resource development in 14 the north. The process we are involved in here sets 15 a standard, or at the very least, sets us on a path 16 for reviewing all hydro and other resource 17 development projects in the future. We feel that is 18 a very positive by-product of this project. 19 As an organization, we are satisfied with the 20 plans to continue to manage environmental impacts 21 such as the areas that will be flooded and wildlife 22 resource access. We applaud the move to a low head 23 dam to minimize flooding and the way that decision 24 was made in consultation with local residents. 25 While we are in favour of the project as a 3191 1 whole, we do have some concerns or areas we feel must 2 be attended to and stay attended to in order to 3 protect the north and in order for the project to be 4 considered a success. 5 We feel the construction phase of the project 6 will put pressure on some of the service industries 7 in the north especially those in NCN and in Thompson 8 but also in all areas that the supplies and people 9 will travel. There will be social problems in 10 relation to more money and more people moving around 11 in the region but we feel that in communities are 12 aware ahead of time, these issues can be managed. 13 We are also concerned about environmental 14 impacts as a whole but are also satisfied that they 15 are being managed through the Environmental Impact 16 Study. We would be naive in thinking there not be an 17 impact but we do feel the process is sound. The 18 impacts are being assessed and managed and that the 19 benefits to the region are worthwhile. 20 Wildlife resources could see pressure from 21 increased accessibility. This is another area that 22 can be managed but our concern is just that it's 23 managed both as the area is opened to access and in 24 the future when the project is no longer in the 25 public's eye. 3192 1 A large concern also is the displacement of 2 local people who use the area for hunting and 3 trapping. There is always some cost to new projects 4 and new directions and we are comfortable with that 5 but we want to be sure the concerns, lifestyles and 6 economies of the people who use the area of the 7 proposed generating station and related transmission 8 facilities are addressed. 9 In summary, I would say that being an 10 organization interested in economic development, we 11 feel compelled to support a project that will see an 12 estimated $900 million flow to our region. We do not 13 blindly support the project but we do feel 14 comfortable with the process that the major players 15 have embarked upon. 16 We like the fact that the project includes 17 participation from local people and specifically NCN. 18 We feel there's a great opportunity for benefit in 19 terms of financial gains and an increase in human 20 resources. Those benefits and others will be felt in 21 Thompson and throughout the region and as a regional 22 organization, we look forward to that. Those 23 financial gains to the region will be positive but we 24 are also interested in the training and education 25 that will support industry as a whole in the north. 3193 1 We only support the project if the 2 Environmental Impact Study continues on the path it 3 has begun and if the impacts on the environment are 4 managed not only before and during construction but 5 through the life of the generating station and the 6 transmission lines and facilities. 7 We commend the Government of Manitoba for 8 dedicating resource to the process and for taking 9 steps to ensure that the project is carried forward 10 in this responsible manner. 11 I spoke on who we are as an organization, what 12 we felt the benefits to the region will be, why we 13 feel this is a positive project and finally some of 14 our concerns. On behalf of the NorMan Regional 15 Development Corporation, its member communities, 16 corporations and government partners, I'd like to 17 thank you for your time and the opportunity for us to 18 show our support for the Wuskwatim Generating Station 19 and related transmission facilities. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Any questions? 21 MR. DYSART: Just a couple of questions 22 in regards to our organization. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Your name, please. 24 MR. DYSART: Leslie Dysart, Northern 25 Manitoban, South Indian Laker, NCN Band member. 3194 1 Noticeably absent as your member communities are 2 First Nations communities. Can you give any reason 3 for that? 4 MR. KRENTZ: You know, it's something 5 that we're trying to address as an organization and 6 we'd really like to have some more communities 7 involved so it's something we're working on. I don't 8 know if that's a good answer for you but that's the 9 truth. 10 MR. DYSART: How long has NorMan 11 Regional -- 12 MR. KRENTZ: We've been operating for 13 close to 30 years. 14 MR. DYSART: Thirty years. So you're a 15 relatively old corporation. Has invitations been 16 extended to First Nations communities to join your 17 organization? 18 MR. KRENTZ: They have in the past, 19 yes. And we've been working with different people to 20 try to get our word out I guess in the last couple of 21 years or trying to do some membership recruiting 22 through more of the communities in Northern Manitoba. 23 MR. DYSART: Like some of the 24 recommendations made in regards to the environment 25 but I'm just wondering how much consultation or 3195 1 discussions your organization has had with First 2 Nation communities? 3 MR. KRENTZ: Not too much in putting 4 together the presentation. 5 MR. DYSART: Okay. Thank you. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mayer. 7 MR. MAYER: Mr. Krentz, it seems that 8 during the nine years I was on Thompson City Council 9 back in the late seventies and early eighties, that 10 at that time, there were in fact one or two 11 Aboriginal communities who were members of NorMan 12 RDC; am I not correct in that? 13 MR. KRENTZ: In the past, we've had 14 some communities sort of come in and out of the 15 organization like you say. 16 MR. MAYER: I think if I recall 17 correctly one of the major complaints was the amount 18 of the fees. 19 MR. KRENTZ: And that's what we're 20 struggling with right now. You're exactly right. We 21 charge -- our membership is based on a per capita 22 charge and so sometimes the smaller communities have 23 trouble meeting that or don't feel like it's worth it 24 for them to do. 25 MR. MAYER: Thank you. 3196 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir. 2 MR. MILLER: Yeah. My name is Nelson 3 Miller from Pimicikamak. I've got a couple of 4 questions I'd like to ask you. There's a map on the 5 wall here. It shows two of the major river systems, 6 the Churchill, the Nelson and the Burntwood 7 connecting the two. There's a third that's not shown 8 on there and this is the Grassy River System on which 9 Paint Lake is on. The Grassy River System drains out 10 onto the Nelson and this is an affected water body. 11 What is -- the question is what is RDC and its 12 corporate members doing to address what's happening 13 at Paint Lake? 14 MR. KRENTZ: I think our support for 15 the project and our interest in the project is an 16 economic one. Like I said, we're interested in 17 encouraging economic development and we're prepared 18 to leave some of the environmental concerns to some 19 people who have spent more time and have more 20 knowledge in that area. Does that answer your 21 question? 22 MR. MILLER: No. 23 MR. KRENTZ: Like I said, I think we've 24 sort of put faith in the process that the Clean 25 Environment Commission are putting together that 3197 1 those concerns will be addressed. 2 MR. MILLER: Now you mentioned positive 3 impacts. Is that a positive impact, what's happening 4 at Paint Lake? 5 MR. KRENTZ: That it will be affected 6 through this development? Is that what you're 7 saying? 8 MR. MILLER: It's a very simple 9 question. 10 MR. KRENTZ: Okay. 11 MR. MILLER: You said positive impacts. 12 You are saying there's some positive impacts. I'm 13 asking you, is what's happening at Paint Lake a 14 positive impact? 15 MR. SARGEANT: What is happening at 16 Paint Lake for those of us who aren't from the north? 17 MR. MILLER: There's -- this summer, 18 there was a drought and there was a lot of things 19 happening there with respect to damaged outboards and 20 cottage people having hard times out there. There 21 was even talk of building a dam over there to bring 22 the water levels up in Paint Lake. 23 MR. SARGEANT: How does that relate to 24 the hydro project to Wuskwatim or to any of the 25 previous hydro projects? 3198 1 MR. MILLER: The way we see it, this 2 here project is like one big motor, okay. Right now, 3 it's a five cylinder motor. You're going to modify 4 this motor or add another cylinder on there, it's 5 still one motor. 6 And what I'm talking about here, the river 7 systems, they are all tied together, you know. And 8 when something is happening at Wuskwatim, something 9 else is happening somewhere else. It all affects -- 10 they are all tied together. 11 MR. SARGEANT: But the drought is 12 affecting us throughout Manitoba. I mean I grew up 13 at Gimli. My mother lives there. The water is way 14 out there as well. It's a problem there, too. I am 15 not quite sure how we can address that here. 16 MR. MILLER: Another question then. 17 What is RDC and its corporate members doing to 18 address the direct and indirect effects of what's 19 happening here at the river here, at the bridge here? 20 There was certain tragedies that happened where a 21 loss of life occurred. 22 MR. KRENTZ: I think we've -- we're 23 saying we're putting our support in the process here 24 to address concerns like that through the Provincial 25 Government and Manitoba Hydro and the process that's 3199 1 going on here. 2 MR. MILLER: Is that a positive impact 3 where loss of life occurs? 4 MR. KRENTZ: No. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, is this loss of 6 life due to the flow of the water or level of the 7 water? 8 MR. MILLER: An inquiry was done, 9 Commissioners. You would find that the project is a 10 direct or indirect effect of what had happened. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't have the details 12 so therefore I don't understand. 13 MR. MILLER: That's okay. That's fine. 14 Thank you very much. 15 MR. KRENTZ: Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Other 17 questions? Mr. Mayer. 18 MR. MAYER: Mr. Krentz, how long have 19 you been a resident at Thompson? 20 MR. KRENTZ: I've been a resident of 21 Thompson for 28 years. 22 MR. MAYER: Then you would have been 23 here -- well, do you remember the Burntwood River 24 before the diversion? 25 MR. KRENTZ: I don't but I was here 3200 1 when it was happening, yeah. 2 MR. MAYER: Do you recall when the City 3 of Thompson used to lose one or two lives a year when 4 people slipped off the rock outcropping below the 5 Bailey Bridge on the south side of the river? 6 MR. KRENTZ: I will say no but I know 7 what you're talking about. 8 MR. MAYER: Since the -- 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mayer, the question 10 is not related to the presentation. It's out of 11 order. Other questions? Thank you, Mr. Krentz. 12 MR. KRENTZ: Thank you. 13 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 14 add Mr. Krentz's presentation to the exhibit list at 15 OTH 1006, NorMan Regional Development Corporation 16 Wuskwatim presentation to the Clean Environment 17 Commission. Bruce Krentz, NorMan Regional 18 Development Corporation, OTH 1006. 19 20 (EXHIBIT OTH 1006: NorMan Regional 21 Development Corporation Wuskwatim presentation 22 to the Clean Environment Commission, Bruce 23 Krentz) 24 25 THE CHAIRMAN: I call upon Gilbert 3201 1 Pronteau. Is Mr. Gilbert Pronteau here? I will call 2 some of the members that are due to present in the 3 afternoon. 4 MR. GREWAR: Well, actually Mr. Spence, 5 Rodney Spence is actually scheduled for next and he 6 is here. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Rodney Spence. Sir, 8 would you introduce yourself and then Mr. Grewar will 9 swear you in. 10 MR. SPENCE: My name is Rodney Spence, 11 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. 12 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Spence, are you aware 13 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 14 mislead this Commission? 15 MR. SPENCE: Yes. 16 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 17 only the truth in proceedings before this Commission? 18 MR. SPENCE: Yes. 19 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 20 21 (RODNEY SPENCE: SWORN) 22 23 MR. SPENCE: Mr. Chairman, members of 24 25 the Clean Environmental Commission, my name is Rodney 3202 1 Spence. I am a member of the Nisichawayasihk Cree 2 Nation and I currently reside in Winnipeg. However, 3 I have lived most of my life as a resident of Nelson 4 House with the exception of the past 10 years in 5 Winnipeg. 6 For many years, as a former Chief, I was 7 deeply involved in activities concerning the 8 negotiation and implementation of the Northern Flood 9 Agreement. Over the past three weeks I have been at 10 most of the sessions of these Clean Environment 11 Commission hearings on the Wuskwatim project and I 12 have listened and observed carefully. 13 The Environmental Impact Statement on 14 Wuskwatim that is being examined by the Clean 15 Environment Commission is, in my understanding, an 16 examination of the potential new environmental 17 impacts of the Wuskwatim project upon the land, lives 18 and livelihood of the members of the Nisichawayasihk 19 Cree Nation and possibly other affected communities. 20 As you have heard at these meetings, the 21 people of the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation are 22 understandably sceptical and hesitant about a new 23 Hydro project because of past changes caused by the 24 development of the Churchill River Diversion in the 25 late 1960s and the early 1970s. 3203 1 This scepticism is having a direct impact on 2 the people in both home communities of the 3 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation in Nelson House and South 4 Indian Lake. People in these communities view the 5 Wuskwatim development in different and sometimes 6 opposite ways. As a result, the elected 7 membership -- the elected leadership, excuse me, of 8 the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation is being criticized 9 from within the community and as well from the 10 outside for their efforts to use the development of 11 Wuskwatim as a positive resource for the present and 12 future of the First Nation. 13 This has created some tension and concern 14 among our members. But I believe, for the most part, 15 this is representative of a heartfelt concern to 16 understand the project's efforts to ensure that if it 17 does go forward, that it will be done correctly. 18 They want the right thing for not just themselves but 19 for their families, their children and our people. 20 Some presenters at these hearings have 21 expressed what, on the surface, seems like concern 22 for the traditional livelihood of the Nisichawayasihk 23 Cree Nation. I heard a suggestion that our Cree way 24 of life could still be the same today as it was in 25 the past with its main sources of livelihood being 3204 1 trapping, fishing and hunting. 2 Our Cree values and attachment to the land, 3 water and traditions continue to be very important to 4 us. But the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, both our 5 leaderships and our members, recognize their 6 traditional sources of livelihood can no longer meet 7 the increasing and changing needs of a growing 8 population and changing economy. We will always 9 hunt, trap and fish as part of the -- as part of 10 maintaining our culture but we cannot expect our 11 economy will be based on that. 12 Unemployment and living conditions at both 13 Nelson House and South Indian Lake are now at the 14 level that could not be tolerated by the citizens of 15 other communities in southern Canada. Why should we? 16 We must act to change this. 17 The leadership of the Nelson House Cree Nation 18 is trying to find ways to continue to use their 19 traditional resources of land and water in ways that 20 will benefit our people. They are trying to create a 21 dependable, long-term source of revenue that they 22 will own and control for the benefit of present and 23 future generations. 24 Attacking the present leadership of the 25 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation for political gain by 3205 1 those within the First Nation and by outside 2 self-appointed experts on Cree culture is not helping 3 either our communities or the vast majority of 4 concerned members of our First Nation. 5 Our Chief and Council have been elected in the 6 same manner as other Chief and Councils have been 7 over the past years, over the years. They are 8 recognized as our democratically elected leaders by 9 Canada, Manitoba and other First Nations and National 10 and Provincial First Nations organizations. They are 11 carrying out the difficult task of negotiating a 12 development agreement for Wuskwatim while at the same 13 time, administering the day-to-day affairs of the 14 First Nation that includes health, education, 15 welfare, policing, all of the things that by 16 themselves are extremely demanding. They deserve our 17 respect and our support for their efforts. 18 Certainly all aspects of the Wuskwatim 19 Development Agreement must be examined very closely 20 and carefully in the light of long-term benefits, and 21 to ensure continuing protection of our Treaty and 22 Aboriginal rights under the Constitution. 23 The best agreement possible must be 24 negotiated. If efforts for negotiating an agreement 25 are terminated prematurely without our Chief and 3206 1 Council bringing the full package to our people, we 2 will all lose. We cannot squander real, tangible 3 options for bringing essential economic support to 4 our people. It's good to question but we need real 5 results and we need them today. 6 I realize it won't be easy but I believe that 7 the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation is on the right path 8 with this project and we should work together for the 9 benefit of all our people. No one else will do it 10 for us. I support the Chief and Council and I urge 11 them and our members to continue to work for this 12 project. Thank you. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. 14 Question, Mr. Nepinak? 15 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 16 Mr. Spence, in your opening remarks here, you also 17 resided in Winnipeg in the last 10 years. Do you 18 also speak for your urban members in the city, 19 Brandon or Dauphin or other centres? 20 MR. SPENCE: I came here as an 21 individual. I don't represent any organization. But 22 the thing that I wanted to express is certainly there 23 is urban representation out there. And I know 24 through our legal teams through the -- to the First 25 Nation here that we have been contacted and there's 3207 1 been consultation. And certainly I think the 2 continued consultation was with urban areas like 3 Winnipeg and Thompson and Brandon. It's essential 4 and certainly we'll be making -- we'll be talking to 5 people in urban areas in regards to making probably 6 an urban presentation if allowed on a future date in 7 Winnipeg. 8 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions? Thank 10 you. Thank you very much, Mr. Spence. Mr. Grewar. 11 Oh, just a second. There is a question. 12 MR. HART: Good morning. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Your name, sir? 14 MR. HART: My name is Charlie Hart. I'm 15 an NCN member. Mr. Spence, my question is in your 16 past dealings with the province and Manitoba Hydro in 17 your position as Chief and negotiating the Northern 18 Flood Agreement, do you recall back then that the 19 Province and Manitoba Hydro were the most stubborn 20 people to deal with in terms of the negotiating? 21 MR. SPENCE: I think that's one of the 22 things that I mentioned in regards to -- in regards 23 to our leadership. I know they are going through a 24 rough time and I know negotiations are very 25 difficult. I think particularly the present day, 3208 1 present is that when we require our leadership and 2 our technical people to be able to negotiate with the 3 province and the Manitoba Hydro, certainly it's 4 difficult. Any negotiations is difficult and I think 5 that's what I mean by support. We have to be able to 6 get behind these guys if they are going to do a 7 solution in terms of the Wuskwatim project. 8 MR. HART: Do you think that this time 9 around they are better prepared to listen to us in a 10 more fair manner than before? 11 MR. SPENCE: I certainly hope so. And 12 certainly with all the consultations that we've had 13 even from our -- from living in Winnipeg, all the 14 information that we got from our workers, there's a 15 lot of paper out there and I think it's just up to us 16 to be able to read what's given to us. You know, 17 when we say there's no consultation, it's pretty 18 difficult for me to say there's no consultation. 19 It's difficult for me even to read all the 20 information that's given to me. 21 MR. HART: So you -- 22 MR. SPENCE: So I think we're prepared, 23 yeah. 24 MR. HART: So you feel now that our 25 people are better consulted than they had been before 3209 1 in past projects? 2 MR. SPENCE: I know for a fact that 3 with the present technology and the people that we 4 have, the technical people and people are more 5 knowledgeable in terms of what has happened. And I 6 know the voice that's being heard out there, I know 7 that there's more consultation. 8 MR. HART: Thank you. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you, 10 Mr. Spence. Mr. Grewar? 11 MR. GREWAR: If we might enter Mr. 12 Spence's presentation. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, just register it 14 anyways. 15 MR. GREWAR: OTH 1007, Mr. Spence's 16 presentation to the hearings. 17 18 19 (EXHIBIT OTH 1007: Mr. Spence's presentation 20 to the hearings) 21 22 THE CHAIRMAN: There's a question. 23 MR. C. BAKER: Good morning. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning. 25 MR. C. BAKER: My name is Chris Baker. 3210 1 I'm from the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation in South 2 Indian Lake and I'm also an NCN Band member. I'd 3 like to ask Mr. Spence what was the concept at the 4 time when you were deeply involved in the 5 negotiations with the NFA? What was the concept 6 there? 7 MR. SPENCE: Can you be more specific 8 in terms of the concept? 9 MR. C. BAKER: What I'm trying to 10 understand or bring forward to you or you were 11 bringing to make me understand this a little clearer. 12 The concept that I'm talking about is the development 13 of the NFA in the seventies, beginning in '69 I think 14 it was, when there were I think originally eight 15 communities if I'm correct, if my memory serves me 16 correct. And then it dwindled down to five which are 17 the five existing NFA Bands. What was the concept 18 that the Bands had agreed on in 19 -- I can't really 19 exactly remember when they signed that agreement but 20 do you recall what the concept was? 21 MR. SPENCE: Mr. Chairman, it's going 22 to be a lengthy explanation if I have to go back 23 right in terms of the forming of the Northern Flood 24 Agreement. 25 I know that when we first started off, if I 3211 1 may get to it, is I know there was going to be 2 flooding in the early seventies and the consultation 3 that we knew at the time in the local level is 4 eventually going to be flooded. So the concept that 5 we had is that at the time is how do we go in as a 6 group, and that's the local level I'm talking about 7 as people were concerned that there was going to be 8 flooding. 9 And certainly we contacted all the support 10 that we can. We contacted the Federal Government, 11 the Provincial Government and other resources that we 12 were able to obtain at that time. But there was no 13 money. There was no resources. There was no 14 negotiations. Nobody wanted to listen to us. 15 The only people that were -- that we were able 16 to negotiate or we were able to get help was from the 17 Mennonite organization. And I think from the 18 Mennonite organization, we were able to at least go 19 to the governments, to the Federal Government, the 20 Provincial Government and Hydro. And I think that 21 was the time that the concept was, you know, we had 22 to do something. There's going to be something, 23 there's going to be an impact on our reserve. 24 But not only that as Nelson House, the 25 forerunner, we had to get other Bands involved. We 3212 1 had to get the five Bands. We were able to at least 2 build support from our local level and to be able to 3 start negotiating. I think that's when the Federal 4 Government, the Province and Hydro came on board and 5 said, you know, well, let's get some proposals for 6 you and see how much we can assist you. 7 So that's how we started off. 8 MR. C. BAKER: Just to link that to the 9 Treaty 5 territory which under our Treaty rights as 10 Treaty people in this country, which Canada has a 11 fiduciary obligation to us, would it be fair to say 12 that that concept should still be practised? 13 MR. SPENCE: Well, certainly. You 14 know, federal representatives can speak for 15 themselves but I think I mentioned that our Treaty 16 rights have to be protected under our Constitution. 17 You know, the fiduciary responsibility of the Federal 18 Government still has to be recognized but I can't 19 speak for them. 20 MR. C. BAKER: I am not asking for you 21 to speak for them, I was just asking for your 22 perspective in understanding of our Treaty rights. 23 MR. SPENCE: Well, certainly. You 24 know, I think that negotiations are happening. 25 Certainly we have to get them involved. 3213 1 MR. C. BAKER: Thank you. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you. Good morning. 4 My name is William Osborne. I'm from Pimicikamak. 5 I've got 50 pages of questions to ask to Mr. Spence. 6 I'm just kidding. 7 Good morning, Mr. Spence. 8 9 (CREE SPOKEN) 10 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, do you have a 12 question? 13 14 (CREE SPOKEN) 15 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, do you have a 17 question? 18 19 (CREE SPOKEN) 20 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Osborne. Mr. 22 Osborne. Would you shut the mike, please. Put the 23 mike on and ask your questions. 24 MR. OSBORNE: I am asking my questions. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Now you are. 3214 1 MR. OSBORNE: At the time of the 2 negotiations prior to the actual NFA itself, did the 3 parties come to a conclusion or an agreement and that 4 to state in the event that the NFA cannot be 5 implemented, we shall come up with an alternative 6 agreement? 7 8 (CREE SPOKEN) 9 10 MR. SPENCE: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to 11 be able to respond in my language first. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Do so. 13 MR. SPENCE: And hopefully I can 14 interpret for myself. 15 16 (CREE SPOKEN) 17 18 MR. SPENCE: I just wanted a 19 clarification in terms of the question that he was 20 asking. He's asking about the Northern Flood 21 Committee and the terms of the negotiations that were 22 happening then. I realize that the Northern Flood 23 Committee consists of five Bands. And I know the 24 fact that that was the only agreement that we signed 25 at the time. 3215 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 2 3 (CREE SPOKEN) 4 5 MR. SPENCE: I've got to talk Cree 6 first. 7 8 (CREE SPOKEN) 9 10 MR. SPENCE: I can't answer that 11 question. The only question I can answer is the 12 Northern Flood. You know, we have our own technical 13 people. We have our own Chief and Council here. I 14 can't speak for them. 15 MR. OSBORNE: And I will say this in 16 English for your sake, Mr. Chairman. 17 18 (CREE SPOKEN) 19 20 MR. OSBORNE: I asked Mr. Spence if he 21 knows, to his knowledge, if Hydro had a licence or 22 does Hydro have a licence to the existing projects 23 and did they have hearings such as this prior to the 24 existing projects in your knowledge, Mr. Spence? 25 MR. SPENCE: My knowledge. 3216 1 (CREE SPOKEN) 2 3 MR. SPENCE: I'll speak my Cree first. 4 5 (CREE SPOKEN) 6 7 MR. SPENCE: It's been such a long time 8 since the Northern Flood Negotiations that are 9 happening in those years past. Today we see a lot of 10 resources. There's a lot of resources and there's a 11 lot of technical people here that we can tap into. 12 And I know that in terms of our own negotiations, we 13 probably did make a lot of mistakes and probably we 14 didn't do it right but I know now we have a lot of 15 people that can help us out in determining, and I 16 can't speak for Hydro, I can probably ask Hydro 17 whether they had a licence then but certainly they 18 had a licence if they did flood our land. 19 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Spence. 20 Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for allowing me to 21 ask a few questions. But I will tell you again, 22 please respect our language. It is the very essence 23 of our way of life. Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you had made that 25 comment the other day. You made that comment the 3217 1 other day and I'll also ask you, sir, to be fair and 2 to respect the process. Please respect the process 3 which we are under way. You have asked for your 4 language to be spoken. It is and I can hear it 5 translated too. So when you speak in your language 6 and you're not respecting the process, I also hear 7 that. And therefore that is why, sir, I interrupted 8 you because you are not asking questions as you were 9 supposed to under this process. 10 We try to be very flexible and allow each one 11 of those that comes forward to put their question in 12 context. It's the preamble to your question and we 13 have -- we exercise as much flexibility as possible. 14 But then if you go on to make a presentation at that 15 time, it is not correct because you have opportunity 16 to make presentation at other times and you, sir, 17 have availed yourself of that possibility already 18 during the hearings in Winnipeg. And other people 19 here also would like to have an opportunity. So 20 please, respect the process. Thank you. 21 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, sir. I 22 respect your comments. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sergeant. 24 MR. SARGEANT: I think I can provide an 25 answer to Mr. Osborne's last questions when he asked 3218 1 whether or not previous dams had been subject to a 2 review such as this. And to the best of my 3 understanding, no, they weren't because the Clean 4 Environment Commission review process was not 5 established until the Environment Act was introduced 6 in 1987. This is the first Hydro project to commence 7 after the introduction of that Act. 8 I should also note just by way of interest 9 that the Minister of Environment who introduced that 10 Act is now the Chair of this Committee, Mr. Lecuyer. 11 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, sir. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. McIvor, do you have 13 a question for Mr. Spence? 14 MR. MCIVOR: A couple of questions. 15 Mr. Spence, in your experience with the Northern 16 Flood Agreement, could you -- at that time when the 17 flooding started happening at Nelson House, the 18 difference between trapping production prior to the 19 flooding and the five years after the flooding, was 20 there a noticeable difference in production for 21 trapping, number one, and fishing, number 2. 22 MR. SPENCE: Unfortunately I'm not a 23 trapper. I am not a fisherman. But I know that in 24 talking to the Elders, in talking to the trappers, I 25 know for a fact that there was a decrease in the 3219 1 latter part after the flooding. But as years went 2 by, I stand to be corrected, I have to go back to my 3 own consultation with our local trappers, I know that 4 there was a -- I think they came out to a level 5 eventually. But I have to get the data information 6 in regards to that. I know that they picked up along 7 the way in terms of the trapping. 8 And the fishermen, I know that -- I think the 9 best person to talk to is the Fisherman Association 10 that's here. So I can't speak on their behalf. 11 MR. MCIVOR: The reason I was asking 12 the questions, Mr. Spence, is you know, as a former 13 Chief of Nelson House and one the leaders as you had 14 indicated in your comments in creating the Northern 15 Flood Committee with representation from four other 16 Bands, would it be fair to say that those issues are 17 with respect to your trappers in NCN and also to the 18 fishermen in NCN that you had sufficient information 19 to be able to make arrangements to enter into 20 agreements for both trappers and fishermen in your 21 community? 22 MR. SPENCE: To reiterate what I said 23 in regards to the implementation of the Northern 24 Flood Agreement, I, as an individual and also in 25 consultation in with my Band membership, that we were 3220 1 able to implement the Northern Flood Agreement. So 2 we implemented the Northern Flood Agreement at the 3 time with consultation of our local members. I 4 assume that they were satisfied in terms of what they 5 were getting. 6 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. In saying that, Mr. 7 Spence, how many people in your community would have 8 been affected by the change in trapping and fishing 9 as a whole? What percentage of your community would 10 have been affected by that? 11 MR. SPENCE: Are we talking the present 12 day or 1970s? 13 MR. MCIVOR: Well, I think the early 14 part of the agreement, you know, prior to signing in 15 1977. I imagine that as you had indicated, you know, 16 with the resources you had available collecting the 17 type of data you needed to be able to make a decision 18 on behalf of your community, as Mr. Osborne has 19 indicated, there was some 20 plus articles of the 20 Northern Flood Agreement that dealt with specific 21 areas. My question is what percentage of your 22 community at that time would have relied on fishing 23 and trapping? Not just fishermen and trappers but 24 the families included. 25 MR. SPENCE: If you want more details 3221 1 in regards to that, I think we have our legal counsel 2 here that can probably look it up and see exactly, 3 exactly the figures that you want. I don't know what 4 figures we have at this time but I haven't got 5 anything -- I don't even have the Flood Agreement in 6 front of me. But if you want that information, we 7 can certainly look for it and give it to the 8 Commission here. 9 10 (UNDERTAKING NCN 53: Advise what percentage of NCN 11 community would have relied on fishing and trapping 12 and been affected by the change in trapping and 13 fishing prior to signing the NFA in 1977) 14 15 MR. MCIVOR: Yeah, well I think I just 16 wanted to get some indication, Mr. Spence, in terms 17 of like there is Mr. Adkins I think this morning had 18 questioned Mr. Dysart on Articles or Agreements 46 19 and 47 in South Indian Lake. You must have had 20 similar agreements to consider. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. McIvor, Mr. Spence 22 has replied that he didn't have that information here 23 or that doesn't recall the details for the question 24 that you ask. 25 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. Thank you. Maybe 3222 1 I'll ask a couple other questions. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Maybe you'll have other 3 opportunities to ask someone else at some other time. 4 MR. MCIVOR: Could I ask some more 5 questions? Isn't that why we're here? He made a 6 presentation. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, yes. You can ask 8 other questions. 9 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. All right. Maybe, 10 Mr. Spence, you can -- Mr. Adkins had asked Mr. 11 Dysart this morning regarding what kind of pressure 12 or impact the fur lobby had on traditional harvesting 13 such as trapping. What would you say in Nelson House 14 would have happened as a result based on your 15 experience as the lead negotiator for NCN? 16 MR. SPENCE: I'm not quite sure in 17 regards to the impact that it had at the time because 18 I don't think whoever they were talking about, I 19 don't think there was any impact at the time because 20 it was just after not very long ago that this just 21 came up. That I know that a few years back, you 22 know, that prior to the Northern Flood Agreement, 23 there wasn't that much opposition in regards to the 24 fur trade. But I know it had an impact after there 25 was a lobbyist against our fur trade. 3223 1 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. So you think you 2 might have that -- be able to access that 3 information? Is that something that is available to 4 you as an NCN member? 5 MR. SPENCE: I can certainly consult 6 with our legal counsel and see what we have. 7 MR. MCIVOR: Just a final question. In 8 terms of, you know, the consultation process back 9 then, I understand that it was limited basically to 10 the First Nations communities. And are you familiar 11 with any other agreements that were entered into as 12 part of your supplemental to the Northern Flood that 13 you are aware of? 14 MR. SPENCE: I know the Northern Flood 15 Agreement you're talking about. If there's any 16 subsidiary agreements, there is -- I still have to -- 17 you know, for the record, I still have to do a little 18 bit of my homework and do a little bit of research 19 but certainly, you know, if there's anything there, I 20 would certainly share it. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 22 MR. MCIVOR: Thank you. 23 24 (UNDERTAKING NCN 54: Advise if there are any 25 supplemental agreements to the Northern Flood 3224 1 Agreement) 2 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. It is just 4 prior to twelve o'clock, very close to twelve. And 5 rather than call for another presentation before 6 noon, I wish to advise that we have quite a large 7 number of presentations still to be made and 8 hopefully we can put them all through this afternoon. 9 So I ask your indulgence. We'll be back here at one 10 o'clock to carry on. 11 12 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 11:56 A.M. and 13 RECONVENED AT 1:06 P.M.) 14 15 THE CHAIRMAN: We shall carry on with 16 the presentations. I'll begin by calling Mr. Gilbert 17 Pronteau. Is Mr. Gilbert Pronteau here? Maybe he's 18 not back yet. So we'll get back to that after. Mr. 19 William Anderson. Okay. 20 Do you have copies, sir, of your presentation? 21 MR. ANDERSON: No. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We can make 23 photocopies. Sir, would you introduce yourself and 24 then Mr. Grewar will swear you in. 25 MR. ANDERSON: Good afternoon. My name 3225 1 is William Anderson. I'm the mayor for Granville 2 Lake. I'd like to thank the CEC for this opportunity 3 to speak. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar. 5 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Anderson, are you 6 aware that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 7 mislead this Commission? 8 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 9 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 10 only the truth in proceedings before this Commission? 11 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 12 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 13 14 (WILLIAM ANDERSON: SWORN) 15 16 THE CHAIRMAN: And if I may ask all the 17 presenters not to read their presentations so fast 18 that it's difficult for the court reporters to take 19 down their message. 20 MR. ANDERSON: The community of 21 Granville Lake is located on the upper reaches of the 22 Churchill River Diversion. The Churchill River is a 23 main highway for our people. They travel by boat to 24 Leaf Rapids, South Indian and also deliver fish to 25 the fish plant located on northeast of Leaf Rapids. 3226 1 Our people also travel through Suwannee Lake to Rat 2 Lake. Our community has struggled to continue our 3 traditions and practices within the impacted regions 4 of the Laurie River area and the Churchill River 5 Diversion. The flooding and continued water 6 fluctuations caused by the Laurie River operations, 7 the CRD and the augmented flow program continue to 8 have extreme environmental, economic and socio 9 consequences in our area. 10 Hydro development continues to adversely 11 impact our traditions and practice such as hunting. 12 That's moose, goose and ducks, medicinal plant 13 gathering, recreation, travel, trapping, fishing and 14 being at one with our land. 15 We have been living with the adverse impact 16 caused by the development of Laurie River, the 17 Churchill River Diversion and the augmented flow 18 program for the last few decades with no resolution 19 to our pleas. 20 We have serious concerns on the impact of loss 21 of culture and the identity to our youths. 22 The people of Granville Lake have lived on and 23 practised their traditional way of life in the Laurie 24 River area and the Churchill River area since the 25 time before hydro development. The following deals 3227 1 with the Granville Lake people, the actual 2 connectedness to and being at one with the land and 3 the impacts of Hydro development on this 4 connectedness. 5 We as Cree people live with a great respect 6 and understanding and are connected to our land, to 7 the land of our ancestors. We belong to and are part 8 of the land. When the land is damaged, we are 9 damaged. When the land natural cycles are disrupted 10 by development, our natural cycles for being at one 11 with the land are also disrupted. 12 The term for a Cree person in our language is 13 Ethinew and the Cree term for actual connectedness to 14 and being at one with the land is Ethineen. 15 Ethineen, the actual connectedness to and being at 16 one with the land for a Cree person is fostered and 17 developed from early childhood, as this connectedness 18 to and being at one with the land is passed down to 19 us through our ancestors. The very basis of our 20 identity as Cree relies on the fostering, development 21 and retention of our Ethineen. 22 Ethineen is significant when referring to the 23 socio impacts of hydro development on us as Cree 24 people of Granville Lake and the amount of internal 25 turmoil that hydro development has had on the Cree 3228 1 person that uses the adversely impacted areas for 2 cultural development, traditional use, recreation 3 use, commercial use and travel. 4 There is a cycle of knowledge and 5 understanding that we as Cree people go through in 6 life which solidifies our identity for us. This 7 cycle is fostered by the land our parents, 8 grandparents, great-grandparents, as this knowledge 9 and understanding has been passed on to us for 10 generations. All this brings an understanding to us 11 as Cree people that we are part of and connected to 12 the land in a very strong way. 13 This cycle of knowledge has been going on for 14 as long as Cree have been Cree. It is one of the 15 reasons why extended families work so well within 16 their Cree society. As no matter who a child is 17 raised with, they know the land they come from and 18 they are part of that land. They know their identify 19 is Cree and with the land; however, there have been 20 breaks and disruptions to this cycle of knowledge 21 that have not been natural which have been caused in 22 a major way, but not exclusively, by hydro 23 development on the Laurie River system and the 24 Churchill River system. This development has and 25 continues to have extreme consequences to the 3229 1 individual Cree person's identity in the Granville 2 Lake area. The breaks and disruptions of this cycle 3 have had significant negative consequences on us as 4 Cree people. 5 Due to the water level and flow variations 6 caused by the operations of the Laurie River and 7 Churchill River, there has been significant impact to 8 the land usage of the Granville Lake area. The water 9 flow and the water level variations have created 10 heavy dead willow and debris along the shorelines of 11 traditional summer camp areas which make these areas 12 not safe for young children and hinder access to 13 families that would normally use these areas. The 14 water flow and level changes also hinder fall, 15 winter, spring travel in these areas due to slush 16 conditions and unsafe ice conditions which render 17 this area unusable for significant periods of time 18 during the year. 19 This is where the Cree of Granville Lake area 20 run into difficulties in maintaining the ties to the 21 lands that they were raised on. The tie and 22 connection to the land, their Ethineen is in jeopardy 23 and must be recognized and addressed. 24 The break to the ethineen of our children, 25 newborn to teenagers, has had continuous -- has had 3230 1 and continues to have the highest impact on us as 2 Cree. We, as adults and elders, have had sufficient 3 time to know and develop our ethineen. We have our 4 identity. Our children are and will continue to lose 5 their identity to the land of our ancestors. 6 Although they have to be told about it, without 7 experience in that part of them, their ethineen gets 8 weaker as time progresses. This is the trouble for 9 us -- this is troubling for us. As history has told 10 us, there are many instances where the loss of 11 Aboriginal ties to their lands has dire consequences 12 on them as people. 13 We Cree that are part of the land in the 14 Laurie River area have placed it as a most important 15 part of the adverse effects of the operations of the 16 Laurie River and the Churchill River. 17 Once again, it is in the break and detachment 18 of the development of the identity of our children 19 that has been damaged. Their ethineen is in 20 jeopardy. For us as adults and elders, it is also 21 the detachment from our land that causes us great 22 grief and anguish. 23 It is safe to say from us as Cree, a part of 24 our being is lost. For when our land is damaged, we 25 are damaged. When our land is hurt, we are hurt. 3231 1 When we are separated or detached from our land, a 2 piece of us will always be missing. Who are we when 3 we are not part of our land? 4 In essence, this is a slow genocide of our 5 identify as Cree. This break and detachment from the 6 land must be recognized and addressed. 7 Manitoba Hydro has free reign for the last 30 8 years and it must stop. We have never signed on to 9 CRD or the augmented flow program. The free reign 10 and to do damage to our environment without 11 agreements has to stop. 12 I have concerns on the Wuskwatim process, its 13 communication with the community -- and its 14 communication with the community of Granville Lake. 15 For instance, the way the consultation was done, we 16 would have liked to have had some say into what were 17 the parameters and basically, possibly influence some 18 of the baseline thinking on the scope of 19 consultation. 20 The operations of the Laurie River, CRD and 21 the augmented flow program still have many unresolved 22 and outstanding issues concerning environmental 23 impacts, socio impacts, economic impacts, outstanding 24 compensation and settlement and the consultation 25 issues surrounding the annual renewal of the 3232 1 augmented flow program. 2 This is where I speak -- this is where I have 3 to speak about the future development called 4 Wuskwatim. I would like to put a motion to the floor 5 that the CEC stop these proceedings until a time that 6 issues surrounding the continued loss of the identity 7 of the people of Granville Lake due to the 8 developments of the Laurie River and CRD development 9 and augmented flow program are addressed and 10 resolved. 11 We, the people of Granville Lake, believe that 12 this process must have a look at the Manitoba Hydro 13 past developments and ensure Manitoba Hydro addresses 14 and resolves all outstanding claims and issues before 15 they are granted approval for future development. 16 And I thank you for your time. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Sir, you are 18 presently negotiating with Hydro for settlement of 19 claims related to the CRD program? 20 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, Laurie River also. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: And the Laurie River. 22 You have talked about the variations of flow between 23 seasons I gather. They vary regularly as a result of 24 the controls of the -- 25 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 3233 1 THE CHAIRMAN: -- CRD? 2 MR. ANDERSON: We have had engineers 3 take a look at that, yes. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: You're talking about the 5 controls of Missi Falls or Notigi? 6 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, Notigi. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. You made 8 reference to the augmented flow. My understanding is 9 it was that the augmented flow was flowing towards 10 the Burntwood. But you're saying, I wasn't sure I 11 understood how potentially that could have an effect 12 on the Churchill River. So maybe I need some 13 clarification here. 14 MR. ANDERSON: Mr. Baker is one of our 15 representatives in the community of Granville Lake. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, if you wish to sit. 17 MR. ANDERSON: Sorry about the 18 interruption. My understanding is that Hydro is 19 under one grid and when it impacts South Indian, that 20 in turn impacts the community all the way up the 21 river, right. 22 MR. L. BAKER: Right. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: I still don't understand 24 that but I'll let others pursue with their questions. 25 Questions? Are there questions? 3234 1 MR. FORTIN: I don't know how to put 2 this into a question to you. Is it a question to the 3 gentlemen sitting at the Board? 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 5 MR. ABRA: What's your name? 6 MR. FORTIN: My name is Keith Henry 7 Fortin. 8 Do you believe from the control structures 9 that were put in place by Manitoba Hydro at Missi 10 Falls and Notigi have impacts on the pickerel not 11 being allowed to return back into the lake after 12 they've gone over the falls? And that would, I don't 13 know, in question, would it have reduced the ability 14 of fish in those areas and would the development of 15 Wuskwatim actually make another gate in which would 16 not allow the pickerel back up into the systems in 17 which they came, reducing the fish? Is this 18 something that you actually think has happened? 19 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. I think development 20 at Missi Falls and the fish going back up river is 21 not there. I mean the rivers are totally shut off 22 there. I'm pretty sure they can't swim through 23 turbines. Like I can't be scientific about it 24 myself, we have people out there that will do that. 25 But it's a known fact though that when a structure is 3235 1 built, the fishing area surrounding the lake that's 2 damaged declines very drastically. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Further 4 questions? Mr. Adkins? 5 MR. ADKINS: Yes. Just if I could, Mr. 6 Anderson, just a few questions. First of all, Laurie 7 River plants you're referring to, they were built in 8 about 1950, 1951 if I'm correct; is that right? 9 MR. ANDERSON: '52. 10 MR. ADKINS: '52. My understanding is 11 they were actually built by Sherritt Gordon; is that 12 correct as well? 13 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, it is. 14 MR. ADKINS: Manitoba Hydro didn't 15 become involved with them until about 1970; am I 16 correct about that, too? 17 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 18 MR. ADKINS: My understanding is there 19 were some arrangements between Sherritt Gordon and 20 your community. Do you recall that? 21 MR. L. BAKER: The arrangements were 22 made with the resource users of Mathias Colomb Band, 23 not Granville Lake. 24 MR. ADKINS: But those were the 25 resource users in that area of the Laurie River 3236 1 plants, correct? 2 MR. L. BAKER: That's on the flooded 3 side of the area. We're talking about the adverse 4 effects below the Laurie River system. 5 MR. ADKINS: My understanding is that 6 you approached Manitoba Hydro after Manitoba Hydro 7 became the owner of those plants and you suggested 8 there were some grievances? Am I correct about that? 9 You had some concerns? 10 MR. L. BAKER: Yes. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a second, Mr. 12 Adkins. Sir, would you provide your name for the 13 record? 14 MR. L. BAKER: Leslie Baker. I'm the 15 head negotiator for Granville Lake. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar, would you 17 swear in Mr. Baker. 18 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Baker, are you aware 19 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 20 mislead this Commission? 21 MR. L. BAKER: No. Yes, I do. 22 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 23 just the truth in the proceedings? 24 MR. L. BAKER: Yes, absolutely. 25 3237 1 (LESLIE BAKER: SWORN) 2 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Proceed. 4 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 5 MR. ADKINS: Either Mr. Baker or Mr. 6 Anderson, whichever of you is aware of the situation, 7 my understanding is that Manitoba Hydro actually 8 retained someone back in 1992 after these complaints 9 were made to take a look at this issue. Do you 10 recall that at all? 11 MR. L. BAKER: I believe that was 12 Mathias Colomb. 13 MR. ADKINS: Mathias Colomb. I 14 understand there were in fact reports done in terms 15 of the Granville Lake, the Pickerel Narrows Community 16 Association that Hugh McKay did some work and then 17 subsequently Manitoba Hydro I think provided funding 18 so that you can have some independent review done? 19 MR. L. BAKER: There was a review done. 20 MR. ADKINS: And my understanding is 21 that the engineering that was done at that point in 22 time indicated that in fact the augmented flow 23 program and the CRD effects did not come back to the 24 area that you are referring to. Do you recall that? 25 MR. L. BAKER: I can't answer that one 3238 1 right now, but there is impacts. 2 MR. ADKINS: There are certainly some 3 effects I gather Manitoba Hydro in fact again, 4 because you had grievances and I think some from the 5 plants that were built in the fifties, the early 6 fifties, the Laurie River plants, they actually have 7 provided you with funding to retain some experts and 8 lawyers to meet with Hydro? 9 MR. L. BAKER: That's correct. 10 MR. ADKINS: And there's an effort 11 under way right now to try to find some resolution to 12 the grievances that you have relating to those plants 13 back in the 1950s? 14 MR. L. BAKER: Yes, there is. 15 MR. ADKINS: And that process is 16 ongoing today? 17 MR. L. BAKER: It's still ongoing. 18 MR. ADKINS: Good. Those are the only 19 questions I have. Thank you. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. If there are 21 no further questions, we thank you for the 22 presentation, the contribution. I will ask Mr. 23 Grewar to -- 24 MR. GREWAR: Sorry. Mr. Chairman, I 25 just wanted a clarification. Mr. Anderson, you are 3239 1 representing Granville Lake or are you representing 2 the Pickerel Narrows Community Association? That was 3 how we originally had you registered. Is that our 4 error? 5 MR. ANDERSON: I'm the Mayer of 6 Granville Lake, yes. 7 MR. GREWAR: So it's Granville Lake 8 you're representing? 9 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, yes. 10 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. We would 11 assign Mr. Anderson's presentation on behalf of 12 Granville Lake then at OTH 1008. And I'll make 13 copies for those needing them. 14 15 (EXHIBIT OTH 1008: Mr. Anderson's 16 presentation on behalf of Granville Lake) 17 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Is this a 19 question? 20 MR. DYSART: Yes, it is. I was 21 momentarily distracted there and I missed the 22 opportunity. William, Mr. Anderson, you are aware 23 through some of the presentations here the lengths 24 NCN and Manitoba Hydro have gone in their discussions 25 and what they term consultation as early back as 3240 1 1997. Has your community been consulted or has 2 Manitoba Hydro and NCN talked with yourselves as 3 elected representatives of Granville Lake in regards 4 to the Wuskwatim project? 5 MR. ANDERSON: Not to my knowledge, no. 6 MR. DYSART: And you do have NCN 7 members residing in Granville Lake? 8 MR. ANDERSON: I am an NCN member. 9 MR. DYSART: Thank you. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Seeing no 11 other, we thank you. Sorry, there's another 12 question, I'm sorry. 13 MR. C. BAKER: Good afternoon. My name 14 is Chris Baker. I'm from the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree 15 Nation, South Indian Lake. 16 As I understood you, either Mr. Baker or Mr. 17 Anderson could either answer this question, you 18 mentioned that there was adverse impacts in the 19 resource area also relating that to the socioeconomic 20 impacts that your community must be feeling. Could 21 you describe some of those adverse impacts, please? 22 Thanks. 23 MR. ANDERSON: For that, Laurie River 24 in regards to recreation and traditional medicines, 25 some years that they just don't take the -- 3241 1 traditional medicines don't grow due to lack of water 2 or the water is too high. And unsafe recreational 3 area, travel area when the water is low. And that in 4 itself puts more pressure towards being -- toward 5 sustenance hunting and puts a lot more stress onto 6 the families that usually traditionally go up there 7 for their own way of healing and such. 8 I hope that touches on some of the questions. 9 And the economic developments of it is that 10 the rivers that we have to travel to get up to the 11 Laurie River is, it's not navigable because the water 12 is too low at times. It changes from one week to the 13 next. 14 I hope that answers some of your questions 15 there, Mr. Baker. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mayer. 17 MR. MAYER: Mayor Anderson, as we speak 18 today, how many people live in Granville Lake? 19 MR. ANDERSON: There's nobody there 20 right now, sir. 21 MR. MAYER: And how long has it been 22 since you evacuated the community, sir? 23 MR. ANDERSON: March 24th, 2003. 24 MR. MAYER: I understand there's 25 significant resistance from a number of people about 3242 1 actually wanting to go back and they quite like it at 2 Leaf Rapids; am I correct? 3 MR. ANDERSON: My understanding, sir, 4 is that I as Mayor from Granville Lake, I have an 5 office there, and the continuous question is when are 6 we going home. Sure you may have a few of the young 7 people that never had housing in Granville Lake 8 wanting to stay when they have an apartment in Leaf 9 Rapids, but that resistance in regards to it being 10 no, you're not going to take me home kind of thing 11 is not there. Not from my understanding. 12 MR. MAYER: And how many people from 13 Granville Lake now are actually living in Leaf 14 Rapids? 15 MR. ANDERSON: Ninety-six. 16 MR. MAYER: That is your population 17 ordinarily then, is it? 18 MR. ANDERSON: Pardon me? 19 MR. MAYER: That is ordinarily the 20 population of Granville Lake? 21 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, sir. 22 MR. MAYER: Thank you very much. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Oh, you have one more 24 question? 25 MR. C. BAKER: Should I mention who I 3243 1 am again? 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, I didn't realize 3 you were back. I thought you had finished. 4 MR. C. BAKER: Here I am. I direct 5 this to either Mr. Anderson or Mr. Baker. Could you 6 tell us what is the main source of employment and 7 income in your community? 8 MR. L. BAKER: Well, Mr. Baker, I 9 guess I'll answer you. Our main income is commercial 10 fishing and trapping, about 90 per cent. We are 11 resource users. 12 MR. C. BAKER: Thank you. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Ms. Avery 14 Kinew. 15 MS. AVERY KINEW: Well, Mr. Anderson, 16 you're talking about the people who have to live off 17 reserve at the moment or off your community at the 18 moment. But no matter where they live, would they be 19 going back to your land for, you were talking about 20 traditional medicines and other, to carry out your 21 traditional livelihood that you talked about being 22 part of your identify as Cree people? Your people 23 would still be going back there? 24 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, they do. They try 25 and go back. One of the things they have a hard time 3244 1 with is they have to bypass the community to go up 2 the Laurie River to get medicinal herbs or medicinal 3 medicines. They have to bypass the community. They 4 can't go into the community for the basic reasons 5 that we are under security there right now. And it's 6 hard for them to go and not be able to go home. I 7 have had people say I can't even so much as go 8 towards Granville Lake for the basic reason I know 9 there's no place for me there right now. 10 But in order for them to go to where they 11 traditionally pick their medicines and traditionally 12 hunt and that, it's 70 miles now from their house 13 compared to it being 15 miles when they were home. 14 So yes, it is. The question was did we hear? 15 MS. AVERY KINEW: Well, if you live in 16 Leaf Rapids now, do you still go back to get 17 traditional medicines? 18 MR. ANDERSON: They try, yes. 19 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 21 MR. ANDERSON: I'm also a displaced 22 resident of South Indian Lake. I had to move 23 somewhere where I could start over. Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Is Mr. 25 Gilbert Pronteau here? 3245 1 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, we've tried 2 to reach Mr. Pronteau and we have been unable to get 3 him on the telephone so he may not be available today 4 at all. I was wondering if you might call Ramona 5 Neckowey. My apologies for the pronunciation. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Ramona Neckoway. 7 MS. NECKOWAY: Actually what I have is 8 nothing I think that would be -- it's just like an 9 oral. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Introduce 11 yourself and then we'll swear you in. 12 MS. NECKOWAY: My name is Ramona 13 Neckoway and I am a member of Nisichawayasihk Cree 14 Nation. I am temporarily residing in Winnipeg to 15 pursue studies. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 17 MR. GREWAR: Ms. Neckoway, are you 18 aware that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 19 mislead this Commission? 20 MS. NECKOWAY: I do now, thank you. 21 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 22 just the truth in proceedings before the Commission? 23 MS. NECKOWAY: I was actually thinking 24 about that question as I've been hearing this process 25 go along because there are many -- you know, there 3246 1 are many truths but I will, having said that, say 2 that I will not mislead this Commission knowingly. 3 MR. GREWAR: Thank you. Thank you. 4 5 (RAMONA NECKOWAY: SWORN) 6 7 MS. NECKOWAY: Okay. So I'm nervous. 8 I am an independent person here representing myself. 9 I told you that I am a member of Nelson House, 10 Nisichawayasihk. I am a mother of three and my 11 daughters will, like me, bear the future members of 12 Nelson House. 13 You will have to excuse my ignorance if any 14 arises during this process. As I've previously 15 mentioned, I'm a student and not versed or 16 knowledgeable about the process and technical jargon 17 associated with this on the whole. So please have 18 patience with me. 19 Having said that, I would also like to 20 articulate that although I am admittedly ignorant 21 about this process, I have been fortunate enough to 22 receive some form of post-secondary training and, as 23 a result, I am better able or better prepared to 24 understand a portion of this process because of it. 25 I will come back to this for future reference 3247 1 or as a reference later on. 2 I am here today to voice my opinion about this 3 project and to have my voice, my concerns publicly 4 recorded for my children and their children so they 5 can look back and see that I was opposed to this. 6 I want to begin by stating that I am opposed 7 to this project in its current form. I am opposed to 8 it because I do not trust Manitoba Hydro. And my 9 confidence in their claims for prosperity for my 10 community is non-existent. Many of the dealings 11 Manitoba Hydro has had with the Indigenous peoples of 12 this province has yielded results that are nothing 13 more than empty promises, deception, destruction. 14 One need only look at what has happened in 15 communities such as Cross Lake, South Indian and 16 Nisichawayasihk to see evidence of this. And we've 17 heard evidence of this today. 18 How can I trust Hydro when they have left a 19 trail of unfulfilled promises and devastation. How 20 can we be expected to trust Hydro when the shiny 21 beads they offer to entice us could end up destroying 22 us again? 23 Various entities are claiming that the 24 community supports this endeavour and the 25 consultation process has been cited as a part of it. 3248 1 I know for a fact that there are many who are wary of 2 this deal, myself included. For whatever reasons, 3 some have chosen to remain silent and that is their 4 right. If they choose to remain silent, that is 5 their right. It is my right to voice the concerns 6 that I have regarding this project as it has a 7 potential to alter life in my community again as we 8 know it. 9 It is not only my right to voice my concern, 10 it is also my responsibility. It is my 11 responsibility to my children and their children as 12 well as to those who came before us. 13 I have a responsibility for my late 14 grandfather whose sweat and blood is on that land 15 literally. The area where this proposed project is 16 going to be built is adjacent to my late 17 grandfather's trapline. My mother grew up in that 18 area. She has memories and it is attached to that 19 land even though she is no longer able to return 20 there. I have a responsibility to her as well as to 21 my grandfathers before us to voice my opposition to 22 this project. 23 I am here to articulate my questions and 24 comments concerning what I have seen and heard in 25 relation to this proposed Wuskwatim Project. I am 3249 1 talking about what I've heard at these CEC hearings 2 as well as documents that I have read pertaining to 3 Wuskwatim. I didn't bring copies of these for 4 anybody but this is just information that I have had 5 access to as an NCN member. And I'm not sure if the 6 Commission is familiar with these documents. 7 This is the special report, the SOU summary 8 and a newsletter, number five. So these are just 9 kind of my references. This is what I have access 10 to. Also, this thing that was handed out in 11 Winnipeg. I don't know if there's copies of it here. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: These I believe are all 13 on the record, so that's fine. 14 MS. NECKOWAY: Okay. So that's great. 15 So as I mentioned before, these documents are 16 documents that have been forwarded to me and I'm sure 17 these particular documents are floating around here 18 if you need them. So anyway, I will proceed. 19 The first comment I have pertains to this 20 supposed consultation that has apparently been taking 21 place during this process. The term "consultation" 22 has been utilized to describe some kind of process 23 involving the dissemination of information relating 24 to this project. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Can I ask you please to 3250 1 just go a little slower. 2 MS. NECKOWAY: This term appears in 3 several forms in a variety of this literature that I 4 have seen regarding Wuskwatim. For example, this 5 term can be found in the proposed Wuskwatim 6 Generation and Transmission Project newsletter, this. 7 It is also in this special 2004 report which has gone 8 out to NCN community members. And undoubtedly, it 9 must also appear in the SOU. 10 There is some ambiguity in my mind as to what 11 the consultation processes involves. Perhaps Hydro 12 and NCN might care to answer this for me in whatever 13 form is appropriate. I understand that there is 14 certain protocal associated with the Panel answering 15 direct questions. But I would be very grateful if 16 the respected parties could tell me what the 17 consultation process entails for each. 18 I thought I knew what the term "consultation" 19 meant but I decided that I'd best look and see what 20 it means. Since I do not have a battery of legal 21 professionals to inform or guide me, I decided to 22 consult a dictionary and see what the definition of 23 "consultation" was. Because I have seen this term -- 24 because I have encountered this term so extensively, 25 I decided I'd better know what it means. 3251 1 Okay. So I went to the dictionary, the 2 Merriam Webster dictionary to be exact. And the 3 definition of "consultation" is to ask the advice or 4 opinion of, or 2, to confer. A further definition of 5 "confer" is to exchange views. So the dictionary and 6 definition of "consultation" is to ask the advice or 7 opinion of or to exchange views. 8 As I mentioned earlier, I have seen this term 9 used excessively and I have some concerns about the 10 supposed consultation process. I am concerned 11 because I have heard and seen this term used 12 redundantly and feel as though I have not been 13 consulted. No one has asked me. No one has asked me 14 what I thought about this, at least not anyone 15 involved with this project who has a 16 fiscally-mandated responsibility to do so. 17 If consultation means having a package slipped 18 under the door of my home or being handed a book 19 filled with technical jargon which requires degrees 20 of sorts to comprehend in response to my queries, 21 then yes, to that extent, I have been consulted. 22 But according to the dictionary definition, 23 this is not what consultation is. I would like the 24 Commission to know that I have not been asked my 25 opinion about this project nor have I engaged in any 3252 1 kind of meaningful participation or dialogue with the 2 people involved in this despite what has been stated 3 here over the past few weeks. 4 I want Elvis and the others to know that I am 5 not opposed to economic -- to development and 6 economic growth and I hope that I am not labelled as 7 opposing economic development in my community. I 8 think that it would be great if we, as a community, 9 could improve our economic and social situation. I 10 am not opposed to new and innovative ideas that will 11 enhance our standard of living. 12 I am, however, concerned with the current 13 processes and mechanisms associated with the 14 Wuskwatim project. I respect what the leadership is 15 trying to do for the community but I am not entirely 16 convinced that this is what is best for us as NCN 17 people. I am wary though showing the beads that are 18 being offered to us. 19 There are contradictions of sorts associated 20 with Wuskwatim and these contradictions are what made 21 me suspect about this project. One contradiction 22 involves the fiscal responsibility that we, as NCN 23 members, have to assume to be part of this project. 24 How can we invest and buy into something when we have 25 nothing to invest in the first place? Our existing 3253 1 money should be utilized within the community. How 2 can we justify exporting the meagre monies for a 3 project of this magnitude when we have people who are 4 living in destitute conditions? 5 How can we -- we could be doing other things 6 with the money we save by not buying into this 7 project. I don't understand how we could sit by and 8 wait 30 odd years to reap monetary benefits from this 9 project. I understand that to fund a portion of this 10 project, NCN will have to come up with about $62 11 million. And that I took from this summary. And not 12 only that, we will have to come up with $1 million 13 just before the construction begins. I have a couple 14 of questions about this. 15 As an NCN member, I think I have the right to 16 know where that $1 million is going to come from by 17 the end of this year. According to the SOU summary, 18 we will have to come up with a further $21 million. 19 Where will this additional money come from? 20 Since I'm rather ignorant about interest rates 21 and as such, I'm wondering if Hydro can tell us, tell 22 me in simple layman terms how much we are going to 23 have to pay back on the approximately $41 million 24 they are going to lend us. Perhaps they could give 25 us, based on the assumption that we, as grassroots 3254 1 NCN people without formal knowledge about interest 2 rates and as such, an estimate of how much we will 3 owe in dollars and cents before the referendum takes 4 place. I also think that we have the right to know 5 where the other $21 million is going to come from. 6 Together we have to obtain $62 million and I'm 7 concerned about the details. According to the SOU 8 summary, we are going to be borrowing a lot of money 9 for this project which leads me to another question. 10 Why do we have to risk so much? If we must get 11 ourselves involved here, I think that we should just 12 get a percentage of the project. We should get a 13 portion of our monies annually simply because the 14 project is on our land. It is our Aboriginal right. 15 Again, I don't see how we can be expected to 16 come up with money that we don't have. I also don't 17 understand how Hydro can ask us to help destroy our 18 own environment, my grandfather's trapline, my 19 mother's memories. 20 I think I'm going to probably rhetorically -- 21 I'm going to ask for some clarification. Can I ask 22 direct questions of them? It has to be rhetorical? 23 Okay. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Rhetorical questions you 25 can ask, yes. 3255 1 MS. NECKOWAY: Okay. Can we really -- 2 this is for Hydro. Can we really walk away whenever 3 we want? Will we owe you monies incurred if we 4 choose to back out? Where is this money going to 5 come from for the pre-project business? And will we 6 be responsible for paying back costs incurred with 7 the pre-project phase? I hope that that will not be 8 figured into the millions and millions of dollars we 9 will owe you if this project goes through. 10 Another concern I have pertains to the 11 contradictions contained in the information that has 12 been published about Wuskwatim. And I am talking 13 about these documents here. I'm specifically 14 speaking about the information that I have as an NCN 15 member. There are contradictions of sorts within 16 this material as well. For example, I am back again 17 to this consultation thing. I have some concerns 18 about the supposed consultation process because it 19 indicates that something is not right with the 20 information that is being related to us as NCN people 21 and to the public. 22 According to the special report, and I quote, 23 "About half our NCN population has not 24 completed high school and one-third 25 has less than a grade 9 education." 3256 1 This is a very unfortunate situation, would you 2 agree? 3 And there is no mention of those who are 4 illiterate altogether, not that literacy is any 5 indication of knowledge. There are various kinds of 6 knowledge that is as valuable as that derived from 7 literacy. For the purposes here, the literacy rate 8 at NCN could be significant. 9 Now, with a population that is seemingly well 10 below that of mainstream society in terms of 11 education, I am wondering how meaningful consultation 12 process can be implemented so that fundamental 13 information is conveyed and understood. 14 Councillor Thomas has stated that the 15 membership has received, and I quote, "all the 16 necessary information." And that, I quote again, 17 "community consultation is community driven." I 18 wonder a couple of things. How can a consultation 19 process be of benefit to us as typical everyday 20 grassroots people? 21 I'm going to go back here to what I had said 22 about my own education. Assuming that I have been 23 properly consulted, how can I make sense of the 24 information that is given to me? I possess a 25 university degree and I'm having a hell of a time 3257 1 understanding what is contained in this information. 2 Can you please tell me how my grandmother, who 3 doesn't speak or read English, is to understand what 4 is going on? How can my aunts, uncles and cousins 5 begin to comprehend what is written or even spoken? 6 You need degrees of all sorts to understand what is 7 written down, presuming you can read it in the first 8 place. 9 I also wonder how any pertinent concepts can 10 be effectively translated so that their full 11 implications are relayed and understood? How can I 12 trust those involved here when they assert that we 13 are being consulted, yet, this is only contradicted 14 by what is in the literature. Something is not right 15 here. 16 We are dealing with a very serious issue and 17 I'm not sure that I can trust what I am being given 18 to read or what I am hearing. What I read says our 19 community is suffering from rampantly or low 20 education, yet what I am hearing is that we had been 21 informed. How can one be informed if one cannot 22 fully understand the implications and significance of 23 what is going on? 24 Elvis, I am glad that you have discussed and 25 brought our cultural components to the forefront 3258 1 during these hearings. 2 I have a question about NCN's role in the 3 environmental studies. Have we conducted our own 4 studies independent from those of Hydro? I am 5 concerned about the possible impact of this project 6 on other Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal communities 7 around us. Have we considered or consulted with them 8 about the implications of this project? 9 I would like to see some kind of consultation 10 process taking place with other communities. I think 11 it is our responsibility to do so. I also think that 12 it would be in keeping with the traditions you have 13 discussed so openly at this forum. 14 I am asking my leadership to bring in other 15 communities who could be affected by this directly. 16 Lastly, another question that I have got 17 pertains to the access road to Mile 20. I do believe 18 that the access road is at Mile 17 which is not that 19 far from where Nelson House holds their traditional 20 gatherings at Mile 20. Why has this access road been 21 built -- why is it being built so close to Mile 20? 22 Because of time restrictions, I'm going to end 23 there. I would like to urge the Commission to make a 24 recommendation to the Minister. I would like you to 25 convey to him or her that the consultation process is 3259 1 severely lacking and the people have not been 2 consulted. We are being told what is going on. We 3 need to be asked, not told. I for one am sick of 4 non-Aboriginal entities coming in and telling us what 5 is good for us or that this kind of development will 6 be a benefit to us. Progress does not necessarily 7 mean prosperity. 8 If this project means destroying the land that 9 my grandfather worked on, lived on and loved, if this 10 project means creating further divisiveness within my 11 own community and divisiveness between my community 12 and other Aboriginal communities, if this project 13 undermines our rights as Aboriginal people, then I 14 want no part of it. I see this project as another 15 colonial apparatus which will only serve to and 16 contribute to the existing tensions in my community 17 and other communities. It is a colonial apparatus 18 that will destroy our autonomy creating further 19 dependence and despair. 20 Again, I am voicing my concerns about this 21 project because I want my children and their children 22 to know that I did my part to save the land that my 23 grandfather loved. I do not believe that this 24 project is in the best interests of my community, 25 myself or my children. 3260 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Neckowey. 2 Ms. Neckowey, were you here when Mr. Thomas and other 3 members of -- some of the people who worked on the 4 Environmental Impact Statement made their 5 presentation yesterday? 6 MS. NECKOWAY: No, I just got into town 7 this morning. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you get an 9 opportunity to attend some of the hearings in 10 Winnipeg? 11 MS. NECKOWAY: I did. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. You are aware of 13 course there will be these hearings, when we have 14 completed this trip in the north, we'll go back to 15 Winnipeg and there will be opportunities for people 16 like you to come forth and ask the questions you have 17 asked now to the members of Hydro and NCN directly so 18 that they are not just rhetorical but they become 19 actual questions that you can put to them if you 20 wish. 21 MS. NECKOWAY: And then they will 22 answer them in that forum? 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. And I don't know 24 if you were aware that, at least we had been told at 25 these hearings, that before an agreement is ever 3261 1 reached, there will be further consultation with the 2 membership of NCN. I don't know if you were aware of 3 that. 4 MS. NECKOWAY: Um-hum. I have heard of 5 that, but again -- 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Personally, I have no 7 other questions to ask you at this time but maybe 8 others have. 9 MS. NECKOWAY: I think I need to make 10 one last statement here. It's not my intention here 11 to create any further tension in my community. I'm 12 simply voicing my concern as a mother and as a member 13 of Nelson House about this whole process. I'm not 14 here to, you know, say bad things about this person 15 or that person, I just want, you know, some dialogue 16 to take place so people can really think about what's 17 going on and the implication of this whole -- because 18 it's got the potential to alter everything again. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: You have asked questions 20 for which you want answers and my point of that, that 21 you have the opportunity to put these questions. 22 MS. NECKOWAY: I am. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Unfortunately, right now 24 is the time for you to make the presentation but 25 there will be other times for you to ask the 3262 1 questions. Thank you very much for your 2 presentation. 3 I will call upon Mr. Jim Stewart. Jim 4 Stewart. He's down for 3:00 so perhaps I'll come 5 back to that. Mr. Keith Fortin? Are you Mr. Fortin? 6 MR. FORTIN: Yes, I am. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: So I may have pronounced 8 that with a French accent. 9 MR. FORTIN: Yeah, that's right. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 11 MR. ADKINS: Just the last witness 12 stepped down very quickly and I think we would be 13 remiss if we didn't indicate that we appreciated very 14 much her articulate submission and I think that 15 Manitoba Hydro and NCN are both interested in trying 16 to assist her in answering the questions that she 17 had. I think they are questions that are important 18 to be raised and responded to. 19 So although they were rhetorical today and 20 they didn't give rise to us asking questions, we do 21 want to make sure that it's clear that we're looking 22 forward to trying to answer those questions. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Adkins. 24 I don't know if the lady is still in the room. I 25 presume so. Oh, yes. So I don't know if you've 3263 1 heard the comments. They are interested in providing 2 answers to the questions raised and hopefully you 3 will have the opportunity to appear at the hearings 4 in Winnipeg. 5 MS. NECKOWAY: Most definitely. I 6 will. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Would you 8 introduce yourself, sir, and then Mr. Grewar will 9 swear you in. 10 MR. FORTIN: My name is Keith Henry 11 Fortin. I was born August 31, 1967 in Fort 12 Churchill, Manitoba. 13 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Fortin, are you aware 14 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 15 mislead this Commission? 16 MR. FORTIN: I have no intention to 17 mislead anybody in this hearing, sir. 18 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 19 20 (KEITH FORTIN: SWORN) 21 22 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed. 23 MR. FORTIN: The reason I am here today 24 is to speak on environmental issues and concerns in 25 Northern Manitoba, not just in the areas of South 3264 1 Indian Lake, Nelson House, Split Lake but in a whole. 2 As we are aware, Hydro has different ways of 3 delivering hydroelectric energy to the people in the 4 north. One is either a land line coming into the 5 communities and spread out to the different homes, 6 the others are run independently on a fuel cell. And 7 that fuel is diesel, oils. 8 In order to get the diesel oils into these 9 communities, we have to build roads and this is one 10 thing that I am here for today. I build roads. 11 It's unfortunate that my father Henry John 12 Baptiste Thomas Fortin could not be here with me 13 today to sit beside me to speak on these things. As 14 he came from a place that is different than some 15 others, he was born in South Knife Lake in between 16 the Churchill River systems and the Seal River 17 systems. It was there that his father, a French man 18 from Quebec, and his grandmother, a full-blooded 19 Indian, Dene Indian from the Duck Lake post, resided 20 at South Knife and had all their children born on the 21 land. My father grew up with a dog sled team going 22 in places, collecting furs, harvesting to make a 23 living for his family. 24 In 1955/56, the Hudson Bay Company, Northwest 25 Companies pretty much stopped buying furs. Well, 3265 1 people were used to having this ability to sell their 2 furs so that they could go back into the wilderness 3 and do what they know how to do. 4 My father then moved from the Department of 5 National Defence in Churchill or the Department of 6 Public Works to Thompson to work as a first class 7 industrial mechanic with INCO. He then moved from 8 INCO or Thompson to South Indian Lake for the 9 relocation of the South Indian Lake and the community 10 under the Northern Flood Agreement and the Churchill 11 River Diversification project. 12 As a young child, 1975, I went from Thompson 13 to South Indian Lake and have witnessed the impacts 14 that have taken place as the projects come up from 15 starting to the opening of the Rat dam and the 16 channel ways. 17 When I went to South Indian in 1975, it was 18 possible to drive a vehicle across the lake to the 19 other side or a snowmobile for that matter. Today, 20 if you go there in December or February in the 21 coldest months, you will see the water is wide open 22 where you used to be able to drive a vehicle. 23 The relocation of the community and the 24 government's idea was to locate the community on the 25 other side of the river or other side of the lake 3266 1 which created the need for ferries and road building 2 across the ice in which to get to the communities. 3 As we see now today, we have built a new road 4 accessing the community but we are still across the 5 lake to the other side. 6 To relocate the people to the other side of 7 the lake, maybe because of the airport was being 8 built there, I'm not sure, it was still in front of 9 the same body of water that is being affected. My 10 father I mentioned the other day was a bush pilot in 11 Northern Manitoba for 45 years. And I have seen 12 South Indian Lake from the sky at low level flight. 13 I have seen the banks of the shorelines that are 14 inaccessible by foot in a lot of areas to go and 15 actually park your boat and get out and take your 16 kids out on the beach. Well, there's no beach there 17 no more. You might find some trees and stumps. 18 The fishing used to be grade A whitefish 19 coming out of South Indian Lake. And I'm pretty 20 sure, I'm safe to say, that maybe today it's more 21 like cutters and stuff like that. The grade of the 22 fish is gone. 23 Accessing and travelling on the ice, for 24 instance, in winter roads. In 1975/76, maybe '77, my 25 father was involved in building an overland route to 3267 1 Tadoule Lake to access fuel haul and freight hauling 2 into the community of Tadoule Lake as he was a Band 3 member with the Fort Churchill Band. 4 So over the years, we got involved in this. 5 There was different impacts and problems that arose 6 that we found were difficulties in the process of 7 building the roads on the ice. 8 With the fluctuating water levels moving up 9 and down in the winter, you have a solid ice base 10 pretty much set where it is. When you add water to 11 this, the water actually comes through the cracks and 12 then up on top of the ice and then causes a lot of 13 slushing to take place which creates extra weight on 14 top of the ice and more of an ability for it to 15 crack. 16 My experience from and statement from this 17 comes from being on the ice at South Indian Lake, 18 opening it up with a 72 John Deere BH grader 6 wheel 19 drive, a V-plow mowboard and wing. I have broken the 20 ice and had it shoot 25 feet in the air on either 21 side of me and had to literally stand on the outside 22 of the vehicle and steer it. Seven other graders 23 were -- well, actually six other graders were working 24 with us and it created quite a problem. 25 It was at this time that I asked my father, 3268 1 Tom Fortin, to look at building a new route which 2 would take the truckers off the ice, making it more 3 safer to deliver the fuel as well as the fuel that 4 spilled on the ice as your movement as well from 5 these trucks takes place when guys are stopping to 6 pump up their trucks and do whatever they do and they 7 lose a litre or lose two litres. 8 Well, this kind of thing can happen with a big 9 truck when they are travelling even in the bush. A 10 stick can come up and catch it. The next thing you 11 know, you've got fuel spillage on the ground for two 12 or three or four kilometres. And I witnessed this on 13 the new road that we built from Lynn Lake to Tadoule. 14 One of the reasons why I am addressing this is 15 because back in the bush, we're dropping fuel now 16 and we are glad it's not on the ice. But one of the 17 concerns was the fishing. My dad, one of the things 18 he told me was at the control gates at Missi Falls, 19 sometimes the fish go over the end and they are gone. 20 They can't get back up. The water and the pressure 21 is too much for them so they find a new place to 22 spawn and do their things. 23 My father was born and raised in the bush all 24 his life and experienced many problems even in the 25 development of the new winter road structures. 3269 1 We designed a program for Native people 2 thinking that we could bring it up to our people so 3 that they could have jobs. 4 A lot of things in reserves in our 5 communities, we do not have major industry which 6 creates a concern. Thompson has an industry. It's 7 got a mine, it's got things happening. When you come 8 into our communities, we don't have major industry. 9 So a lot of our people are not in the workforce. So 10 we have created this job to bring our people and 11 teach some people the basics on how to operate heavy 12 equipment, just to have the province turn around and 13 take the job away from us and give it to people from 14 down south. Which concerns me because here we tried 15 to do something for ourselves and we did a good job. 16 And I was even abandoned by a fellow in the 17 bush and a helicopter and left there to fend for 18 myself all alone, no other person to watch over me. 19 And a lot of the times when you're in the north, 20 these are the things you have to do by yourself. If 21 you're a young kid on a dog sled team going to check 22 your traps or if you're out there hunting to feed 23 your family, the resources and the ability for the 24 resources to be there and that we take care of them 25 together is why I'm here. 3270 1 The caribou and their migration, what type of 2 impacts may affect the caribou? If we build -- the 3 thing that scares me is the Seal River system. Are 4 we going to go beyond South Indian Lake, beyond the 5 Churchill River? Are we going to go into the rivers 6 and the only rivers that are left that are clean? 7 The last bit of the best water in the world is 8 sitting north of South Indian Lake, the Seal River, 9 the South Knife River. The Churchill River is gone. 10 I'm of Metis origin and my Band will be the 11 Fort Churchill Band and I'm of Dene Native ancestry. 12 And one thing I see is above our river, we have our 13 brothers and our neighbours flooded. And below our 14 river, we have depletion of the waters and the 15 abilities to do things there. But we're not even 16 mentioned to be here. 17 My concern is I have a family, a wife that I 18 love who is a member of the Nelson House First 19 Nation. All my children are treaty. My father was a 20 Status Indian, Bill C-31 and I am Metis. Go figure. 21 But I can live with this. I can live with being 22 outside of everybody else's conversations. I can 23 live with the broken promises of monies. I am also a 24 displaced resident of South Indian Lake. And one of 25 the reasons why I would say that is displaced is 3271 1 because the environment has been damaged to a point 2 where I cannot go out on the land and enjoy the 3 beauty of what it once was. 4 To relocate and put a place in the same across 5 the lake is questionable when there's so much other 6 beautiful water that the people could drink. 7 The low head dam creating less money but less 8 effects. We've already had the effect. Do we want 9 to make more money for our people and the rest of the 10 people involved or do we just want to get by? I see 11 something where there's a chance for people to work 12 together but you've got to realize that the 13 environment is what keeps us alive. And without it, 14 none of us would be here today. And the care of it 15 is what why I'm here. And I just wanted to make that 16 statement. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Questions? 18 Thank you very much. Mr. Fred Fitzner? I may have 19 mispronounced it. 20 MR. FITZNER: You sure did. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: You will put me straight 22 I am sure. Go ahead. 23 Gentlemen, will you introduce yourself and 24 then Mr. Grewar will swear you in. 25 MR. FITZNER: Fitzner. I guess first 3272 1 of all -- 2 MR. GREWAR: Excuse me, sir. Sorry, 3 could you spell the name, please? 4 MR. FITZNER: F-i-t-z-n-e-r. 5 MR. GREWAR: Thank you. Mr. Fitzner, 6 are you aware that it is an offence in Manitoba to 7 knowingly mislead this Commission? 8 MR. FITZNER: Yes, I do. 9 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 10 just the truth in proceedings before this Commission? 11 MR. FITZNER: To the best of my 12 knowledge. 13 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 14 15 (FRED FITZNER: SWORN) 16 17 MR. FITZNER: First of all, I'd like to 18 introduce myself, Fred Fitzner and my colleague here 19 is Henry Garrick. He is from Wabowden. We are from 20 the Wabowden Trappers Association. I am a commercial 21 fisherman and rely on the first body of water that 22 Mr. Miller had stated that run through the Grassy 23 River but forgot to tell, there was a few lakes that 24 runs through the Grassy River. And Hydro hasn't 25 touched upon that and I'm not sure they will never 3273 1 ever touch upon that lake. 2 And we just wrote something down pertaining to 3 Trapline 18 that they are saying Manitoba Hydro has 4 got an effect on that line. 5 We got something written up here, I will read. 6 You'll have to bear with my reading. I'll try to 7 read slow because I've only got a grade five 8 education so it will be slow for you. And my 9 colleague here, he won't be able to read his own. 10 And I'll try to read his for him. 11 He's got more education than me but he's got a 12 sore throat. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Could we get the name 14 correctly and spelled for your colleague? 15 MR. FITZNER: You mean Henry? 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 17 MR. FITZNER: Henry Garrick. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: How do you spell 19 Garrick? 20 MR. FITZNER: G-a-r-r-i-c-k. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 22 MR. FITZNER: Okay. This is a 23 presentation to the Clean Environment Commission on 24 Trapline 18. Introduction. My name is Fred Fitzner. 25 Somebody lied here. I'm 52 years old, it's got 51. 3274 1 I am 52 years old and a member of the OCN First 2 Nation. I was born in The Pas, raised in Wabowden. 3 I lived in Wabowden almost continuously -- well 4 continuously, not almost, since 1986. Before that, I 5 lived in Thompson, travelled to pursue my mining 6 career. I am the Vice-President of the Trappers 7 Association in the area of Wabowden. 8 I am here to give a presentation about some 9 statements being made about Trapline 18. 10 I learned about some of the statements being 11 made about Trapline 18 when I attended a public 12 meeting on the Wuskwatim project. I have reviewed 13 some of the statements made by the Trapline 18 14 witnesses. I do not believe the statements are 15 accurate and they give people the wrong impression 16 about the hunters and trappers and fishermen in the 17 Wabowden area. 18 I met with Marcel Moody and he and NCN 19 representatives asked if I would be willing to speak 20 to the Clean Environment Commission. Now here I am. 21 I am a commercial fisherman. I also trap, 22 hunt near Trapline 18. I have hunted on trapline -- 23 in the area of Trapline 18 for a number of years. 24 And I must state, I don't have it on here, that I 25 also trap with my buddy that's adjoining to Trapline 3275 1 18. I think it's Trapline 17. 2 The land in and around Trapline 18 consists of 3 forest areas, creeks, lakes, rocks, rocky areas and 4 swamp/muskeg. The land in Trapline 18 slopes down 5 from the tip of Trapline 18 in the north and southern 6 end. The water generally drains from the north to 7 the south. If you go further north past the northern 8 tip of Trapline 18 and then the land slopes down 9 north and the water drains in the opposite direction 10 to the north. 11 The northern tip of Trapline 18 is also -- is 12 mostly swamp and muskeg. In the years with a lot of 13 snow or rain, then the creek like Ferguson Creek will 14 flood and the water will move very quickly. 15 In dry years, Ferguson Creek will be very low. 16 The last couple of years have been drought years and 17 much of the area is currently overgrown with wild 18 rice because there has been very little water coming 19 from the upper areas. 20 The water levels and conditions in the area 21 change on a regular basis. In my experience, the 22 conditions change with weather. Hydro has nothing to 23 do with the changing water levels in the area. The 24 Trapline 18 area is higher than the area affected in 25 the Churchill River Diversion. So if there any -- so 3276 1 if there are changes in the water flows in the area, 2 it's because of changes in precipitation levels and 3 other natural conditions not because Hydro's 4 operation of the Hydro projects. 5 I have witnessed some conditions described in 6 Trapline 18 statements but those conditions are not 7 caused by Hydro projects. For example, I have seen 8 hanging ice that occurs from changing water levels. 9 In my experience, hanging ice is a natural occurrence 10 and is not necessarily caused by Hydro. 11 Hanging ice can be caused when water levels 12 are raised due to higher -- blah, blah, blah, blah -- 13 precipitation levels the summer and fall. 14 In the late fall and early winter, the water 15 then freezes and the surface continues to drain away 16 in the creek below the ice. This eventually causes 17 air space between ice and water which can be very 18 dangerous. 19 Hanging ice also can be caused by other 20 natural conditions such as beaver dams. I have 21 trapped in these areas where beaver dam up the creek 22 and cause the water levels to increase. In the 23 winter after the water is frozen, otter will 24 deliberately break the dams and drain the water. The 25 beavers -- break the dams to draw the beavers out to 3277 1 fix holes. When the beavers come out, the otter kill 2 the beaver. The beaver fails to fix the hole in the 3 dam and the water drains away causing hanging ice. 4 In my experience, slush is also a natural 5 occurrence. Sometimes slush ice occurs because more 6 levels drop and hanging ice occurs causing ice to 7 slope in the centre of the creek and crack. Water 8 then comes up from forms on top of the ice and forms 9 slush and snow. Slush ice also occurs when water 10 levels drop and the ice drops along the edge of the 11 creek and the water comes over top of the ice and 12 forms slush. 13 It is my experience that conditions such as 14 hanging ice and slush occurs frequently and naturally 15 in the areas where there is running water such as 16 Trapline 18. 17 Animal population. I have not seen drastic 18 decline in animal populations in the area of Trapline 19 18. There are many beavers in the area. In fact, 20 Conservation Officers are always asking us to trap 21 the beaver because there are too many of them. The 22 beaver numbers are high because nobody wants to trap 23 them anymore because the price of their pelts are too 24 low. 25 The number of animals in the area varies due 3278 1 to natural conditions. Woodland caribou are quite 2 low in number. One reason is they are easy prey for 3 wolves. This has been the cause for many years. At 4 one time, they were endangered but this is not 5 because of Hydro developments. 6 Thank you. 7 Well I guess we'll try it again. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you going to read 9 Mr. Garrick's? 10 MR. FITZNER: Mr. Garrick's statement, 11 yeah. He's not able to read it. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 13 MR. FITZNER: Introduction. My name is 14 Henry Garrick. I am 75 years old. I'm a member of 15 the Cross Lake First Nation. I was born and raised 16 in Wabowden and now live in Wabowden. I am the 17 President of the Trappers Association for the 18 Wabowden area. 19 I am here to give a presentation about some 20 statements being made about Trapline 18. 21 Background. I learned about some of the 22 statements being made on Trapline 18 when I attended 23 a public meeting on the Wuskwatim project. I have 24 reviewed some of the statements made by Trapline 18 25 witnesses. I do not believe some of the statements 3279 1 are accurate and they give people the wrong 2 impression about hunters, trappers and fishermen in 3 the Wabowden area. I met Marcel Moody and he and NCN 4 representatives asked if I would be willing to speak 5 to the Clean Environment Commission. 6 Trapline 18 knowledge. I currently trap on 7 Trapline 16, Trapline 16 just west of Trapline 18 in 8 the Ferguson Creek. And I have trapped in this area 9 for 60 years since 1944. 10 My father Roddy Garrick and my uncle 11 Wellington Beebe, they are two of the people 12 mentioned in the Trapline 18 witness statements. My 13 uncle used to have the rights to trap on -- no, my 14 uncle used to have the rights to Trapline 18 in the 15 1940s and the 1950s. And I trapped there with him 16 and my father when I was a teenager. I trapped on 17 the area called Trapline 18 from 1944 to 1951. I 18 also trapped on Trapline 16 and 17 when I was a 19 teenager. 20 I have seen the statements on Trapline 18 21 witnesses saying that Hydro causes changing water 22 levels and dangerous conditions. This is not true. 23 These conditions are natural. They were there 60 24 years ago before Hydro came. 25 The land in and around Trapline 18 is forested 3280 1 area, creeks, rocky areas and swamp/muskeg. The land 2 in Trapline 18 slopes down from the tip of Trapline 3 18 in the north to southern end. The water generally 4 drains from the north to south. If you go further 5 north, past the tip of Trapline 18 and the land 6 slopes down north and the water drains the opposite 7 direction to the north. 8 The northern tip of Trapline 18 is mostly 9 swamp and muskeg. In years with a lot of snow or 10 rain, then creeks like Ferguson Creek will flood and 11 the water will be moving very strongly. 12 In drought years, Ferguson Creek is very low. 13 The last couple of years have been drought years and 14 much of the area is currently overgrown with wild 15 rice because it has been very little water flowing 16 from the upper areas. 17 The water level and conditions in the area -- 18 the water levels and conditions in the area change on 19 a regular basis. The area has always been like this. 20 The conditions change with the weather. Hydro has 21 nothing to do with the changing water levels in that 22 area. 23 I have witnessed some of the conditions 24 described by Trapline 18 but these conditions are not 25 caused by Hydro projects. For example, I have seen 3281 1 hanging ice that occurs from changing water levels. 2 This always occurred. Hanging ice is a natural 3 occurrence and is naturally caused -- and is not 4 naturally caused by Hydro. 5 Hanging ice can be caused when water levels 6 are raised due to higher precipitation levels in the 7 summer and fall. In the late fall and early winter, 8 the water freezes on the surface and continues to 9 drain away in the creek below. This causes the air 10 space between the ice and the water which can be very 11 dangerous. 12 Slush ice is also a natural occurrence. 13 Sometimes less ice occurs because water levels drop 14 and hanging ice occurs causing ice to slope in the 15 centre and the creek to crack. Water comes up and 16 forms on top of the water -- on top of the ice and 17 forms slush with snow. Slush ice occurs when water 18 comes over the top and ice forms slush. Slush is -- 19 slush ice always occurred in that area long before 20 Hydro came. 21 These conditions always have occurred, always 22 occurred naturally in the areas where there's running 23 water such as Trapline 18. They can make trapping 24 and hunting dangerous. It has always been dangerous. 25 Waterways. I have never seen underground 3282 1 water -- I have never seen underground waterways or 2 rivers in Trapline 18 in the 60 years that I've been 3 trapping. I have never seen rivers connected to 4 Trapline 18 area to Nelson House. You can canoe from 5 Nelson House to Setting Lake but you have to take 6 portages. This is the way people used to go many 7 years -- used to go many years ago. And you can 8 still go there that way. Hydro has nothing -- Hydro 9 has done nothing to change this. Some of the 10 portages might be grown in with bush growth now. 11 Some of the portages must be fully grown now. 12 Animal population. I have not seen a drastic 13 decline in animal population in Trapline 18. There 14 are many beavers in the area. In fact, Conservation 15 are always asking us to trap the beavers because 16 there are too many of them. The beaver numbers are 17 high because nobody wants to trap them anymore 18 because the prices are too low. The number of 19 animals in that area, in the area always changed due 20 to natural conditions. This always happened in the 21 past 60 years, the last 60 years. And don't ask me 22 no questions. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Fitzner 24 and Mr. Garrick. The gentlemen just said they 25 weren't prepared to answer any questions. 3283 1 MR. MCIVOR: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, 2 this morning there was also another presenter that 3 was asked questions when they -- 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fitzner, just don't 5 go too fast. 6 MR. FITZNER: Okay. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. McIvor. 8 MR. MCIVOR: Mr. Fitzner, you indicated 9 your education level is grade five? 10 MR. FITZNER: I would say one more 11 year. I think it's grade six. 12 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. Mr. Garrick? Five, 13 ten? 14 MR. GARRICK: Nothing. 15 MR. FITZNER: Plasticine class I guess. 16 MR. MCIVOR: I'm not going to ask too 17 many questions, gentlemen. I think the concerns I 18 have will be addressed to the NCN membership in terms 19 of this process. But you know, you made some 20 comments regarding your experience, Mr. Fitzner, with 21 Trapline 18. When did you trap on Trapline 18? 22 MR. FITZNER: I trapped with Ken Foray 23 on Trapline 17 adjoining that Trapline 18. And I do 24 believe this trapline takes in about a mile or so of 25 that Ferguson Creek that you guys are stating that 3284 1 floods all the time. And if you look at the trapline 2 map very carefully, the cabin that's at the Goose 3 Falls is on Trapline 17. 4 MR. MCIVOR: Actually it's on Trapline 5 16 or Wellington's old trapline. It ends at Goose 6 Falls. I did ask you if you trapped on Trapline 18, 7 not Trapline 17. 8 MR. FITZNER: No, no. I didn't trap on 9 Trapline 18. 10 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. Thank you. 11 MR. FITZNER: That's the same body of 12 water that Trapline 17 is on. I'll let you know 13 that. 14 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. Thank you. You 15 mentioned a number of items regarding hydrology on 16 Trapline 18 regarding -- 17 MR. FITZNER: Say what? 18 MR. MCIVOR: Hydrology. 19 MR. FITZNER: Use that in simpler 20 terms. 21 MR. MCIVOR: Well, you used 22 precipitation and slushing and hanging ice, water 23 flows this way and that way. What experience do you 24 have in terms of hydrology? 25 MR. FITZNER: What do you mean? 3285 1 MR. MCIVOR: If you've never trapped on 2 Trapline 18? 3 MR. FITZNER: Well, I didn't say I 4 trapped on there. I went hunting a lot of times up 5 at Ferguson Creek for many years. 6 MR. MCIVOR: Oh, okay. 7 MR. FITZNER: You're forgetting I was 8 born and raised in that area. 9 MR. MCIVOR: Yeah. And you left when 10 to go work in mining? 11 MR. FITZNER: I left to go mining when 12 I was 17. 13 MR. MCIVOR: What year was that? 14 MR. FITZNER: Oh, that would be '72. 15 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. 16 MR. FITZNER: '71, '72. 17 MR. MCIVOR: Fred, where did your dad 18 fish? 19 MR. FITZNER: My dad fished in Setting 20 Lake. 21 MR. MCIVOR: When did he quit fishing 22 on Setting Lake? 23 MR. FITZNER: Ah, gee whiz, I couldn't 24 even answer because I don't know when he quit 25 fishing. 3286 1 MR. MCIVOR: How many other fisherman 2 were on Setting Lake when your dad was fishing? 3 MR. FITZNER: I would say there was one 4 main fisherman that was the buyer. That was old 5 Jonasson. I'm not talking about Alec Jonasson, I'm 6 talking about his dad. 7 MR. MCIVOR: Did they have a packing 8 plant on Setting Lake back then when your dad was 9 fishing? 10 MR. FITZNER: They sure did. 11 MR. MCIVOR: Where do you think the 12 fish came from that your dad was fishing? 13 MR. FITZNER: Where did it come from? 14 MR. MCIVOR: Yeah. 15 MR. FITZNER: The water I hope. 16 MR. MCIVOR: Yeah. Well, which body of 17 water? What water? Was it from Split Lake or was it 18 from Moose Lake? Was it from Saskatchewan River? 19 MR. FITZNER: Well, I think it was from 20 Split Lake. The water -- the fish would be going 21 backwards, wouldn't it. 22 MR. MCIVOR: I would think so, too. 23 MR. FITZNER: Well, you know yourself 24 that you are asking me a question where the fish are 25 coming from. There are 30 some miles of lake there 3287 1 and where would you think the fish come from? If the 2 packing plant was right on the shore line, where 3 would you think the fish were coming from? 4 MR. MCIVOR: Whitewood Falls, there's a 5 spawning ground there. Ferguson Creek or Goose 6 Falls, there's a spawning ground there. In between 7 just south of Henry's cabin towards Whitewood, 8 there's a creek off the side to a lake that has 9 spawning. What kind of fish would spawn in that 10 area? What kind were your dad catching? 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a minute, please. 12 I'm not so sure this is relevant to the presentation. 13 MR. MCIVOR: Well, I think it is. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not so sure you're 15 wanting to find out where his fishing ground is. In 16 the process, you might give the secrets of where your 17 fishing grounds are. After a while, he'll be fishing 18 your fish and you'll be fishing his fish. 19 MR. MCIVOR: Well, no, I don't think 20 so. I think Mr. Mayer's canoe trips down the Grassy 21 River, he knows all the fishing areas anyway. 22 MR. MAYER: I don't know where the 23 fishing areas are but I certainly know Whitewood 24 Falls doesn't have anything to do with the project 25 we're talking about. 3288 1 MR. MCIVOR: Excuse me. 2 MR. FITZNER: That's why I stated 3 that's one of the last places Hydro is. There's 4 nothing there that contains -- involves Hydro. And 5 let me ask you a question now. 6 MR. MCIVOR: Sure. 7 MR. FITZNER: Where does Ferguson's 8 Creek flow into? 9 MR. MCIVOR: It flows from east of 10 Nelson House. There's a Ferguson Creek on the east 11 side from Threepoint Lake that flows through to Goose 12 Falls and Rosenberry Lake area. 13 MR. FITZNER: I'm asking you where does 14 it dump into? 15 MR. MCIVOR: It dumps into Goose Falls. 16 MR. FITZNER: No, it doesn't. It dumps 17 into Setting Lake and it dumps into Paqua (ph) Lake. 18 You must remember if we had a claim -- if you had a 19 claim, we'd have a claim too because that would be 20 affecting our area. 21 MR. MCIVOR: You just said the cabin 22 was situated on a different trapline. Ferguson Creek 23 flows to Goose Falls where our cabin is. And from 24 Goose Falls, Ferguson Creek flows to the Grassy River 25 which flows into Setting Lake. 3289 1 MR. FITZNER: Now you got it right. 2 MR. MCIVOR: No, I've always had it 3 right. I am just asking you, sir. You seem to be an 4 expert up there. I mean you never got back to 5 Wabowden until when, 1986? 6 MR. FITZNER: I wouldn't say that. I 7 have been in Wabowden all my life. I have lived in 8 Thompson here for 10 years, it's only an hour away. 9 And I'll tell you when I had my two weeks off, I went 10 commercial fishing. I've never ever left that 11 country. 12 MR. MCIVOR: How long had you been 13 trapping, how many years? 14 MR. FITZNER: How many years I've been 15 trapping now? Oh, I could remember catching my first 16 flesh crab when I was about eight years old. 17 MR. MCIVOR: How long have you held a 18 licence, trapper's or a registered trapper's licence? 19 MR. FITZNER: I've held a registered 20 trap -- I would have to look in the record because 21 I'd be lying if I told you a year. But I've been 22 trapping off and on since I was a kid and I started 23 full time trapping when I come back from Ontario in 24 1986. I got back involved in it. 25 MR. MCIVOR: So in that year, you 3290 1 learned that due to water fluctuations and beaver 2 dams, that otters do this and everything else? 3 MR. FITZNER: No. I have learned that 4 all my life. I have been trapping all my life, Greg, 5 and you know that. 6 MR. MCIVOR: I was just asking the 7 question. 8 MR. FITZNER: Well, I'm answering for 9 you. 10 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. Since Henry can't 11 talk, I don't think it will be appropriate to ask him 12 any questions. But in terms of the Trappers 13 Association, you are the Vice-Chairman? 14 MR. FITZNER: That's right, yeah. 15 MR. MCIVOR: And Henry is the Chairman? 16 MR. FITZNER: That's right. 17 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. Was there any 18 direct consultation with all trappers in Wabowden 19 that you are aware of? 20 MR. FITZNER: On what? 21 MR. MCIVOR: Well, on what you just -- 22 comments you just made? 23 MR. FITZNER: Yes, there is. And what 24 I was ashamed of that you dragged us into this 25 without even consulting with the trappers up in that 3291 1 area. 2 MR. MCIVOR: I didn't drag anybody into 3 anything. 4 MR. FITZNER: Oh, yes you did when you 5 start making accusations about the Wabowden area, you 6 dragged us into it. 7 MR. MCIVOR: I didn't drag you into 8 anything. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, gentlemen. 10 MR. MCIVOR: I just asked a question on 11 consultation. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, you had your 13 answer. I think we're getting off the topic. 14 MR. MCIVOR: Well, no, I don't think 15 so, Mr. Chairman. Manitoba Hydro and NCN -- 16 THE CHAIRMAN: What I see is you're 17 having a little debate here and having a discussion. 18 MR. MCIVOR: I'm just asking a question 19 on consultation. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: He answered. 21 MR. MCIVOR: If they had consultation, 22 was it with who and who initiated the consultation? 23 THE CHAIRMAN: He said that you did. 24 MR. MCIVOR: Well, I'm not Manitoba 25 Hydro or NCN. 3292 1 THE CHAIRMAN: No, but you discussed it 2 and he said you brought him into it. 3 MR. MCIVOR: Well, I didn't do that. I 4 want to apologize if I did. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: I think maybe, 6 gentlemen, you'll get an opportunity to sit down and 7 have a further discussion on these issues. We shall 8 have a 15 minute break. We'll be back here at five 9 to 3:00. 10 11 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 2:41 P.M. 12 AND RECONVENED AT 3:00 P.M.) 13 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Please take your place. 15 We, as two-legged animals, have a tendency of 16 getting tired very quickly, therefore, it is time 17 we find a chair so we can get comfortable to carry 18 on here. 19 I call upon Mr. Leslie Baker. 20 Mr. Leslie Baker -- he is still outside, we will 21 pass on him and we will come back. 22 Mr. Jim Stewart, he is slated to be in 23 a little while. 24 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Stewart is actually 25 here. I think we do have people that are outside, 3293 1 because I know Mr. Baker is here and I know that 2 Mr. Stewart is hear. Perhaps just another moment, 3 and while we are waiting, Mr. Chairman, we do have 4 an exhibit or two that we can enter. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr. Grewar, 6 would you do that, and then I will call the names 7 afterwards. 8 MR. GREWAR: If we could enter as 9 exhibit OTH-1009, the presentation to the Clean 10 Environment Commission on Trapline # 18 as 11 presented by Fred Fitzner, that is OTH-1009. 12 13 (EXHIBIT OTH-1009: Presentation to 14 Clean Environment Commission on 15 Trapline # 18 as presented by Fred 16 Fitzner) 17 18 MR. GREWAR: And presentation to the 19 Clean Environment Commission on Trapline # 18 as 20 presented by Henry Garrick as OTH-1010. 21 22 (EXHIBIT OTH-1010: Presentation to 23 the Clean Environment Commission on 24 Trapline # 18 as presented by Henry 25 Garrick) 3294 1 2 MR. GREWAR: I will distribute copies 3 of those. 4 This is Mr. Baker now, Mr. Chairman. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Sir, would 6 you introduce yourself? 7 MR. L. BAKER: Good afternoon, my name 8 is Leslie Baker. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar. 10 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Baker, are you aware 11 that it is offence in Manitoba to knowingly 12 mislead this Commission? 13 MR. L. BAKER: Yes. 14 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 15 just the truth in the proceedings before this 16 Commission? 17 MR. L. BAKER: Yes. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Proceed, sir. 19 MR. L. BAKER: My name is Leslie 20 Baker. I am a displaced resident from Footprint 21 Lake, Baker's Point. I reside in Granville Lake, 22 community of Granville Lake. I would like to 23 thank the CEC for the opportunity to speak. I am 24 hear representing myself as an individual, and I 25 am only speaking on behalf of my family. 3295 1 I am a resource user within the area 2 affected by the Churchill River Diversion. I took 3 my trapline block over from my father in the early 4 '70s. My trapline is severely impacted by the 5 Churchill River Diversion and the augmented flow 6 program. 7 My family has trouble to continue our 8 traditions and practice within the environmental 9 disaster that is known as the Churchill River 10 Diversion. Examples of some of our traditions and 11 practices are hunting, medicinal plant gathering, 12 recreational travel, and being one with the land. 13 The flooding and the continued water 14 fluctuations caused by the CRD and the augmented 15 flow program continue to have extreme 16 environmental and social consequences in our area. 17 We have been scarred deeply by the development of 18 the Churchill River Diversion. For the last 30 19 years, I have carried around a profound burden 20 within me. Our land is hurting due to the 21 environmental impacts of hydro development. 22 Myself, as an Aboriginal person, are one with the 23 land, the same as part of your heart or your legs 24 are part of you. If you were slowly to lose the 25 function of either, you would know the loss of the 3296 1 land on us. For the past 30 years, it has taken a 2 toll on my family and me. This environmental 3 disaster called hydro development has had and 4 continues to have an adverse impact on us, Mother 5 Earth, and my family. My family perceives 6 Manitoba Hydro as a bully who has pushed us 7 around. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a minute, sir. 9 Can I ask that the people in the back, please, if 10 they have to speak to one another, to do so, so 11 that I cannot hear them. Thank you. 12 MR. L. BAKER: For the last 30 13 years -- this has to stop. The free reign to 14 damage our environment without agreements has to 15 stop. We were in the area pre-CRD. We were not 16 consulted on the CRD or the augmented flow 17 program, and it has been 30 years, and we are 18 still fighting to have closure. 19 I have concerns of the Wuskwatim 20 process and its communication with the inhabitants 21 of Granville Lake. Like many people in Northern 22 Manitoba, my family members do not have the money 23 or the means to go places where consultation was 24 done. Granville Lake is remote and there is no 25 communication within us in regards to consultation 3297 1 of Wuskwatim, even though we are connected to the 2 CRD. 3 The CRD and the augmented flow program 4 still have many unresolved and outstanding issues 5 concerning environmental impacts, social impacts, 6 economic impacts, outstanding compensation and 7 settlement, and consultation issues surrounding 8 the annual renewal of the augmented flow program. 9 This is where I have to comment on the 10 future development called Wuskwatim. I would like 11 to put a motion to the floor that CEC stop these 12 proceedings until a time that the long standing 13 issue -- the long standing issues surrounding the 14 past CRD development and augmented flow programs 15 are resolved. 16 I strongly believe that the process 17 must have a look at the past hydro developments 18 and ensure that Manitoba Hydro has resolutions of 19 all outstanding claims or past developments before 20 they are granted approval for the future 21 development. 22 I would like to thank you for this 23 opportunity to do my presentation. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Baker. 25 Are you presently under negotiation in regard to a 3298 1 particular claim with Hydro? 2 MR. L. BAKER: Yes, we are. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Are you aware 4 that the -- you made reference numerous times to 5 the augmented flow program, and I assume that you 6 are aware that that is not anything that is 7 proposed as a change in regards to the proposed 8 project? Is that correct? 9 MR. L. BAKER: That's correct. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I just wanted to 11 ask those questions. Thank you. 12 I see no further questions, Mr. 13 Baker -- sorry, Mr. Nepinak has a question. 14 MR. NEPINAK: Mr. Baker, were you 15 present last night when the NCN First Nations made 16 a presentation on the Power Point about the 17 project? 18 MR. L. BAKER: I got in last night 19 around 9:30. 20 MR. NEPINAK: Then you didn't see the 21 presentation. 22 MR. L. BAKER: No, I didn't. 23 MR. NEPINAK: Okay. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adkins. 25 MR. ADKINS: Mr. Baker had previously 3299 1 been up, and I think in fact had been sworn at 2 that point in time. He had responded to the 3 questions that we would have. I don't want to 4 repeat those questions, and I am assuming that 5 that would apply to this testimony? 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Correct. 7 MR. ADKINS: Thank you. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: No questions. Thank 9 you, Mr. Baker. 10 MR. L. BAKER: The only other thing I 11 have is, I was at one time compensated for damage 12 in my trapline, but I have been cut off on my 13 compensation for the past seven years. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: But you still have, or 15 are currently under -- 16 MR. L. BAKER: I was under the 17 agreement, or the compensation from Nelson House. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: But there is currently, 19 you are currently involved in negotiations? 20 MR. L. BAKER: I am involved in 21 negotiations, yes. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I thank you 23 very much. 24 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, we have a 25 different individual who will be presenting on 3300 1 behalf of the North Central Development, it will 2 not be Jim Stewart, it will be Tim Johnston. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar. 4 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Johnston, are you 5 aware that it is an offence in Manitoba to 6 knowingly mislead this Commission? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes. 8 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 9 only the truth in proceedings before this 10 Commission? 11 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes. 12 13 TIM JOHNSTON: SWORN 14 15 MR. JOHNSTON: Good afternoon, my name 16 is Tim Johnston. I am the manager of the North 17 Central Community Futures Development Corporation, 18 operating and better known as North Central 19 Development. It is my pleasure, on behalf of the 20 board of directors of North Central Development 21 and Chairperson Glen Flett to have the opportunity 22 to speak to you today regarding the proposed 23 development of the Wuskwatim Generating Station 24 and the related transmission facilities. 25 I, along with Chairperson Flett, had 3301 1 the opportunity to observe the proceedings in 2 Winnipeg last week, and I was also able to attend 3 briefly in Thompson yesterday. The discussions 4 taking place are important to the long-term 5 sustainable economic development in Northern 6 Manitoba, and the opportunity to present today is 7 welcome and appreciated. 8 From our perspective, as a community 9 economic development organization based in the 10 north, with experience working in the north with 11 the people who live in the north, the path forward 12 is and will be challenging. But if pursued in the 13 proper manner, it can be a cornerstone in the 14 foundation for a new model of community economic 15 development in the north. 16 First, let me provide you with a short 17 description of North Central Development and 18 highlight some of our achievements, in both 19 business and community development in the region. 20 North Central Development began 21 operation in the spring of 1997, supported 22 initially in large part by Western Economic 23 Diversification Canada. The Province of Manitoba 24 has contributed support from a number of 25 departments as well. 3302 1 North Central Development is a 2 community based initiative designed to enhance 3 community and economic development in the north 4 central region of Manitoba. A volunteer board of 5 directors representing each of our 17 member 6 communities provides direction to the management 7 of the corporation. The corporation provides 8 services to and assists with the delivery of 9 programs in each of the 17 communities. These 10 Northern Manitoba communities include three urban 11 industrial, seven Northern Affairs, and seven 12 First Nations stretching from Norway House in the 13 south to Churchill in the north, following the 14 Hudson Bay railway, or more traditionally the 15 Burntwood, Grass River, and Nelson River systems. 16 The area encompasses 138,000 square kilometres 17 with a population of approximately 35,000 people. 18 North Central Development's mission 19 statement is to endeavor to bring together to 20 support, develop and promote communities, 21 individuals, organizations, businesses, and other 22 appropriate stakeholders within the North Central 23 region to encourage self-reliance and enhance the 24 social and economic quality of life. 25 In order to meet our stated mission 3303 1 statement, North Central Development operates 2 aggressively in an entrepreneurial manner being 3 proactive and partnership driven. Over the past 4 six years, a number of programs and initiatives 5 have been implemented in both community and 6 business development that have created long-term 7 sustainable impacts on the economic environment of 8 the region. 9 Some community development initiatives 10 include the integrated waste management program 11 offered in a variety of northern communities, an 12 annual youth Entrepreneur Summer Camp, an 13 Entrepreneurs with Disabilities program, the 14 transfer of the Thompson Regional Airport, the 15 creation of the Churchill North Gateway Council, 16 the Northern E-Business Centre, as well as the 17 Discover Manitoba Tourism Conference and Expo. 18 The corporation relies upon its well 19 established network of partnerships to accomplish 20 proposed projects, as well as looking at 21 opportunities to develop new initiatives. 22 North Central Development is also 23 active in business development, acting as a lender 24 of last resort. Individuals and businesses who 25 would normally not qualify for a business loan 3304 1 through traditional financial institutions are the 2 targeted clients of North Central Development with 3 a variety of loan funds available. North Central 4 Development currently has 142 loans outstanding 5 for small business start-ups or expansion, ranging 6 in size from $500 peer lending circle loans in the 7 Tataskweyak Cree Nation to loans of approximately 8 $100,000. With an original principal of over $2.5 9 million, the corporation has maintained a loan 10 loss rate of approximately 8 percent, well under 11 the normal rate for developmental lenders. At 12 least 250 jobs have been created or maintained as 13 a result of these new business start-ups. 14 In addition to business loans, North 15 Central Development provides and is involved in 16 the following programs and services. We assisted 17 in the expansion of the Ford Motor Company's 18 winter weather testing program in Thompson. We 19 deliver the self-employment assistance program on 20 behalf of the Province of Manitoba throughout the 21 north. We deliver the Junior Achievement program 22 in the north, and we deliver Aboriginal Business 23 Canada programming in the north. 24 North Central's combined experiences 25 in business and community development provide an 3305 1 unique perspective on the current state of 2 economic development in the central and northern 3 part of the Province. 4 North Central Development sees a 5 region that needs to look to change, a region 6 where the old way of doing things is no longer the 7 only acceptable option. New ways and new models 8 must be identified and initiated. In doing so, a 9 measure of respect must be extended to all 10 involved and all of the opinions put forward. 11 The development of the Wuskwatim 12 Generating Station and Transmission Lines provides 13 Northern Manitoba with an opportunity to learn 14 from past experience and create a new model for 15 economic development. Past experience has taught 16 us that the future must be built on honesty, 17 trust, partnerships, and mutual benefits, where 18 the traditional economy cannot be discounted at 19 any or all costs in favour of an industrial 20 economy, where the benefits accrued must be true 21 and equal. 22 The previous models for hydro 23 development have not provided such an environment 24 in Northern Manitoba. The proposed Wuskwatim 25 project, and more importantly, the Agreement in 3306 1 Principle between Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation and 2 Manitoba Hydro, gives Northern Manitoba the 3 opportunity to create a new model of community 4 economic development, a model that can provide 5 training, jobs, and business opportunities. 6 However, it must be pointed out that the success 7 of this project for Northern Manitoba will not be 8 the building of a dam at the end of the day, but 9 whether the "can" becomes "will" in the 10 achievement and realization of the potential of 11 the dam in supporting a lasting sustainable legacy 12 and benefits. 13 Training must be relevant and create a 14 skilled work force that can meet the long-term 15 needs of a region that currently has a large 16 unemployed population, yet suffers from a lack of 17 skilled labour. The training needs to be 18 meaningful, respectful, and provide hope to our 19 youth that the future can be different than the 20 present. Training cannot only be a cost of doing 21 business. Jobs for our youth and work force must 22 be respectful and provide opportunities for 23 advancement. They can not be token or designed to 24 meet quotas. Northern Manitoba needs to appeal to 25 and retain our youth with job opportunities. 3307 1 Business opportunities must be real 2 and sustainable. North Central Development has 3 embarked on the study of financial assistance of 4 Aboriginal Business Canada that will identify 5 sustainable Aboriginal businesses and hydro 6 opportunities. 7 I will acknowledge the support of 8 Manitoba Hydro in assisting the research team in 9 compiling data for the study. 10 Initial findings point to specific 11 business opportunities as a result of the project, 12 and more importantly, using the project to 13 initiate business starts that can then become 14 sustainable based on an emerging service economy 15 in the north. 16 Of course, a critical element to this 17 project is the proposed partnership between NCN 18 and Manitoba Hydro with respect to an equity 19 portion of the Wuskwatim project. This is central 20 to a new model of economic development in the 21 north. This has the opportunity to change the 22 face of the economics in the north, to create an 23 ownership stake that will provide benefits for 24 generations, to create a partnership with a true 25 sense of sharing resources and rewards. 3308 1 In achieving the above, we can 2 establish a healthy environment for human and 3 economic growth that can benefit the people of the 4 north now and into the future. 5 North Central Development believes 6 this project presents the best and most realistic 7 opportunity to provide a chance, a golden 8 opportunity, to enhance training throughout the 9 region that will be of benefit to all northerners 10 and to all Manitobans. It provides real tangible 11 action in creating employment for the north in a 12 meaningful, respectful, and sustainable way. It 13 provides the environment to promote 14 entrepreneurial activities as well as assisting 15 the entrepreneurs that can attribute to long-term 16 wealth generation in the north. 17 Most importantly for North Central 18 Development, this project presents the opportunity 19 to move the north away from the models of a social 20 transfer economy and an industrial economy towards 21 a model of a wealth generation economy, and 22 largely based on the emerging Aboriginal economy 23 in the north. What we see is a chance to build 24 more than a dam. We see a chance at a true and 25 honest commitment to the people of the north. We 3309 1 see a chance to work within a process of 2 development based on economic need, social growth, 3 and the advancement of human potential. 4 The arguments against the project are 5 many. They vary from the theoretical to the 6 esoteric. We have neither the background nor the 7 desire to dispute numbers or debate. What we do 8 have is firsthand knowledge of the positive impact 9 this project can represent to the north. Up here 10 this project can represent opportunities that will 11 change the daily living environment of whole 12 communities. Training a work force to develop 13 marketable skills is not a theory, it will help 14 northerners. Building infrastructure where so 15 much is needed is not esoteric, it will help 16 northerners. 17 North Central Development's mission is 18 to help the people of our region to achieve 19 sustainable economic growth, while building strong 20 and viable communities. We see this project as a 21 substantial and positive step in achieving that 22 mission. 23 North Central Development applaud the 24 Province of Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro on this 25 consultative process. We are in complete support 3310 1 of Manitoba Hydro's cooperative development model 2 with the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation in Nelson 3 House. Thank you. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, 5 Mr. Johnston. Any questions? 6 MS. AVERY KINEW: I have one. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Avery Kinew. 8 MS. AVERY KINEW: Mr. Johnston, I just 9 wondered, you said you did a research report that 10 was supported by Manitoba Hydro about employment. 11 Is this the report, the executive summary? 12 MR. JOHNSTON: Are in process of 13 completing the report now. The report was 14 supported financially by Aboriginal Business 15 Canada, to identify specific opportunities for 16 Aboriginal youth in the north. Our research team, 17 comprised of Neil Loughran out of Winnipeg and 18 Murray Harvey from The Pas, have been compiling 19 data, and they contacted Manitoba Hydro who did 20 provide some of the specifics with respect to 21 spending on the dam construction and what that may 22 mean for entrepreneurs to look at starting a 23 business around the project. 24 MS. AVERY KINEW: The research is 25 supported by Aboriginal Business Canada. 3311 1 MR. JOHNSTON: Aboriginal Business 2 Canada. 3 MS. AVERY KINEW: And the methodology 4 was interviewing youth and compiling statistics? 5 MR. JOHNSTON: It was looking at 6 statistics, it was interviewing former Aboriginal 7 owned businesses that have worked on previous 8 projects, and current Aboriginal businesses, 9 including looking at the Aboriginal Business 10 Registry that has been developed by Northern 11 economic development agencies and is currently 12 being developed by the Province of Manitoba. 13 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you. When 14 would the report be ready? 15 MR. JOHNSTON: That is a good 16 question. We are looking at hopefully by June the 17 30th that we will have that report. 18 MS. AVERY KINEW: And is it public 19 right away? 20 MR. JOHNSTON: We will be making that 21 available to certainly communities in the North 22 Central region and Northern Manitoba, and will be 23 promoting the opportunities in our consultation 24 and working with Aboriginal entrepreneurs in the 25 North, so we will make it available. 3312 1 MS. AVERY KINEW: Do you think as a 2 result of this you will be offering different 3 programs or changes in the Aboriginal Business 4 Canada approach, you deliver Aboriginal Business 5 Canada programs here? 6 MR. JOHNSTON: Correct. I think that 7 what hopefully this will do is identify some 8 specific opportunities. One of the challenges 9 that we faced in Northern Manitoba is encouraging 10 youth to look at entrepreneurial opportunities. 11 And hopefully what this will do is provide us with 12 a basis of saying, these are some of the 13 opportunities that you can look at, in terms of 14 some of the projects that are happening in the 15 north. 16 MS. AVERY KINEW: Have you involved 17 youth, or had workshops, focus groups, or do you 18 intend to when the report comes out? 19 MR. JOHNSTON: We would likely intend 20 to work with youth groups when we have the report 21 completed. The research has interviewed largely 22 Aboriginal businesses, not specifically the youth. 23 In addition to that, just to note that we just 24 finished sending two Aboriginal youth that are 25 currently in business to Toronto for an Aboriginal 3313 1 Canada session on looking at opportunities, 2 strategic opportunities. So we will consult with 3 youth, there is no question. 4 MS. AVERY KINEW: How do you define 5 youth? I know every department has a different 6 age group. 7 MR. JOHNSTON: Youth for Aboriginal 8 Canada right now is looking upwards of I believe 9 32 years old, so you would be looking at 18 to 10 your early 30s. 11 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you. 12 MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Yes, sir. 14 MR. NIJSSEN: My name is Leo Nijssen, 15 N-I-J-S-S-E-N for the record. I am a professor at 16 Brandon University. 17 To some extent, Ms. Kinew's questions 18 sort of anticipated mine. When you spoke, you 19 said that you had a research team assisted by 20 Manitoba Hydro. And my question is, precisely 21 what sort of assistance was afforded to your 22 research team by Manitoba Hydro? 23 MR. JOHNSTON: Just for the record, 24 just to be clear, what the sentence was, is North 25 Central Development has embarked on a study with 3314 1 the financial assistance of Aboriginal Business 2 Canada that will identify sustainable Aboriginal 3 businesses and Hydro opportunities. I will 4 acknowledge the support of Manitoba Hydro in 5 assisting the research team in compiling data for 6 the study. Our individuals, Neil Loughran, the 7 author of the study, supported by Murray Harvey 8 from The Pas, have contacted representatives of 9 Manitoba Hydro for details respecting the project 10 to come with Wuskwatim; for example, looking at 11 the construction phase, what type of products 12 would be purchased, what that would mean for 13 potential suppliers and things like that. So I 14 want to be very clear, the financial support was 15 from Aboriginal Business Canada, the assistance to 16 the research team was in providing data only. 17 MR. NIJSSEN: So Manitoba Hydro didn't 18 provide financial support, but they provided data 19 to a statistical survey? 20 MR. JOHNSTON: They provided 21 interviews that will help with the development of 22 the survey. 23 MR. NIJSSEN: So to that extent, the 24 assistance of Manitoba Hydro is going to be 25 reflected in the conclusions at the end of the 3315 1 day? 2 MR. JOHNSTON: I would suggest that it 3 would be acknowledged that interviews were held 4 with Manitoba Hydro in the development of the 5 report. 6 MR. NIJSSEN: Thank you. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. Any 8 further questions? 9 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 10 enter the presentation as OTH-1011, North Central 11 Development presentation to Manitoba Clean 12 Environment Commission, OTH-1011. 13 14 (EXHIBIT OTH-1011: North Central 15 Development presentation to Manitoba 16 Clean Environment Commission) 17 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 19 MR. DYSART: If I may, Mr. Chairman, a 20 point of clarity. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. 22 MR. DYSART: Leslie Dysart, Northern 23 Manitoban, South Indian Laker, NCN band member. 24 Two past presenters, Leslie Baker and William 25 Anderson, presented motions to the floor. I am 3316 1 just wondering, as a participant, how those 2 motions will be dealt with, if at all? 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, I heard that there 4 was the word "motion" used. I did not take that 5 to be an official motion. It is a request that 6 Hydro take that into consideration in the 7 preparation of its report. 8 MR. DYSART: I would maybe suggest if 9 you could ask presenters if that is what they 10 intended? 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I will discuss 12 that with my fellow colleagues on the panel, and 13 we will get back to this issue. 14 MR. DYSART: Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 16 MR. MAYER: Mr. Chairman, I think we 17 should remind people here that, generally 18 speaking, you don't take a verbal motion out of a 19 presentation, and it has been the pretty 20 consistent practice of this Commission and this 21 panel that when formal motions are being brought, 22 they are brought in writing, separate from the 23 presentation made by people here. So although we 24 will discuss this, I think you should understand 25 that is the procedure we have followed from day 3317 1 one. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I will now 3 call upon Mr. Bill Comaskey. Mr. Grewar, would 4 you proceed with the swearing in of Mr. Comaskey? 5 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Comaskey, are you 6 aware that it is an offence in Manitoba to 7 knowingly mislead this Commission? 8 MR. COMASKEY: Yes, I am. 9 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 10 only the truth in proceedings before this 11 Commission? 12 MR. COMASKEY: Yes, I do. 13 14 BILL COMASKEY: SWORN 15 16 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed. 17 MR. COMASKEY: Mr. Chairman, 18 Commission, ladies and gentlemen, as Mayor of the 19 City of Thompson, I would like to welcome you to 20 our community and to Northern Manitoba. 21 Thompson is third largest city in the 22 Province, culturally diverse, offers all of the 23 amenities any major city enjoys, and has the 24 potential for further greatness. We are 25 strategically located in the heart of the Province 3318 1 of Manitoba, centred in the middle of the North 2 Central Trade Corridor that originates in Mexico, 3 runs through the central United States, through 4 Thompson, into Churchill, and on to Eastern 5 Europe. 6 We once depended heavily on the non 7 renewable resource of mining. We now see our 8 future in diversification. With the advent of the 9 Northern University College, the potential to 10 establish Thompson as a transportation 11 redistribution centre, being a service centre for 12 a populace of approximately 60,000 people living 13 in our trading area, we are excited about future 14 hydro development. 15 The reason why I am here today is to 16 express our support for hydroelectric development 17 projects in Northern Manitoba, more specifically 18 the Wuskwatim dam and the associated transmission 19 projects. The advantages of generating clean 20 energy for our citizens, for Manitobans, for 21 Canadians, and for export is monumental. 22 Thompson has been involved with the 23 Wuskwatim project since the inception. The City 24 has been briefed and has been included in the 25 preliminary and periodic information sessions. We 3319 1 also have received regular progress reports 2 concerning this development. As well, displays 3 were made available in town hall meetings for the 4 review and perusal of the general public. There 5 have been many discussions concerning the 6 environmental issues, and from my reading and 7 interpretation of the material provided, it 8 appears there will be little or no impact on the 9 environment. This past weekend I participated in 10 CUSO's Creating Climate for Change Conference in 11 Winnipeg. It is evident that industry has a 12 significant impact on the environment, not only in 13 the industrialized world, but also in developing 14 countries. 15 As these are serious concerns with 16 using other types of energy such as fossil fuels 17 and nuclear reactors, it is obvious that the 18 Wuskwatim project would greatly reduce 19 environmental impact and concerns. This valuable 20 resource can be marketed and sold worldwide. 21 The economic benefits to Thompson, 22 First Nations, and to our region will be immense. 23 Even if we just consider the number of people and 24 companies who would be employed directly during 25 construction and indirectly with this initiative. 3320 1 Additionally, the opportunities for value added in 2 this Province with very competitive hydro rates 3 will attract industry to Manitoba and to our 4 region. 5 I am pleased that these public 6 hearings are being held in Thompson, a location 7 that is near the actual site. While we support 8 consultation, disclosure, and due diligence, it is 9 disconcerting however to read and hear about 10 individuals and organizations who are bent on 11 preventing this project from going ahead. I 12 question their motives and wonder if they have 13 ever been in our area, or if they have any 14 firsthand knowledge of the circumstances 15 surrounding this partnership. 16 The partnership is to be commended. 17 It is unique and perhaps historic, for we see 18 industry and community partnering to create real 19 and sustainable economic development. The 20 viability of our communities are dependent on 21 creation of wealth. This and similar other 22 projects will contribute and strengthen such 23 endeavors. 24 NCN, Manitoba Hydro, and the Province 25 of Manitoba have been extremely open and honest 3321 1 about the venture. When we look at resource rich 2 provinces, sometimes with envy, and now see what 3 we have on our doorstep, it leads me to believe 4 that the development of clean energy in the north 5 will benefit all Manitobans. 6 In closing, let the record state that 7 the City of Thompson totally supports the 8 Wuskwatim project. We want to get on with it. 9 Thank you. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, 11 Mr. Comaskey. Are there questions? Yes, there is 12 a question. 13 MS. NECKOWAY: My name is Ramona 14 Neckoway, and I am just actually going to respond 15 and ask you a question. 16 You had mentioned something about 17 independent people and their motives for 18 questioning this project. I have no motives other 19 than the future of my children, questioning the 20 impact of this project for us. And I have a 21 question for you. Have you been to our area? I 22 invite you to come and drink our water. I invite 23 you to our community. 24 MR. COMASKEY: I have been to your 25 community and I will go back again, and I accept 3322 1 your invitation. 2 MS. NECKOWAY: And I suggest you have 3 a glass of water while you are there. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions? 5 MR. MONTGOMERY: Hello, my name is 6 Darryl Montgomery, I am the vice-president for the 7 Manitoba Metis Federation, and my question to 8 Mayor Bill Comaskey is, I have been in this 9 community for six years, and time and time again 10 we have, as Aboriginal people, we have asked for 11 your support in different areas, and one of those 12 areas was the urban reserve and the leadership of 13 this community. The Mayor and Council took it 14 upon themselves, instead of making a leadership 15 decision, decided to have a referendum, and in 16 turn have, you know -- from what I can see, didn't 17 support the urban reserve process. So, my 18 question is, you know, there was no support there, 19 and throughout the years there hasn't been a lot 20 of support by Thompson in some of the initiatives 21 that would have benefited us as Aboriginal people. 22 Why, you know -- 23 THE CHAIRMAN: I am not sure that I 24 heard your question. Would you repeat that, 25 please? 3323 1 MR. MONTGOMERY: I guess my question 2 would be, we had opportunity in the past in 3 different initiatives as Aboriginal people that 4 this Mayor and Council has not been in support of. 5 Why now have you jumped on board and supported 6 this process? And you know, we have -- I too am 7 from one of the communities from South Indian Lake 8 and, you know, I too encourage you to come to 9 South Indian Lake and see the devastation of the 10 lack of economic development. 11 I am a business owner in South Indian 12 Lake and I started a business there three years 13 ago, and I still don't have running water in my 14 building. And it just -- it infuriates me that, 15 you know, I read the front page of the Free Press 16 today and I see your comments in regards to 17 discrediting us for coming to these hearings and 18 then challenging some of the past and present 19 practices of Hydro, why that would make you angry 20 as a leader when these issues need to be resolved. 21 And you have no right to question my integrity. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you have asked a 23 question at the beginning, but you carried on and 24 then you are making a statement now. So I guess 25 you should give a chance to the Mayor to answer 3324 1 the question that you raised at the beginning. 2 MR. COMASKEY: Mr. Chairman, I will do 3 my best to answer the question, but with respect 4 to Aboriginal development and Aboriginal 5 investment in the City of Thompson, I have worked 6 with MKO, I have worked with Northern Manitoba 7 round table, I have worked with First Nation 8 investment in Thompson for years. And I have been 9 to South Indian Lake, and I will accept your 10 invitation and I will go back there with you 11 again. 12 I did not take issue with regards to 13 people in Northern Manitoba questioning the 14 project. People are entitled to that. It is a 15 democratic right. What I take issue with, and I 16 stand by my statement, I take great issue with 17 people from south of the border and from southern 18 parts of the Province that are not familiar with 19 the opportunities here. I support due diligence, 20 and I believe that by the Commission being here 21 and people having an opportunity to make 22 presentations and to voice their opinion, that 23 that is important and it is fair. 24 I would also like to mention that this 25 is not only an Aboriginal development initiative. 3325 1 I mean, we are all northerners, and when we work 2 together we can make things happen. And I would 3 suggest that any time we have an opportunity to 4 create a development that will benefit First 5 Nations, we should be supportive of it. 6 I am concerned that the negative side 7 of this issue is -- some of the difficulties and 8 wrongs of the past, they are dominating this whole 9 debate. As far as I can tell, this project has 10 been -- this partnership has worked very well with 11 NCN and Manitoba Hydro, and I am convinced that 12 the benefits to us all will far outlast any of the 13 negatives. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Avery Kinew? 15 MS. AVERY KINEW: The second part of 16 the question, Mr. Comaskey, seemed to be the 17 feeling that, why are you as Mayor supporting this 18 project now when you didn't seem to be as vocal in 19 previous projects? 20 MR. COMASKEY: I have been very 21 supportive of projects in the past, and if Chief 22 Primrose was here and NCN -- as a matter of fact 23 the Northern University College proposal, the 24 project which was talked about for years was in a 25 discussion with Chief Primrose and myself and with 3326 1 Grand Chief Francis Flett. And it was through MKO 2 that that proposal was submitted to the Government 3 of Manitoba. And I thank again the Government of 4 Manitoba for approving that project. 5 Our belief is, and it is not a 6 non-Aboriginal/Aboriginal belief, that our future 7 and our road out of a social recession is through 8 education. So that is one of the projects that I 9 have been involved with. I meet regularly with 10 Grand Chief Sydney Garrick, we have the Northern 11 Manitoba round table with Reg Mead, who is the 12 Mayor of Wabowden and he is also president of the 13 Northern Association of Community Councils. As a 14 matter of fact, last Friday we had a meeting and 15 we talked about economic development that would 16 benefit all of Northern Manitoba, not just 17 Thompson. But we do have a stake in this. 18 To say that I haven't supported 19 Aboriginal development in the past, or that I 20 haven't worked with Aboriginal communities, 21 including the MMF, Mr. Montgomery, is false. I 22 have supported you in many ventures -- I probably 23 have given you 15 or 20 letters of support for 24 projects that you were working on. We work with 25 the youth in our city to form partnerships as 3327 1 well. So I find it odd that you would get in 2 front of a microphone here and say that I have not 3 been supportive of Aboriginal initiatives in the 4 past. 5 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Mayer. 7 MR. MAYER: Your Worship, as mayor of 8 the city, I am hoping you can with some authority 9 advise this Commission, approximately what percent 10 of the population of Thompson itself are 11 Aboriginal people? 12 MR. COMASKEY: Thank you, Mr. Mayer. 13 With respect to the Aboriginal population in our 14 city, it is between 35 and 40 percent. 15 MR. MAYER: Thank you, sir. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 17 MR. DYSART: Good afternoon, Mayor 18 Comaskey, my name is Leslie Dysart, I am a 19 Northern Manitoban, a South Indian Laker and an 20 NCN band member, and also a long term supporter of 21 Thompson economy, and hope to continue to do so. 22 Just in regards to some of your 23 statements, or some specifics in your statement, I 24 am wondering, the progress reports that you refer 25 to, who provides those to you and I am assuming 3328 1 your council? 2 MR. COMASKEY: We have received joint 3 information, newsletters from NCN and from 4 Manitoba Hydro. And I have attended sessions in 5 this particular building with respect to progress 6 with regards to the project. And consultants have 7 come over to city hall and I have met with them, 8 and they have discussed some of the issues with 9 myself. So it has been ongoing, it has been 10 through newsletters, through town hall meetings, 11 through conversations with -- through meetings, 12 not only conversations, but through meetings with 13 consultants, and I have had numerous meetings with 14 Chief Primrose. 15 MR. DYSART: So, given it is just the 16 proponents you have talked to, it is a bit 17 one-sided, considering the panel here, part of 18 their mandate -- I stand to be corrected -- is to 19 review whether or not the environmental impact 20 statements are adequate. My question is, have you 21 read the ten linear feet of documentation that is 22 behind you, in basing your statements on -- 23 MR. COMASKEY: It is half a square 24 kilometre of flooding, I am told, and that there 25 are -- I am not going to challenge technical 3329 1 reports, and I have not done that in my 2 presentation. I take a lot of the information 3 that I get, I take it at face value. I will 4 question it, and I have done so throughout this 5 process. I would leave the technical end of it to 6 others that have been involved in this from the 7 beginning. I have no reason to believe whatsoever 8 that the project will have any sort of adverse 9 effects on the environment. What I sense is 10 coming out of a lot of these discussions, and I 11 sense it in this room, not only in the room but 12 from some of the people that are speaking, is that 13 there is a need, and that may well be, to resolve 14 some of the issues of the past. And I would 15 suggest that those should be dealt with 16 separately. It seems to me that this particular 17 project is being used to call in some of the 18 problems or even some of the challenges that have 19 been encountered through development in the past. 20 And I believe that this agreement that has been 21 discussed, negotiated with NCN and Hydro, is a 22 fair agreement, and I take it that the 23 environmental issues, the environmental concerns 24 have been well addressed. So I accept that. 25 MR. DYSART: So in answer to my 3330 1 question, you haven't yourself taken the 2 opportunity to read the documentation provided by 3 Manitoba Hydro and NCN? 4 THE CHAIRMAN: I think, Mr. Dysart, 5 that you asked a question and you got an answer. 6 MR. DYSART: Okay. You said earlier 7 to Mr. Montgomery that you stand by your 8 statements. I just want to read a quote from the 9 paper today, and I would ask you to verify if that 10 is accurate, what was portrayed? It says. 11 "Comaskey, who will make his 12 presentation today, said other 13 Aboriginal groups like those living in 14 Cross Lake and South Indian Lake are 15 seizing the Wuskwatim hearings as an 16 opportunity to blame Hydro for past 17 problems. They are not dealing with 18 the present." 19 Is that a fair and accurate statement? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dysart, I will 21 respond here, because that is exactly the response 22 that Mr. Comaskey just gave you, just before you 23 asked that question, that is exactly what he said. 24 He responded to that. 25 MR. DYSART: I just didn't want to 3331 1 take anything out of context. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: It was fully in 3 context. 4 MR. DYSART: My question is, like 5 throughout this process -- I don't know how 6 familiar you are with it, I have been involved 7 with it since basically day one -- certain terms 8 have been used like economic terrorist, now 9 crusader, and I might be painted as a rabble 10 rouser for keeping coming up to the mike, but my 11 question to you is, have you and your Council 12 provided an opportunity to ask people who have 13 concerns about this project to talk to your 14 Council? 15 MR. COMASKEY: We have had a 16 delegation that appeared before our Council some 17 months ago that were concerned with this 18 particular project. They made a presentation. We 19 certainly afforded them the opportunity to do 20 that. Obviously, we know that that did not mean 21 all of the people that were concerned, or were 22 opposed to it that they came to Council, but we 23 have done that. If you want to appear before 24 Council and express a view, you are entitled to do 25 that. 3332 1 MR. DYSART: I will take that forward 2 to my leadership. Thank you. 3 MR. COMASKEY: Thank you. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, sir. 5 MR. HART: Good afternoon. My name is 6 Nelson Hart. I was here yesterday. I stated, I 7 made my statements bilingually, since this is a 8 country of bilingualism. Up here bilingualism is 9 Cree and English, but I am not going to be 10 bilingual, I will just use the second language. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Oui monsieur. 12 MR. HART: I am going to ask you, 13 Mayor, about this; are you still furious over 14 anti-dam crusades as Mayor of Thompson, as a 15 northerner? Like the way it is stated here, are 16 you still furious over anti-dam crusades held in 17 your city? That is my first question. 18 MR. COMASKEY: Mr. Hart, you are one 19 of the ones that came to Council to express your 20 concern with this project, and while I have no -- 21 MR. HART: I expect an honest answer. 22 MR. COMASKEY: I am going to give you 23 an honest answer. I am not a furious man. I 24 don't think that you have found me to be a furious 25 man. Any time that you want to speak to me or I 3333 1 want to speak to you, we can do that. So I would 2 like to say that, I am not here as a furious man. 3 I am here as a northerner. I have lived here for 4 37 years. 5 MR. HART: Maybe the way this is 6 stated is just the way the reporters want to see 7 the rest of the province and the rest of the 8 country to see what is going on in our 9 neighborhood. 10 MR. COMASKEY: And I can't -- I don't 11 dispute anything that is in that article, but I 12 will say to you that I am not referring to anyone 13 here in the north as a crusader. 14 MR. HART: That is fine. My other 15 question is, are you furious of First Nations in 16 general? 17 MR. COMASKEY: Sorry? 18 MR. HART: Are you furious of First 19 Nations people in general? 20 MR. COMASKEY: My record speaks for 21 itself. There are people in this room here that I 22 have worked with over the last -- I have been a 23 member of Thompson City Council since 1989, and I 24 have worked with First Nation leaders and 25 Aboriginal peoples, and I consider myself a friend 3334 1 of Aboriginal peoples, and I considered Aboriginal 2 peoples my friends. So I have absolutely, as a 3 matter of fact, I feel very comfortable in 4 Aboriginal circles, and I wish we weren't doing 5 this. We are sort of pitting Aboriginal First 6 Nations against urban industrial communities. I 7 believe that we all have a stake in this project 8 and we should work on it as such. 9 MR. HART: Thank you for your time, 10 sir. 11 MR. COMASKEY: Thank you, Mr. Hart. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any other 13 questions? 14 MR. MILLER: Nelson Miller, 15 Pimicikamak. Couple of questions, Mayor. I have 16 done a lot of business here in Thompson, with the 17 43 years history that you have in our territories. 18 The question that I have is, you are saying that 19 you would support our people. Would you support 20 an Aboriginal owned gas station in Thompson 21 whereby we could buy tax free gas when we come to 22 Thompson for our people? 23 MR. COMASKEY: Nelson, I will support 24 any type of development in our city if it meets 25 zoning requirements and development agreements. 3335 1 So, we take each proposal as an economic 2 investment, and we will consider it the same way 3 as we would consider any other investment. 4 MR. MILLER: So that is maybe or maybe 5 not? 6 MR. COMASKEY: We are open for 7 business. We welcome investment in the community. 8 And we are eager, if you have a proposal, to come 9 and see us. 10 MR. MILLER: Mayor, would you speak on 11 our behalf to talk to the businesses, to tell them 12 that, you know, for our people, we would like to 13 purchase goods tax free? 14 MR. COMASKEY: I mean, whatever tax 15 benefits that people have, you are entitled to 16 that, and I am sure that the businesses of 17 Thompson are more than -- you know, they will 18 conform to whatever the taxation laws are. So I 19 don't -- as we speak, I believe that is happening 20 now. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, did you give your 22 name for the record -- Mr. Miller? 23 Mr. Miller, sorry, you are raising 24 issues that have to do with Aboriginal business in 25 Thompson, and I hope you will continue to pursue 3336 1 that with the City of Thompson, but I fail to see 2 the relevance to the topic and the presentation 3 that was made. So, I left you with some 4 flexibility to ask that question, and I would hope 5 that you would now ask questions, if you have 6 some, relating to the presentation made on the 7 project that we are here to listen. You have to 8 understand, sir, that even though these are Clean 9 Environment Commission hearings, and I have 10 provided a lot of latitude, the fact of the matter 11 is -- maybe there is a misunderstanding here -- we 12 are here to hear -- our presence here today is to 13 give an opportunity to the people to make their 14 views known and to ask questions about the 15 project. That is what we have a mandate to do. 16 And we have a mandate afterwards to make 17 recommendations to the Minister on the specific 18 project. And it has nothing to do with anything 19 else. 20 So, you can raise these opportunities, 21 these issues with the mayor, and other issues that 22 are of interest to you and other members of the 23 community at any time you wish, but they are not 24 germane, or they don't belong to this particular 25 hearing at this time. So, hopefully, you will 3337 1 refrain from those questions. 2 MR. MILLER: I don't see it that way. 3 Mr. Comaskey made a presentation here and I am 4 asking questions in respect to his support for our 5 people, and that is all I wanted to say. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: That is why I gave -- 7 as I said, I allowed some flexibility, but I wish 8 you ask other questions that are more closely 9 related to the actual project at hand. 10 MR. MILLER: Thank you. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. 12 MR. OSBORNE: Good afternoon, 13 Mr. Chairman. My name is William Osborne. Good 14 afternoon, Mayor Comaskey. I have a question that 15 is very significant to the project. Mr. Comaskey, 16 are you familiar and knowledgeable about the 17 Supreme Court rulings? 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Which Supreme Court 19 ruling are you referring to, sir? 20 MR. OSBORNE: I can name a few, 21 Gladstone, Sparrow, Badger. Are you familiar and 22 knowledgeable about the Supreme Court rulings, yes 23 or no? 24 MR. COMASKEY: No, I am not. 25 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you. 3338 1 MR. MCIVOR: Mayor Comaskey, just some 2 questions -- 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. McIvor, thank you. 4 MR. MCIVOR: Greg McIvor, Trapline 18. 5 I have had an opportunity to work with His Honour 6 a few years ago, and I have also been a resident 7 of Thompson for a number of years, and, you know, 8 you should be congratulated on some of the 9 activities that you have been involved with, with 10 the communities. But I think, in all fairness as 11 well, I think you are being involved in the urban 12 reserve as well, some issues like that that take a 13 little bit more in terms of mandate and scope. 14 But my question is, Mayor Comaskey, you had 15 indicated just briefly a few minutes ago that you 16 take things at face value in terms of the 17 Wuskwatim project from the people that are 18 providing information. I mean, you are not going 19 to challenge technical reports or anything like 20 that. I don't think that anybody expects you to 21 do so. In terms of statement of understanding 22 with the Manitoba Hydro and NCN, are you aware of 23 any of the details or specifics in that? 24 MR. COMASKEY: I am aware of the basic 25 agreement, that there is a percentage, there is an 3339 1 investment by NCN, and that there is obviously a 2 great potential for return on that investment, so 3 it is a partnership between Manitoba Hydro and 4 NCN. And I have no reason to doubt -- this is 5 unique, especially it is unique in Northern 6 Manitoba, and I believe that the First Nation 7 community will benefit from that. So as far as 8 the exact particulars and how that split is worked 9 out, I am not familiar with that. 10 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. I guess, you know, 11 taking everything at face value, it is not 12 expected somebody would be aware of all of the 13 details. But say, for example, a business came 14 into your community and wanted to set up, you 15 know, a nice little restaurant along the river. 16 Would you be familiar with say, for example, the 17 high level on the severance that Manitoba Hydro 18 has on the Burntwood? 19 MR. COMASKEY: Yes. 20 MR. MCIVOR: Are you familiar with the 21 level for the low range? 22 MR. COMASKEY: We get a regular report 23 from Manitoba Hydro on the water levels. In our 24 city, under any type of a development, we are very 25 keenly aware of the restrictions for development 3340 1 along the Burntwood River. 2 MR. MCIVOR: Would you know what the 3 specific minimum level is for Thompson, the 4 Burntwood River? 5 MR. COMASKEY: I don't have that off 6 the top of my head, no, I don't. 7 MR. MCIVOR: If I wanted to build a 8 business there and I said, well, I have got some 9 investors, I want to go ahead, can I buy the land, 10 can I do all of that stuff, with that in place, 11 with no agreement for the city to conduct business 12 with me, I mean, would it be a requirement to have 13 an agreement in place before I wanted to build, 14 with the financing, within the City of Thompson 15 along the Burntwood River? 16 MR. COMASKEY: I mean, any type of a 17 development agreement, we have to have -- there 18 are processes that need to be followed with 19 respect to any type of development within the City 20 of Thompson. We would see -- we have 21 categorically stated that we will look at any type 22 of investment, any type of development. Zoning is 23 our guiding principle and, of course, we can't 24 entertain a proposal to develop within the 25 restrictions on the waterfront or any other 3341 1 restrictions. We have other restrictions 2 throughout the city with respect to development, 3 but it is no different with regards to whether you 4 want to come and do a development, or whether 5 somebody else wants to do a development, we are 6 open for business and we would love to have you 7 come in and talk to us. 8 MR. MCIVOR: One of the requirements 9 of the City of Thompson is make sure all of the 10 I's are dotted and T's are crossed in terms of 11 what is going to happen once it is zoned, and all 12 of that stuff is in place for financing and 13 liability? 14 MR. COMASKEY: Our responsibility is 15 to provide developable land, to inform the 16 investor of the requirements, and then get out of 17 the way. However, there are requirements and 18 there are conditions that are on any development, 19 it doesn't matter whether it is from somebody from 20 another province, or whether it is somebody from 21 Northern Manitoba, or from somebody from within 22 the City of Thompson, the same set of rules apply 23 to all. 24 MR. MCIVOR: Just for example, if I 25 suggested to you that the agreement -- 3342 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. McIvor, you have 2 asked the question and the question was answered. 3 I heard the Mayor say, if you have got the money, 4 we are open for business, follow the rules, and 5 that applies to you or anybody else. 6 MR. MCIVOR: Thank you. I just have 7 one more question. It is not going to be long. 8 If I suggested to you, Mayor Comaskey, 9 that the deal between Manitoba Hydro and NCN is 10 not completed, that they are asking for approval 11 prior to even completing and signing an agreement 12 on Wuskwatim, would you still support that? 13 MR. COMASKEY: I mean, I support the 14 process, and it has been stated very recently that 15 the project doesn't go ahead unless it gets 16 approval from the citizens of NCN, and I respect 17 that. I am not trying to get out ahead of this 18 whole process. And part of the reason why we have 19 been -- why we haven't been as outspoken about it 20 as we have in the past is because we were leaving 21 it and are leaving it to the two parties, or the 22 parties involved, and I believe they will work out 23 an agreement. If they haven't signed on the 24 dotted line, I am sure that that will follow due 25 process. But, I mean, I find this a very exciting 3343 1 project. I find us situated in a place where we 2 can all benefit from it. And I don't disagree 3 with some of the concerns and some of the problems 4 of the past, but let's get on with this 5 development so that our children and their 6 children and their children can enjoy some 7 economic prosperity in Northern Manitoba, not only 8 in Thompson, Manitoba. 9 MR. MCIVOR: Just one final -- your 10 comments on people bringing up, you know, dragging 11 skeletons out of the closet, I think your 12 reference to new prosperity and everything else, 13 but I think at the same time, Mayor Comaskey, the 14 responsibility of City of Thompson in terms of who 15 your clients are -- you say you are open for 16 business, is it just a one-way street, bring your 17 money here and -- 18 MR. COMASKEY: Mr. Chairman, if I may 19 just respond to that. You know that is not the 20 position that we take. And it is, I mean, we all 21 have a stake in this. And when I say that it is 22 not only the parochial City of Thompson, it is the 23 region, and I believe it is an opportunity for us 24 to see some growth in Northern Manitoba. We can 25 not encourage or entice a shoe factory to one of 3344 1 the Aboriginal communities or to one of the 2 industrial communities, it is just not on. But we 3 have valuable hydro development opportunities, and 4 as long as they are not -- I mean, we won't 5 satisfy everyone, and I am not here to try and 6 lead the charge, but it needs to be stated and I 7 am stating it on behalf of the City of Thompson 8 that we are in support of this project. 9 MR. MCIVOR: Okay. Thank you. 10 MR. COMASKEY: And that is not meant 11 to be an arrogant statement. Some of the people 12 that are taking issue with some of my remarks, I 13 agree that some of the items that have been drawn 14 into this whole debate are wrongs of yesteryear. 15 They should be settled. And I am not disputing 16 the communities that are questioning them, that 17 they don't get the satisfaction of resolving these 18 issues. But don't kill this project, or try to 19 kill this project because of the wrongs of 20 yesteryear. 21 MR. MCIVOR: Thank you. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Further questions? 23 Thank you. 24 Mr. Comaskey, we thank you for taking 25 the time to make the presentation. 3345 1 Mr. Grewar. 2 MR. GREWAR: If we might enter as 3 exhibit OTH-1012, Wuskwatim Generation and 4 Transmission Projects presentation by Mayor Bill 5 Comaskey, City of Thompson. 6 7 (EXHIBIT OTH-1012: Wuskwatim 8 Generation and Transmission Projects 9 presentation by Mayor Bill Comaskey, 10 City of Thompson) 11 12 THE CHAIRMAN: I will call upon 13 Mr. Darcy Linklater. Mr. Grewar. 14 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could you state your 15 name for the record, please? 16 MR. LINKLATER: My name is Darcy 17 Linklater. 18 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Linklater, are you 19 aware that it is an offence in Manitoba to 20 knowingly mislead this Commission? 21 MR. LINKLATER: Yes. 22 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 23 only the truth in proceedings before this 24 Commission? 25 MR. LINKLATER: Yes. 3346 1 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 2 MR. LINKLATER: Good afternoon, 3 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, all of the 4 participants. I appreciate the opportunity to 5 speak to you today. I also would like to welcome 6 all of you to our distant territory. Thompson, 7 Manitoba is within our traditional territory. 8 I would like to compliment the 9 Commission and all of the participants that are 10 here exercising their freedom to express their 11 opinions in this democratic society. I do wish to 12 express my opinion. I do wish to exercise that 13 freedom that I have as an individual. 14 On the outset, I would like to state 15 that I am in support of this project. I would 16 like to say that I have been identified in these 17 proceedings as an elected Councillor of 18 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, as an advisor and 19 contributor to some of the documents prepared by 20 Manitoba Hydro and the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation 21 as part of our obligation regarding the proposed 22 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Projects. 23 But, Mr. Chairman, I am not opposing my colleague, 24 he sought the responsibility as future development 25 councillor, I respect him, he has done a lot of 3347 1 work for us. But, Mr. Chairman, I also have a 2 responsibility. I have the portfolio for Treaty 3 Land Entitlement. 4 First, I would like to briefly tell 5 you about a journey of injustice as Cree people, 6 as Aboriginal people throughout this country. Our 7 citizens on the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, today 8 we continue to occupy and inhabit our traditional 9 lands, our homeland in Northern Manitoba, as we 10 have for many centuries before the arrival of the 11 Europeans, before the arrival of the fur traders 12 in the 1680s. And for all of this time, 13 Mr. Chairman, respected Commissioners, our 14 strength and our peace and our well-being has come 15 from our faith with the Creator. It has come from 16 our sense of community. It has come from our 17 stewardship of the land, the water, and the 18 resources. Our survival on the land has been 19 guided by the collective knowledge of our 20 ancestors, our elders, our community members. 21 This knowledge has been passed on from generation 22 to generation, growing and becoming valuable with 23 each new experience. And this is a new experience 24 for our people. 25 Our ancestors for the last 500 years, 3348 1 they have overcome oppression and many injustices 2 that we overcame. Our ancestors prayed for us and 3 they spoke on our behalf. People say if we want 4 to honour our ancestors, then we must continue to 5 want to exist, that is how we honour our 6 ancestors. I want to continue to exist. That is 7 why I am here. That is why I have been supporting 8 this process. It hasn't been a smooth ride in 9 negotiations. Sometimes we express our 10 differences. I don't want anybody to think it has 11 been smooth. 12 Mr. Chairman, we have continuously 13 used and occupied our homelands for at least 7500 14 years, as the Chief stated. Much of this period 15 of occupation was recently confirmed by our 16 discovery of the largest and oldest parcel of 17 human remains and bones and specialized tools ever 18 found in the boreal forest of Canada, within our 19 homeland. 20 Some people use Nelson House. This 21 name was given by fur traders, Hudson Bay Company, 22 traders to the trading post which was built in our 23 territory as early as 1802, at the place where the 24 Burntwood, Footprint, and Red Rivers meet. 25 I have a very sensitive issue as a 3349 1 leader, as an individual. On July 30, 1908, in 2 recognition of our Aboriginal title to our 3 homeland, our ancestors, including my great 4 grandfather, the late Pierre Moose, I am the 5 direct descendent of that great Chief. Her 6 Majesty, Her Majesty Treaty Commissioners, they 7 entered into what is Treaty # 5. On the terms of 8 our treaty, it confirmed a solemn promise that the 9 lands, the waters, and the resources within our 10 traditional territory will be shared forever 11 between our nation and the settlers entering our 12 territory. 13 The history of my family, our 14 ancestors, and our elders, they also say that the 15 treaty secures a promise that the use and 16 management of the land, the water, and natural 17 resources within our territory would continue to 18 be subject to the inherent authority and 19 jurisdiction of Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. 20 Between 1910 and 1917, and almost 21 immediately after entering into our Treaty, Canada 22 cut through our southern lands in our territory by 23 building a railway between The Pas and Kettle 24 Rapids, setting in motion the first of many 25 disruptions and changes to our undisturbed use of 3350 1 our homelands that we have enjoyed for thousands 2 of years. In 1930, the Federal Government 3 violated our Treaty by a unilateral transfer of 4 control over our lands and resources to the 5 Provincial Government through the Manitoba Natural 6 Resource Transfer Agreement. By the late 1930s, 7 the Provincial Government was providing new 8 settlers, allocating our fur resources, trapping 9 areas, timber, and large tracts of homeland of our 10 land for homesteading. 11 In 1956, the International Nickel 12 Company struck a large nickel ore body in the 13 southeast of our traditional territory, at least 14 that is their story. We have a different story, 15 according to our oral history. The late James 16 Spence, who was a leader at that time, he was the 17 one that found that ore, and he asked these people 18 to go and check and analyze it. These people 19 stole it from him, for a slab of bacon, a knife, 20 and a net. And there were promises, oral promises 21 to the family at that time. One of the elders 22 also told me that my grandfather was involved, his 23 name was Carlos Spence. Over five hundred claims 24 were staked and Thompson quickly changed from a 25 few tent camp to a modern city of 15,000 people, 3351 1 becoming Manitoba's third largest city. 2 The Kelsey Generating Station 3 completed in 1961 to supply power to the mine, 4 mill, and smelter operations and to the City of 5 Thompson was the first hydro project on the Nelson 6 River. Between 1971 and 1974, the town of Leaf 7 Rapids was carved out of the northwest region of 8 our traditional land to serve employees of the 9 newly opened mine, then known as Sherritt Gordon 10 mines. Both developments were approved by 11 Manitoba without our involvement, without our 12 approval, without our consent. 13 In 1972, Manitoba designated the Paint 14 Lake Provincial Park on park reserve without our 15 input, without our consent. And Manitoba isolated 16 even more of our traditional lands, hunting and 17 fish areas through recreational, marina and 18 cottage developments. 19 But, Mr. Chairman, respected 20 Commissioners, even the impacts of road, rail, 21 mines, smelter, town site, and park developments 22 on two sides of our traditional lands does not 23 compare to the impact caused by the Churchill 24 River Diversion project, which was announced by 25 Manitoba Hydro in 1966. 3352 1 The Provincial Government approved the 2 interim licenses for the diversion plans in 1972 3 and 1973, once again without our input, without 4 our consent. Our home waters on the Rat and 5 Burntwood Rivers became a diversion channel for 6 hydro power production. The Churchill River 7 Diversion project would bring irreversible 8 environmental impacts to our camps, to our 9 families, to our communities. 10 A former leader mentioned 1975, a task 11 force on northern flooding was convened to examine 12 the potential effects of flooding on Nelson House 13 and other locations. The task force recommended 14 compensation for direct losses and provision for 15 future losses through a negotiated agreement. At 16 this time it was recognized that placing a dollar 17 value on the partial destruction of our centuries 18 old way of life would be very difficult. It is 19 still very hard to place value on those things. 20 It was not until December 1977 that 21 Manitoba, Manitoba Hydro, and Canada, entered into 22 the Northern Flood Agreement with our people and 23 four other First Nations directly affected by 24 Manitoba Hydro's regulation projects. The 25 Northern Flood Agreement was intended to address, 3353 1 mitigate, and provide compensation for the 2 substantial environmental and socioeconomic 3 effects imposed on our communities by projects 4 approved by Manitoba and Canada to serve in a 5 broader public interest. 6 In our Cree language, the word 7 Nisichawayasihk means "where three rivers meet." 8 And I would like to correct one of the presenters 9 yesterday, he tried to pronounce Nisichawayasihk 10 and he said (speaking Cree.) Elvis can explain 11 what that means. 12 Mr. Chairman, sorry for that, but that 13 is part of who we are, it is humour. 14 Mr. Chairman, over the past 25 years 15 our community and our relatives, our families, 16 they have grieved. That has been expressed in 17 other hearings in Winnipeg. We have come to 18 realize, Mr. Chairman, that these same paths can 19 never be reversed or fully mitigated. New 20 generations will only know of the community site 21 our ancestors so carefully chose and sought to 22 protect in the Treaty through our traditional 23 knowledge, through the sharing of our oral 24 history. 25 Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that 3354 1 even though our life has been hard, I would like 2 to say that much has been accomplished since the 3 Churchill River Diversion project was developed. 4 Much more can and is being done today. Plus our 5 community, as I expressed, we may never entirely 6 accept the impacts of past developments, but we 7 are making efforts to turn things around whenever 8 we can, wherever we can. We have already 9 established new community fishing camps on nearby 10 rivers and lakes not affected by hydroelectric 11 development. We have set up and operate a program 12 for our elders and community members. We have our 13 own community wellness centre. We have our own 14 personal care home, so that our elders don't have 15 to leave our community. We are very proud of 16 that. I believe also that the unemployment rate 17 has come down in the community. We continue to 18 document traditional knowledge of our elders and 19 community members, which knowledge supports our 20 community and strategic planning. 21 We are fortunate that our ancestors 22 established our traditional territories over such 23 a rich and varied landscape. The leaders, my 24 colleagues, not only the elected leaders but there 25 are other leaders in our community, they recognize 3355 1 the present opportunities to build up on the 2 knowledge and wisdom of our ancestors and of our 3 community. 4 In applying this knowledge, we believe 5 that we have such a thing called Indian science. 6 There is a pool of wisdom that exists in our 7 community -- not only in our community, but in 8 other communities. And I believe, Mr. Chairman, 9 that we can use both our knowledge, our science, 10 the native science, and the western science, to 11 build a good future for our people, for our 12 children, for our unborn. 13 I speak about this knowledge, I am 14 using this knowledge -- we have selected parcels 15 of land as compensation for past development. On 16 March 16, 1996, as was mentioned by my colleagues, 17 we signed a comprehensive agreement to implement 18 the provisions of the 1977 Northern Flood 19 Agreement. And I would like to say -- somebody 20 asked a question, is the Northern Flood Agreement 21 a Treaty? My late father was a political leader 22 and also a spiritual leader. My late father, even 23 though he didn't go to school, he used to remind 24 me, "don't forget King George." I didn't 25 understand what he meant. As time went on, I 3356 1 begin to understand what he was referring to, the 2 1763 agreement that was signed by King George. 3 And my late father used to remind me, any 4 agreement that is signed with Governments with 5 respect to land is to be considered a Treaty, 6 according to that agreement that King George 7 signed in 1763, the royal proclamation. 8 Article 6 of the 1996 agreement 9 provides for the establishment of a resource 10 management board and for the development of a land 11 use plan and resource management plan for our 12 resource management area. In part, through the 13 completion of these plans, NCN intends to assert 14 our authority within our traditional lands. 15 On May 29, 1997, NCN signed the 16 Manitoba Treaty Land Entitlement Framework 17 Agreement. I have it right here with me. The TLE 18 framework agreement is a treaty implementation 19 agreement, and it confirms the constitutionally 20 protected Treaty right of NCN people to select an 21 additional 7,475 acres of Crown land in accord 22 with the per capita provisions of that Treaty. 23 On July 30, 1998, the 90th anniversary 24 of the day on which my great grandfather signed 25 the intention to Treaty # 5, NCN entered into this 3357 1 Treaty Entitlement Agreement and initiated our 2 community process to select lands in partial 3 fulfillment of Treaty promises made in 1908. 4 Mr. Chairman, it took 90 years to implement what 5 my great grandfather signed. 6 On September 25, 2001, Nisichawayasihk 7 Cree Nation and Manitoba Hydro entered into an 8 Agreement in Principle, which provides us with an 9 opportunity to acquire an equity portion in the 10 proposed Wuskwatim electric project. Through the 11 joint development of the project, it is our 12 intention that environmental impacts of the past 13 will not be repeated. Our Agreement in Principle 14 also provides for the training and employment of 15 our community members in the project construction 16 operations. Through our partnership with Manitoba 17 Hydro and the Government, the Nisichawayasihk Cree 18 Nation will directly share in and benefit from the 19 future development within our territory. 20 The well-being of our people, I would 21 like to mention again, it has always been tied to 22 the land and to the natural resources within our 23 traditional territory. In order to fully restore 24 our self-reliance, we must achieve and maintain 25 economic self-sufficiency. 3358 1 We also recognize that our traditional 2 pursuits must be maintained, and that the degree 3 of our influence over decisions concerning natural 4 resource developments and management, as well as 5 the quality of our environment, are directly tied 6 to the social, cultural, and economic future of 7 our community. As with the choice of our 8 compensation lands, our treaty entitlement lands 9 have been selected to extend our influence 10 throughout our traditional territory and to 11 enhance our economic opportunities. 12 I am honoured to have been entrusted 13 with the responsibility to carry on the wishes of 14 my great grandfather, by making sure that these 15 treaty land entitlement lands will benefit and 16 provide for the next generations of our people, 17 our children. 18 In accord with the treaty land 19 entitlement framework agreement, NCN has a treaty 20 right to select lands along the developed waterway 21 where those lands are not physically required by 22 Manitoba Hydro at the 16 specific sites identified 23 by the Treaty Land Entitlement Agreement for 24 future development. And that was the purpose, the 25 direction that was given to us, to select lands 3359 1 for economic purposes. These 16 sites are 2 identified in schedule E of the TLE framework 3 agreement and are the same as the 16 sites at 4 figure 4.1, geographic location of potential sites 5 of the needs for and alternatives to the Wuskwatim 6 project. 7 In accord with our traditional use and 8 occupancy, and with our cultural and spiritual and 9 economic interests, some of the 40 NCN TLE 10 selections are of lands on developed waterway; 13 11 of the selections, or 33 percent of the total NCN 12 selections are confirmed to be eligible for 13 immediate transfer to become NCN reserve lands, 14 subject to easement, to an easement in favour of 15 Manitoba Hydro. These selections include several 16 sites of cultural significance on Wuskwatim Lake 17 and on the Burntwood River. While some of these 18 13 selections are of interest for future hydro 19 development, they are not reserved to Manitoba 20 Hydro under the Treaty Land Entitlement Agreement. 21 The NCN has requested that the lands 22 for these 13 selections are determined by Hydro as 23 being land from the ordinary high water mark, 24 which results from the terms of the interim 25 license for the Churchill River Diversion, plus, 3360 1 like the other presenter mentioned, the augmented 2 flow program. Applying the high water, the 3 ordinary high water levels resulting in existing 4 license authorization represents the actual 5 present water levels would be consistent with the 6 water regimes noted in the Agreement in Principle, 7 and with the water levels resulting from the 8 proposed Wuskwatim development, as presented in 9 the application presently before the Commission. 10 For example, it is NCN's expectation 11 that the Hydro easements for our TLE selections at 12 Wuskwatim Lake will be determined by using the 13 proposed Wuskwatim project elevation of 234 metres 14 for Wuskwatim Lake, past the ordinary high water 15 mark. 16 Chief Primrose has noted that NCN's 17 insistence of confirming the present low head 18 Wuskwatim configuration of 234 metres was a major 19 item during the negotiations. In addition, to the 20 water regime commitments, the Agreement in 21 Principle and application, Manitoba Hydro has also 22 presented a nominal plan of development for a 23 project at each of the sites noted in table 4.1 24 and figure 4.1 of the need for alternatives to the 25 Wuskwatim project. Using a low head approach to 3361 1 follow the present Wuskwatim proposal in order to 2 achieve nearly the full potential between Notigi 3 and Manasan -- it is pronounced Manasan in our 4 language. It means "where people used to go and 5 harvest clams." 6 There would be additional projects at 7 Early Morning Rapids and Taskinigup Falls, 8 neither of which projects are identified in the 9 need for alternatives to the Wuskwatim project. 10 NCN has made a TLE selection at Taskinigup Falls site. 11 Prior to the Agreement in Principle in 12 the present application, Manitoba Hydro had 13 considered developing the full potential between 14 Notigi and Manasan, with high head projects, 15 including a Wuskwatim development at 810 feet and 16 the Manasan development at 700 feet. The 17 Wuskwatim project option at 810 feet, with a 18 capacity of 350 megawatts, is not identified as an 19 alternative, in the need for and alternatives to 20 the Wuskwatim project report. And the 21 265-megawatt Manasan option presented appears to 22 be two metres lower than the full development 23 option at 700 feet. However, in determining the 24 easement for the 13 NCN Treaty Land Entitlement 25 selections that are otherwise eligible, Manitoba 3362 1 Hydro is seeking to protect its ability to proceed 2 with the full development options of a Wuskwatim 3 project at 810 feet and a Manasan project at 4 700 feet, by applying these high head project 5 elevations to the determination of easements. 6 It is clear that construction of a 7 Wuskwatim project at 810 feet would not be 8 possible for the current proposal to proceed. The 9 Manasan plan at 700 feet would not likely be 10 proposed under the current planning constraints, 11 as the project would involve extensive flooding of 12 the airport roads and other lands near Thompson. 13 Therefore, neither project will be formally 14 proposed or approved during the completion of our 15 Treaty Land Entitlement selection process. 16 However, Manitoba Hydro is still 17 seeking to preserve its option to proceed with 18 these alternative projects by establishing full 19 development easements for NCN's TLE selections on 20 the developed waterway. As part of the process to 21 determine the eligibility of NCN's TLE selections, 22 Manitoba has formally advised NCN that the future 23 project elevation of 810 feet would be applied to 24 all NCN TLE selections between Taskinigup Falls 25 and Notigi, and a future project elevation of 3363 1 700 feet would be applied to all NCN TLE 2 selections between Manasan and Taskinigup Falls. 3 The application for development 4 elevations to all NCN TLE selections on the 5 developed waterway will result in several NCN TLE 6 selections becoming ineligible, as the majority of 7 these selections would be covered by lands under 8 easement, including the sites of cultural 9 significance chosen by our elders on Wuskwatim 10 Lake. I would like to say that Wuskwatim Lake was 11 the original community in our territory. 12 As part of discussions under article 13 10 of the AIP, NCN and Manitoba Hydro have been 14 discussing the importance of confirming the 15 eligibility of all NCN selections, including the 16 requirement for Manitoba to fully justify Manitoba 17 Hydro's intention to apply for development 18 elevations. In light of the discussions taking 19 place under article 10 of the Agreement in 20 Principle, Manitoba has to defer the final 21 determination of the eligibility of NCN's TLE 22 selections on these development waterways pending 23 the outcome of these discussions. NCN has advised 24 Manitoba Hydro that the selection of Treaty 25 Entitlement Lands by NCN and the transfer of these 3364 1 lands to reserve status is a right recognized and 2 affirmed under section 35 of the Constitution Act, 3 1982. 4 I would like to refer to the Sparrow 5 case and the subsequent similar decisions. The 6 Supreme Court of Canada established the doctrine 7 that the exercise of an Aboriginal or Treaty right 8 may not be infringed by the Crown without a valid 9 and compelling justification. It is always the 10 owner of the Crown when we talk about our rights, 11 the constitutional duty of the Crown to justify 12 any infringement on the exercise of an Aboriginal 13 and Treaty right has been described by some as 14 fiduciary consultation, or a section 35 process. 15 The Supreme Court held in subsequent 16 decisions that the duty to justify an infringement 17 also applies to the Provincial Governments. In 18 applying a process of fiduciary consultation, the 19 following determinations must be made. Number 1, 20 an Aboriginal or Treaty right that may be affected 21 by a decision, is the right infringed by any 22 Government decision related to that decision? Is 23 the infringement justified? Is there a 24 justifiable expropriation of the right? Is 25 compensation available? 3365 1 Manitoba Hydro's intention to 2 determine easements by applying for development 3 water levels of 10 feet, without Treaty Land 4 Entitlement selections above Taskinigup Falls, and 5 700 feet to all selections above Manasan, would 6 result in the ineligibility of several selections 7 due to the provisions of the Treaty Land 8 Entitlement Framework Agreement. 9 Should Manitoba support Manitoba 10 Hydro's intended approach to the determination of 11 these easements, this will result in an 12 infringement of the exercise of the Treaty right 13 of the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. 14 The development of a Wuskwatim project 15 at 810 feet has not been proposed. It is not 16 identified by Manitoba Hydro as a future option at 17 table 4.1 and figure 4.4 of the needs for and 18 alternative to the Wuskwatim project, and will not 19 be possible should the current proposal proceed. 20 NCN will argue that Manitoba cannot justify the 21 application of full development water levels to 22 all NCN TLE selections between Taskinigup Falls 23 and Notigi. 24 Should Manitoba agree that Manitoba 25 Hydro may apply for development water levels to 3366 1 the determination of easements for all NCN TLE 2 selections on developed water between Notigi and 3 Manasan, I think NCN will argue that Manitoba has 4 unjustifiably infringed the exercise of our 5 constitutionally recognized firm treaty right to 6 select and transfer these lands to reserve. 7 I am very sensitive to this issue. 8 This issue needs to be resolved. As the Treaty 9 Land Entitlement Portfolio Councillor, I must 10 ensure that the exercise of NCN's Treaty right to 11 select our remaining entitlement lands is not 12 infringed without full justification. 13 People mention prosperity of our 14 people. The prosperity of our citizens will be 15 determined by the extent to which NCN directly 16 participates in, manages, and benefits from 17 decisions affecting the use and development of 18 lands and for future use and developments within 19 our traditional territory lands, including sites 20 with potential for hydroelectric development. 21 I will use an example. Should the low 22 head Wuskwatim project proceed, it is my 23 understanding that it will commit Manitoba Hydro 24 to other low head projects upstream of Wuskwatim, 25 thus preventing the additional potential 3367 1 environmental and socioeconomic effects of a 2 Wuskwatim development with a forebay level some 3 42 feet higher than the presently proposed 4 project. In part, through our daily selections on 5 other eligible sites with hydroelectric potential, 6 NCN is also seeking to ensure that only low head 7 projects are proposed in the future for the sites 8 downstream of Wuskwatim that are within our 9 traditional lands. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, can I interrupt 11 you for a minute? We have a transcriber and she 12 needs a bit of relaxation here. How much longer 13 do you have to present? 14 MR. LINKLATER: I am almost finished. 15 Mr. Chairman, I have to apologize. I have been 16 scribbling on my presentation, but I will give you 17 my presentation in The Pas. I apologize for that. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: We will get a copy of 19 that, that is what you are saying? 20 MR. LINKLATER: Yes. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: That is not what I am 22 referring to. But she has to write down 23 everything that you speak, and it has been going 24 on for a long time, so it gets very demanding on 25 the person. So, while the two of us are making 3368 1 comments, she is giving her fingers a bit of a 2 break. Apparently she is recording all of this 3 too, so that is not working. So we should 4 probably stop for a moment, just listen to the 5 spirits. You indicated that you are almost 6 finished, so we will carry on. 7 MR. LINKLATER: Mr. Chairman, with all 8 due respect, we have been waiting 90 years to 9 implement our treaty, I am pretty sure the 10 Commission will give me time, and I thank you for 11 allowing me time to express what took us 90 years, 12 the Governments 90 years to implement our Treaty. 13 Ready? 14 In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, as a 15 portfolio councillor responsible for Treaty Land 16 Entitlement, I must take every effort, every step 17 to ensure that future generations of our people, 18 they will be in the same position as the present 19 situation to negotiate with Manitoba Hydro and 20 determine their own futures. That is why I am so 21 sensitive about this issue. In order to respect 22 the teachings of my ancestors, in order to honour 23 my great grandfather's Treaty commitments, and to 24 fulfill the Crown's treaty promises, I cannot 25 accept nothing less. I ask for your 3369 1 understanding, and I ask for your mutual respect, 2 I ask for your mutual understanding. 3 I would like to say that I am not 4 indifferent to these people, because they say that 5 indifference is the essence of inhumanity. I am 6 not being indifferent, I am only speaking on 7 behalf of our children, the unborn, who are 8 watching us from the spirit world. Thank you. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. Are 10 there questions? Seeing none, thank you for your 11 presentation. 12 MR. LINKLATER: Mr. Chairman, I could 13 leave these and also provide my presentations in 14 The Pas. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 16 MR. LINKLATER: And also the 17 agreement. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We will 19 take a few minutes, just a few minutes of break, 20 just enough to stretch our legs a bit, until after 21 5:00 o'clock, and we have another presentation. 22 23 (HEARING RECESSED) 24 25 THE CHAIRMAN: I call upon Mr. Hart, 3370 1 Charlie Hart. Mr. Grewar. 2 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could you state your 3 name for the record, please? 4 MR. HART: Charlie James Hart, NCN 5 member. 6 MR. GREWAR: Are you aware that is an 7 offence in Manitoba to knowingly mislead this 8 Commission? 9 MR. HART: Yes. 10 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 11 only the truth in proceedings before this 12 Commission? 13 MR. HART: Yes, with God as my Creator 14 I will. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Can I ask for some 16 quiet please in the back? Thank you. 17 18 (CHARLIE HART: SWORN) 19 20 MR. HART: Mr. Chairman, I don't have 21 a written presentation. This is personal and 22 private and I speak from the heart, as I have 23 nothing in writing. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: That is why you are 25 called Mr. Hart. 3371 1 MR. HART: That's right. I have been 2 following these proceedings for the last three 3 weeks in Winnipeg and in Thompson here, and I have 4 heard a lot of expressions regarding the 5 infringement of my Treaty rights and how I should 6 practice my traditional ways by certain 7 self-appointed experts. 8 I grew up in a traditional way of 9 life. I have been trapping since I was eight 10 years old. At ten years I maintained my own dog 11 team. However, this was temporarily interrupted 12 when I got forced to go to residential school for 13 a period of time. I did, however, return to the 14 traditional way of life after I left school. But 15 then, after a number of years in the trapline, I 16 realized that the trapping industry was soon to 17 decline because of the escalating expenses that 18 are required to be able to continue living by the 19 fur trade. So that made me return and finish 20 school and attend university in order for me to 21 seek an alternative form of living. 22 Since then I have encouraged my own 23 children to complete their education so that they 24 can find their own method of providing a living 25 for themselves and their children. That is why I 3372 1 am in support of this development, because I see 2 no other alternative for my grandchildren, no 3 other alternative for them to survive. 4 I have heard blame on Hydro for the 5 declination of the fur trade, but there are other 6 factors that lead to that, and those factors are 7 the humane trapping legislation, the gun 8 legislation, and anti-fur lobbyists, animal 9 activists, and worldwide Wildlife Federation, and 10 people from Wildlands. Those legislations and 11 those lobbyists are the people that have infringed 12 on my Treaty rights to practice my traditional way 13 of life, and they started long before hydro 14 development ever started. It started back in 1930 15 with the introduction of the Natural Resources 16 Transfer Agreement. So putting blame on Hydro for 17 the infringement of my Treaty rights is absolutely 18 not correct, as far as I am concerned, but this is 19 only my opinion. 20 A lot of other legislations have 21 prevented me from practicing my traditional way of 22 life. Some of those include the Migratory Bird 23 Convention Act. 24 So that is one of the reasons why I 25 have encouraged my children to complete their 3373 1 education and seek an alternative way of life. 2 This is one opportunity for my grandchildren to 3 have a future. I for one respect the land because 4 I am trying to follow the traditional practices of 5 my ancestors. That is why I have insisted that 6 before any development even begins in our 7 traditional territory, I insist that we perform 8 sacred ceremonies before any land is disturbed, 9 because that is one way in which we as Aboriginal 10 people respect land. 11 I have been involved in the Northern 12 Flood Agreement negotiations back in the early 13 1980s, up to 1992. I was not involved with the 14 negotiations of the 1996 implementation agreement. 15 Back then the Province and Manitoba Hydro, like I 16 said earlier in questioning Mr. Spence, they were 17 the most stubborn bunch of individuals that I ever 18 had the opportunity to work with. However, a lot 19 has changed in this process. Back then, during 20 the development of the Churchill River Diversion, 21 they didn't even bother to consult with us. Now 22 they are consulting us, working with us, and 23 giving us the opportunity to be a partner in the 24 process. So there is a big difference from the 25 Churchill River Diversion. 3374 1 The Churchill River Diversion has 2 happened and there is no way anybody can reverse 3 that process, and to continue crying about it is 4 not going to help. 5 Mr. Chairman, this is all I need to 6 say about this process. It is an opportunity for 7 my grandchildren to be able to have a future. 8 Thank you very much. And I do not wish to 9 entertain any questions at this time. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Hart. 11 Were there other registered presenters? 12 MR. GREWAR: No, Mr. Chairman, that 13 concludes our list. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. This brings 15 us to the conclusion of the hearing in Thompson. 16 Before we formally adjourn, I wish to 17 indicate that we will restart, if I can call it 18 that, but we will re-open these hearings in The 19 Pas on Thursday at 9 a.m. 20 MR. GREWAR: 1:00 p.m., Mr. Chairman. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: That means we will be 22 going late that night. Mr. Grewar, do you have 23 any procedures matters? 24 MR. GREWAR: No, Mr. Chairman. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: In that case, I will 3375 1 call upon Mr. Sam Dysart, the elder, to bring us 2 the closing prayer. 3 MR. DYSART: Thank you. I am very 4 pleased to close this, but first I would like to 5 make a speech. 6 When we first started, I seen the 7 Chief walk up there and make a speech. Now the 8 elder speaks. But I will speak it in English to 9 be fair, for I respect them. If I speak in Cree 10 she won't be able to type the words. And also, I 11 respect the people at the back, and so I would 12 like to be recorded. If they ask me questions 13 back home, I will translate myself it into Cree. 14 The respect that I have for my elders, I have to 15 see and let them know what is going on. Thank 16 you. 17 Now, the easiest part is the closing 18 part. Me, as an elder, have been walking here for 19 two days listening, looking at people making their 20 speech and saying things. Some of them have a 21 clue, maybe some being there, but they keep 22 forgetting something. What Charlie was saying, my 23 friend, education is the key thing. The future 24 development team I work with gathered a lot of 25 information for this dam at Notigi. This might be 3376 1 useful for my children and grandchildren when it 2 goes ahead, or will not be useful until another 30 3 years when the other generation starts, but anyway 4 they will be very useful. When we built Notigi, 5 there was some information that was lost, or I 6 didn't see it stacked there. While we were 7 building Notigi, I was the foremen there, I got my 8 men from Nelson House, operators, shovel 9 operators, this kind of shovel. When they wanted 10 people to operate a crane, they phoned Winnipeg, 11 all over, in BC. One man in that turned out to be 12 a plumber, my brother-in-law, and he has got a 13 good job and a good paying job on our reserve. I 14 thank him for hanging on. 15 Now, what Carol was saying, Hydro was 16 having a meeting here, while I am building a dam, 17 they didn't negotiate properly. I came after the 18 dam was finished, I negotiated with the fishermen 19 and trappers. I got $1.7 million for them, I got 20 a fish house that is worth two and a half million 21 dollars. I went after Hydro -- this is where I 22 lied -- I said, Hydro, you flooded six of my 23 boats, also I lost six motors. They turned around 24 and gave me $60,000, I got six boats and seven 25 motors. When I lied I told -- the boys told me 3377 1 here, Sam, you have the extra motor. Thank you, 2 that is how I started my fishery. 3 When I came down to the meeting, it 4 was at the church where they had a meeting, 5 William Thomas senior was the interpreter. Nelson 6 Linklater, Norman's dad was the Chief before 7 Rodney. Charlie Sawatsky was for Hydro and Jim 8 Atkins, my friend. I got kicked out a couple of 9 times, but I didn't mind. I was really, really 10 fighting for my rights to have a job. We got the 11 job bush clearing, and the fight that we had, I 12 didn't want $250 an acre for my people, I was 13 telling them, that is what I get for burning down 14 with another contractor, I said I want 250 for 15 cutting, 250 for piling, and 250 for slashing it 16 down. So anyway that worked. I had 300 guys, 17 French men, people from all surrounding 18 communities, and as high as 300 people. We even 19 had a Mickey Mouse right up to a sasquatch, that 20 was my work force. And that is the truth. 21 So, anyway, what we are trying to do 22 now, now I will move here, right here where I am, 23 I would like to tell my children there, education 24 is very, very important. If we don't have the 25 project, at least we have a chance to have an 3378 1 education. Hydro is willing to pay and the 2 Government is willing to help us. The bad 3 students back there, one of these days, 30 years 4 from now, they will be standing in front of me 5 like this -- maybe I won't be alive, maybe I will 6 be gone, but, hopefully, if I live as long as my 7 dad lived, I will be standing here talking about 8 the projects. It is very hard for an elder to 9 speak, but at times that is the easiest thing to 10 do, for nobody questions you. 11 When I look at the project, the price 12 I have to pay is about this size, me alone and 13 every First Nation in our reserves, meaning 14 Winnipeg, Brandon, Thompson, South Indian, that is 15 eligible to vote -- I am not telling you where I 16 am going to put my X, that is my decision, if I 17 can see this properly done. And that my friend, 18 is the price our children have to pay if it 19 doesn't go right. Thank you. I will see you at 20 The Pas and I will make another speech. 21 Now, to make it all easier for us, I 22 will end this in a prayer which we all agree, we 23 will end it in silent prayer for times when an 24 elder is being disturbed, he prays, he thinks of 25 ways to seeing these, and forgiving people that 3379 1 disturb him. Last night I sat up to 3 o'clock. 2 So my good people, may the good Lord hear you, let 3 us pray and say in prayer -- bow down and I will 4 give you two minutes to pray with me. 5 6 (TWO MINUTES SILENCE) 7 8 MR. DYSART: Thank you, amen. 9 I am also a grandfather and a great 10 grandfather, and my wife is there, and my youngest 11 daughter and my son. Now, don't move, I have to 12 thank you. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: We are adjourned at 14 5:30 p.m. 15 16 (ADJOURNED AT 5:50 P.M.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25