3380 1 2 MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION 3 4 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT 5 Volume 14 6 7 Including List of Participants 8 9 10 11 Hearing 12 13 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project 14 15 Presiding: 16 Gerard Lecuyer, Chair 17 Kathi Kinew 18 Harvey Nepinak 19 Robert Mayer 20 Terry Sargeant 21 22 Thursday, March 25, 2004 23 Kikiwak Inn 24 The Pas, Manitoba 25 3381 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Clean Environment Commission: 4 Gerard Lecuyer Chairman 5 Terry Sargeant Member 6 Harvey Nepinak Member 7 Kathi Avery Kinew Member 8 Doug Abra Counsel to Commission 9 Rory Grewar Staff 10 CEC Advisors: 11 Mel Falk 12 Dave Farlinger 13 Jack Scriven 14 Jim Sandison 15 Jean McClellan 16 Brent McLean 17 Kyla Gibson 18 19 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation: 20 Chief Jerry Primrose 21 Elvis Thomas 22 Campbell MacInnes 23 Valerie Matthews Lemieux 24 25 3382 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Manitoba Conservation: 4 Larry Strachan 5 6 Manitoba Hydro/NCN: 7 Doug Bedford, Counsel 8 Bob Adkins, Counsel 9 Marvin Shaffer 10 Ed Wojczynski 11 Ken Adams 12 Carolyn Wray 13 Ron Mazur 14 Lloyd Kuczek 15 Cam Osler 16 Stuart Davies 17 David Hicks 18 Elizabeth Hicks 19 George Rempel 20 David Cormie 21 Alex Fleming 22 Marvin Shaffer 23 Blair McMahon 24 25 3383 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 4 5 Presenters: 6 Chief Clarence Easter - Chemawawin First nnation 7 Reg Meade - Northern Association of 8 Community Councils 9 Gary Hopper - Mayor of The Pas 10 Norval Desjarlais - MMF of The Pas Region 11 Joe Moose - Private 12 Jimmy D. Spence - Private 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3384 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 3 Number Page 4 5 OTH-1013: Submission by Darryl Montgomery 6 to CEC 3387 7 8 OTH-1014: Presentation slides submitted by 9 Clarence Easter, Chemawawin First 10 Nation 3481 11 12 OTH-1015: Presentation by Mr. Meade for the 13 Northern Association of Community 14 Councils 3492 15 16 OTH-1016: Presentation to the Clean 17 Environment Commission on the 18 Public Hearings on the Wuskwatim 19 Generation and Transmission Project 20 by Mayor Gary Hopper 3504 21 22 OTH-1017: Presentation by Mr. Desjarlais on 23 behalf of MMF 3544 24 25 3385 1 2 INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS 3 4 UNDERTAKING NO. PAGE 5 6 55 Advise what has been done to 7 address healing of people, lands, 8 and water for South Indian Lake, 9 Cross Lake, Grand Rapids 3529 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3386 1 Thursday, March 25, 2004 2 Upon commencing at 1:00 p.m. 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: We will begin as 5 quickly as possible. First to begin, I would call 6 upon elder Sam Dysart to say the prayer. 7 MR. DYSART: Thank you, welcome. I am 8 very glad to be at The Pas again, standing here as 9 an elder to pray for you and our communities, the 10 northern community. I hope we have a good turnout 11 today. Let us pray. You can pray the silent 12 prayer. I will pray in my own language so my 13 elders can understand. 14 15 (PRAYER) 16 (CREE SPOKEN) 17 18 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, before we 19 begin, I wonder if I might enter an exhibit? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Please proceed. 21 MR. GREWAR: This is simply the 22 written comments of Darryl Montgomery, who was 23 representing the Manitoba Metis Federation in 24 Thompson, and he made a presentation and indicated 25 that he would get the typed text to us. At that 3387 1 time, we did not assign an exhibit number. I 2 would like to do so now. The exhibit would be, 3 Darryl Montgomery's CEC submission, Manitoba Metis 4 Federation, and the filing number would be 5 OTH-1013. 6 7 (EXHIBIT OTH-1013: Submission by 8 Darryl Montgomery to CEC) 9 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Good 11 morning ladies and gentlemen, we appreciate the 12 opportunity to meet with you in The Pas. This is 13 the community which will be the terminal point of 14 the transmission line carrying electricity from 15 the project, resulting from the Wuskwatim 16 generation station, if and when it gets built. 17 I wish to thank the people of OCN for 18 welcoming the CEC in their community, and I also 19 take this opportunity to thank you in advance for 20 the contribution you will bring to this process so 21 that we, as Commissioners of the Clean Environment 22 Commission, will be better able to understand your 23 views and make the most enlightened 24 recommendations to the Minister in the best 25 interests of the First Nations of the north and 3388 1 for all of the people of Manitoba. 2 My name is Gerard Lecuyer. I am a 3 member of the Manitoba Clean Environment 4 Commission and the chair of this panel for the 5 Commission's Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission 6 Projects review. With me today are four other 7 Commissioners serving on this panel. To my right, 8 second from the end is Ms. Kathi Avery Kinew; to 9 my immediate right, Mr. Robert Mayer; on my left 10 Mr. Terry Sargeant; and to my extreme right, 11 Harvey Nepinak. Mr. Terry Sargeant was recently 12 appointed as chairperson of the Manitoba Clean 13 Environment Commission, as you may have read or 14 heard. 15 In addition to the Commission panel, I 16 would like to introduce the staff and advisors 17 that are assisting us with this review, including 18 the Commission secretary, Mr. Rory Grewar at the 19 end, the Commission administrative secretary, Ms. 20 Joyce Mueller, who is at the entrance and will 21 take your registrations; Commission counsel 22 Mr. Doug Abra of the firm Hill Abra and Dewar, 23 sitting right here; and from the technical 24 advisory team is Ms. Jean McLellan of Price 25 Waterhouse, she is sitting in the back; Mr. Dave 3389 1 Farlinger of Energy Consultants International; and 2 Mr. Mel Falk of Falk Environmental. 3 Before I continue, I would like to 4 explain that the Manitoba Clean Environment 5 Commission is an arm's length Provincial agency 6 that encourages and facilitates public involvement 7 in environmental matters. It is coupled with the 8 representatives of the Public Utilities Board for 9 this particular hearing. The panel will offer 10 advice and recommendations to the Government. The 11 Commission exercises its mandate through public 12 hearings, investigations, mediation and education. 13 Please see our website at www.manitobacec.ca for 14 information about the Commission and about this 15 public hearing. 16 The Commission operates under the 17 authority of the Manitoba Environment Act. It is 18 also directed by procedural guidelines to ensure 19 that the hearings remain fair and open forums for 20 the exchange of information and ideas. They 21 provide full opportunity for public involvement, 22 that is for you, the people of the community, to 23 be involved in the environmental assessment 24 process and to express your views on the needs for 25 and alternatives to electric energy. 3390 1 The Wuskwatim public hearing, we are 2 here today at the request of the Minister of 3 Conservation to conduct an integrated public 4 hearing respecting the Manitoba Hydro and 5 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation proposal for the 6 development of the Wuskwatim generation station 7 and associated transmission lines. 8 The Commission was mandated to conduct 9 the hearing to consider, firstly, the 10 justification, need, and alternatives to the 11 Wuskwatim proposals; and secondly, the potential 12 environmental, socioeconomic, and cultural effects 13 of the construction and operation of the Wuskwatim 14 proposals. 15 The Commission was requested to 16 conduct the hearing in general accordance with the 17 process guidelines respecting public hearings, 18 which include procedures for pre-hearing meetings, 19 conferences, and proprietary information. 20 Following the public hearing, the Commission shall 21 provide a report to the Minister of Conservation 22 pursuant to section 7 (3) of the Environment Act. 23 The hearing here in The Pas will go on 24 until this evening, with a break for dinner, and 25 we will reconvene as well tomorrow at 3391 1 9:00 o'clock, and we will adjourn somewhere around 2 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon tomorrow, or a 3 little sooner, if possible. 4 The Commission is convening the 5 hearing, has convened the meeting already for a 6 period of three weeks in Winnipeg. The hearings 7 started the beginning of March. And we have held 8 hearings, as I mentioned already, in Thompson on 9 Monday and Tuesday. We are now here in The Pas to 10 terminate the hearings in the north. 11 We will begin today with opening 12 remarks by Mr. Larry Strachan of the Manitoba 13 Conservation on the environmental assessment and 14 review process undertaken to date and the 15 licensing process to follow the public hearing. 16 Then the co-proponents, Manitoba Hydro 17 and Nisichawayasihk, will then give a presentation 18 on their need for and alternatives to the 19 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Projects, 20 and the Environmental Impact Statement for the 21 project. It will be an overview, and part of it 22 will be presented -- the portion which deals with 23 the transmission, as they will explain, will be 24 also presented partly in the Cree language. 25 Once the proponents have completed 3392 1 their presentation, the participants here may then 2 proceed to ask questions of the proponents 3 relating to the proposals in order to obtain 4 clarification or a better understanding of what 5 has been said, or to express views and opinions. 6 Once the panel has sat down, you will get an 7 opportunity to make your own presentations. All 8 presenters at the end of their questioning will 9 have an opportunity to re-examine their witnesses. 10 Before moving on to the presentations, 11 there are just a few items that I want to mention. 12 You should take the opportunity to register at the 13 entrance with Ms. Joyce Mueller. This will give 14 you an opportunity to receive a copy of the report 15 of the public hearings. Secondly, please provide 16 copies of your presentation, if at all possible, 17 to Ms. Mueller at the entrance, or to Mr. Grewar 18 here. And we will make copies if you haven't got 19 any, we are equipped to do that, so that copies 20 may be shared with the other participants. We 21 ourselves require copies of the presentations, so 22 if possible, we would appreciate you to leave us 23 with copies. 24 We have also, at the entrance, you 25 have also the possibility to register to indicate 3393 1 that you wish to make a presentation, and that is 2 open to everyone who is here. When you make your 3 presentation or you want to address the panel or 4 the proponents, please come forward and state your 5 name clearly so that we can record all that is 6 stated here. You will see the lady there is there 7 to make a verbatim transcript of all of the 8 proceedings, and afterwards this information is 9 available on the website at www.reidreporting.com, 10 Reid spelled R-E-I-D. You can also make 11 arrangements with the transcription service to 12 purchase copies of the transcript in various 13 formats. I think you can do so by leaving your 14 name and information with the reporter, or by 15 calling 947-9774 in Winnipeg. 16 When the hearings are completed -- 17 first of all, they are not completed here in The 18 Pas. We will continue the hearings when we get 19 back to Winnipeg -- but when the hearings are 20 completed, we will prepare a report for the 21 Minister with our advice, observations, and 22 recommendations. And some three months 23 approximately after the report -- after the 24 hearings, the report will be forwarded to the 25 Minister. It will be he who determines when to 3394 1 release the report. 2 I just want to make one last comment 3 about the role of the Clean Environment 4 Commission. We have, as I already have stated, a 5 mandate from the Minister to hold these hearings, 6 but we have no authority to deal with anything 7 that is not related, within the guidelines for 8 this, for the proposed projects. So I say that 9 just so you know that, unfortunately, we are not 10 here as messengers sent by the Great Spirit to 11 solve all issues or problems that you may wish we 12 could solve. We can not leave here having turned 13 your life into heaven. Unfortunately, we haven't 14 got that mandate or that power. 15 That having been said, I finish these 16 comments and invite Mr. Strachan to come forward 17 and speak to us on behalf of Conservation. 18 MR. STRACHAN: Thank you, 19 Mr. Chairman, panel members, ladies and gentlemen. 20 My name is Larry Strachan. I am employed as the 21 Director of the Environmental Approvals Branch out 22 of Manitoba Conservation, and in that capacity it 23 is my responsibility to administer the 24 environmental assessment and licensing process 25 under the Manitoba Environment Act, and these 3395 1 projects are being reviewed under that Act. 2 I would like to share with you a brief 3 summary of the cooperative environmental review 4 process that we have conducted to date on the 5 projects under review. 6 There are two projects under review, 7 as the chairman has indicated, a generation 8 station and associated transmission lines. These 9 projects require both approvals environmentally 10 from Manitoba and Canada. Environment Act 11 licenses are required for both projects. And what 12 is known as a Federal comprehensive study, review, 13 and report is required for the generation station. 14 We began the review process by 15 developing a project administration team process 16 under the Manitoba/Canada agreement for 17 environmental assessment. We did this because 18 both Provincial and Federal approvals were 19 required, so we wanted to have one process to deal 20 with both sets of approvals. The process was 21 administered by Manitoba. To generate the 22 information required to review the proposals, we 23 used the Manitoba Environment Act process. 24 As the Chairman has indicated, the 25 Clean Environment Commission is an important 3396 1 component of that process, and the information 2 from the hearing will be used by the regulatory 3 agencies to make final decisions. The information 4 generated must adhere to the responsibilities of 5 both sets of legislation that are the Manitoba 6 Environment Act and the Canadian Environmental 7 Assessment Act. 8 Proposals were filed with us for the 9 projects in December of 2001, and in order to 10 guide the proponents in developing an 11 Environmental Impact Statement on the projects, we 12 developed what is known as a set of Environmental 13 Impact Statement guidelines. We consulted with 14 the public through meetings of this Clean 15 Environment Commission and finalized those 16 guidelines in April of 2002. 17 Following the guidelines, the 18 proponents prepared Environmental Impact 19 Statements, both on the biophysical aspects of the 20 projects and on the needs and alternatives for the 21 projects, and filed those statements with us in 22 April of 2003. We then subjected those statements 23 and information to public and technical review, 24 and we also established, under the Manitoba 25 Environment Act, a program that's called 3397 1 participant assistance to allow individuals to 2 apply for funding to assist them in participating 3 in this hearing. 4 As a result of the public and 5 technical review of the Environmental Impact 6 Statements we required two supplemental filings 7 from the proponents, and also our Federal 8 colleagues from Fisheries and Oceans Canada 9 required more detailed information regarding the 10 fisheries aspects of the generation proposal. 11 In October of 2003, we determined that 12 the information filed with us, being the 13 Environmental Impact Statements and the 14 supplemental filings, were sufficient and adequate 15 for review by the Manitoba Clean Environment 16 Commission. We submitted those to the Commission 17 for that review. 18 As I indicated earlier, the 19 information and advice from these public hearings 20 will be very important for our final review and 21 decisions, and we look forward to receiving that 22 advice, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much. 23 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, we have a 24 limited number of copies left of Mr. Strachan's 25 presentation, if there is anyone that would like a 3398 1 copy to take away. It was a document that was 2 filed as an exhibit some time ago, but we now have 3 limited copies if anyone wants to ask me for them. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Periodically during the 5 ongoing process of these hearings, we will have 6 moments to stretch our legs. And at that time if 7 you wish to register at the front, if you forgot 8 to do so, or if you are interested in obtaining 9 copies, as Mr. Grewar has indicated, you may wish 10 to come forth then and pick them up. 11 I will now turn the floor over to the 12 proponents to present an overview of their 13 project, of the proposals. 14 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, it may be 15 helpful to mention if anybody wishes to hear the 16 presentation in Cree, there is simultaneous 17 translation transmitters available at the back of 18 the room, and that will enable you to hear any of 19 the English that is spoken translated 20 simultaneously into Cree. 21 CHIEF PRIMOSE: Good afternoon to all 22 of the people that are here this afternoon. My 23 name is Jerry Primrose, I am Chief of the 24 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. I would like to 25 thank the Commissioners and the other participants 3399 1 for this opportunity to once again speak about the 2 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Projects, 3 Mr. Chairman. 4 We are very pleased to be here in The 5 Pas, the nation of our Cree brothers and sisters 6 of the Opaskwayak Cree Nation. Today the citizens 7 of The Pas will hear about the Wuskwatim projects 8 and have the opportunity to ask questions of our 9 presenters and bring their comments to this 10 Commission. Our team and I welcome this 11 opportunity for their contributions. Wuskwatim is 12 important for all of us in the north. Our two 13 First Nations have shared many things over 14 thousand of years in our northern land, and we 15 continue to work together to preserve our Cree 16 culture and to survive as people. We have many 17 things in common. 18 Earlier this week, Commissioners, you 19 heard me speak of our aspirations to find ways to 20 improve our economy as a way to improve our lives. 21 Here in The Pas there is much evidence of the 22 success of our brothers and sisters of the 23 Opaskwayak Cree Nation and we are proud of their 24 success. Like NCN, they own a successful hotel, 25 this beautiful building that we are in this 3400 1 afternoon. Here in The Pas, they also own the 2 successful OCN Blizzard Junior Hockey Team, the 3 IGA, the Otineka shopping mall just next door, a 4 successful gravel and sand business, a Shell gas 5 bar that is probably one of the highest grossing 6 gas bars in Western Canada, a mobile home 7 subdivision, a casino, and more. They are one of 8 the most progressive First Nations in Canada, and 9 I congratulate Chief Frank Whitehead, his Council, 10 and the people of OCN for their achievement. 11 This is the kind of economic success 12 that we are planning and working towards as we 13 move forward with the Wuskwatim project. We know 14 it is not the only thing that will bring us the 15 economic sustainability that we seek, but it will 16 be an important milestone on a path to a better 17 life for our NCN members. 18 My people desperately need to trust 19 that things are going to get better, not worse. 20 We need to have something positive to focus on 21 that is not in the past, and not the Churchill 22 River Diversion. You have heard throughout the 23 hearings the pent up hurt, anger, and mistrust 24 over the CRD, but I hope you have also heard in 25 the background that it is about more than just CRD 3401 1 and Hydro. If you listen closely, you will also 2 have heard the voices of a people who have not 3 been in control of their own lives, people who 4 have had things done to them and who have not had 5 enough opportunity to do for themselves in their 6 own way. You, the Commission, have been a 7 convenient and available means to get their 8 feelings and concerns "on the record." I 9 understand this, I see this as a way to move 10 forward, and that is why I can respect those 11 voices that speak against the project. 12 We are a community that is changing, 13 and change is not easy, especially when change in 14 the past has done you no favours. We need to 15 build a history of success to offset and balance 16 failures of the past. That is why we are trying 17 so hard to ensure this project is done in the 18 right way for the right reasons. 19 As you have heard, our focus as we 20 move forward has been to protect our lands and 21 waters, to protect our Aboriginal rights and be 22 sensitive to the rights of other First Nations, 23 and to negotiate a partnership that will give us, 24 that will give our people the best opportunity for 25 a strong future. 3402 1 We have also tried to keep in mind the 2 interests of the people of South Indian Lake, even 3 though they are on a separate track seeking their 4 own reserve. Under law we are obligated to them 5 and we support them and respect their goals, even 6 though the process of separation has not been easy 7 and is still ongoing. 8 9 In the long term, we expect that that 10 we will get the financial benefits from the share 11 of our revenues from Wuskwatim, and in the long 12 term, say starting 6 to 8 years after the project 13 starts up operation, we are going to see the 14 opportunity for rate decreases compared to what 15 they would otherwise be -- or lower rate increases 16 perhaps, depending on the situation. So we see 17 Wuskwatim as being very positive. That finishes 18 the need for and alternatives. 19 We are now going to move on to the 20 environmental presentation and Mr. Cam Osler is 21 going to start that. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Kinew. 23 MS. AVERY KINEW: Could you please 24 tell the people here what the closest register is 25 for all of that material, where they can reach it 3403 1 in this area? 2 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: There is one in The 3 Pas. 4 MS. AVERY KINEW: Public library? 5 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: I believe that is 6 right, you must be right. We know there is one in 7 The Pas and I believe it is in the public 8 library -- yes, it has just been confirmed. So 9 all of this material and any of the other material 10 put on the public registry is available locally in 11 The Pas at the public registry. There is also one 12 at Nelson House. There is also, in the 13 Tataskweyak or Split Lake public registry in 14 Winnipeg -- I am not sure where the other ones 15 are -- it is also available on the Manitoba Hydro 16 website, NCN has a website as well, but all of 17 this information is on the Manitoba Hydro website 18 as well under the Wuskwatim portion of the 19 website. 20 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you. 21 Those in our community that close 22 their eyes, ears, and hearts to this project are 23 hard to reach. Some have simply refused to come 24 to meetings that we have held and turned our 25 information away at their doors, and then claimed 3404 1 they have not received any information or 2 consultation. But we continue to try to reach out 3 and offset the misinformation that active 4 political opponents have spread about the project. 5 Some of it you have seen and heard at this 6 hearing. 7 Today, I would like to introduce you 8 to some of our community consultants who are 9 working in Nelson House, South Indian Lake, 10 Winnipeg, Brandon, and Thompson to keep our 11 members informed. I would like the consultants of 12 NCN to please stand and raise your hand, or stand 13 up so we can see you. We also have seven support 14 staff here with us, so if I could get NCN members, 15 consultants, and support staff to stand, please, I 16 would appreciate that. 17 These NCN members are part of our 18 future development team that Councillor Thomas 19 heads. Commissioners, these people have a hard 20 job. They try their best to reach everyone in our 21 community to talk to them about the project, 22 distribute information about it, translate some of 23 it, and be available to find answers to member 24 questions. 25 You have to understand the project and 3405 1 try to communicate to our members, often in Cree. 2 We know it is likely impossible for everyone to 3 know and understand the complexities of a project 4 like this, but we continue to try our best with 5 the help of our technical consultants, who are 6 frequently used to explain the project and prepare 7 information and answer questions. 8 Our people are very concerned not to 9 repeat the impacts of CRD. Nothing is more 10 important to us than our environment and our 11 people. Protecting both is our primary concern. 12 Of course, the proposed Wuskwatim project will 13 have an environmental impact, but the impact is 14 minimal, especially when balanced against the 15 benefits. 16 As you have heard, the flooding will 17 be less than half a square kilometre, and this is 18 because we said no to the original high head dam 19 that was proposed for the project, because the 20 flooding would have been substantial, and that was 21 unacceptable to us. We used our traditional 22 knowledge, that combined with western science, 23 equals sustainable development for us and the 24 north. 25 This knowledge helped us not only in 3406 1 the planning for the Wuskwatim dam sites and 2 roads, but also for the transmission line routes 3 for this project. We asked for several changes to 4 the routes so that the important cultural sites 5 would not be disturbed and to protect our resource 6 area from too easy access that would harm it. At 7 the same time we wanted to provide better access 8 to their resource management area immediately 9 south of Wuskwatim. 10 Everything we have done in working 11 with Manitoba Hydro towards the proposed 12 development has been for our future generations. 13 We are here for our children and their children. 14 We are working to change the status quo, but we 15 need the resources to do that. We need new homes, 16 education for our kids, and employment. So we 17 have to act to find solutions for our problems or 18 our problems will grow. 19 As we have told you, living off the 20 land is no longer an option for the majority of 21 our people. We no longer have a hunting economy. 22 Our young people have their own ideas about what 23 they want to do. Our young people want to 24 maintain our Cree culture, but they also want to 25 be all that they can, and chose to be in the 3407 1 professions and trades and to be part of Canada's 2 business, political, cultural, health, social and 3 arts world. They have the right to live as well 4 as anyone else, with the same opportunity. No one 5 can deny them this. 6 Commissioners, in the audience today 7 are good examples of our young people, our future 8 leaders. I would also like you to meet three of 9 them. First one is Geraldine Spence -- can you 10 please stand up? Geraldine is 22 years old. She 11 expects to graduate with a Bachelor of Science 12 from the University of Manitoba and enroll in 13 Dentistry in the fall. Her hope is to establish 14 her practice in Nelson House when she completes 15 her Dentistry program. Also one of the other 16 young NCN members here today is Willy Moore. 17 Willy is also 22 years old. He has a dream to 18 establish his own engineering firm after he 19 graduates with a degree in Civil Engineering from 20 the University of Manitoba and Red River College 21 in 2005. Also I would like you to meet Tiffany 22 Yetman -- Tiffany, please stand up. Tiffany is 19 23 years old and she is a second year Bachelor of 24 Arts student at the University of Manitoba. She 25 has plans to be a physiotherapist when she 3408 1 graduates. And also there is more young people 2 like Geraldine, Willy, and Tiffany, who deserve a 3 positive supportive environment and the resources 4 to help them succeed. Our First Nation is very 5 proud of these young people. 6 So we are here today not out of 7 self-interest of a few people, but in support of 8 Wuskwatim for the opportunities it represents to 9 create a better future for these young people, and 10 their children, and their generations to come. 11 In closing, I want to thank the Chair 12 and the Commission for your respectful approach to 13 our people here in the north, and especially the 14 opportunity that we have had as a Cree people to 15 hear our language spoken so extensively here in 16 the traditional lands, in our traditional lands. 17 With that, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, I wish 18 to thank you for the opportunities I have had to 19 make presentations to yourself and to the 20 communities in the various parts of Manitoba. 21 Thank you. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 23 MR. ADAMS: Good afternoon 24 Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, ladies 25 and gentlemen. Next time we do this we are going 3409 1 to switch the order so I don't always have to 2 follow that act. 3 My name is Ken Adams, I am the 4 vice-president of power supply of Manitoba Hydro. 5 Today, we are very pleased to continue our 6 presentation of the Wuskwatim Generating and 7 Transmission Projects. We look forward to 8 continuing what has been a very vigorous 9 discussion regarding the merits. 10 If we do proceed with these projects, 11 it will be the first northern generating station 12 we will have commenced in nearly 20 years. Since 13 then we have thoroughly reviewed our approach to 14 such developments. Our current plans embody both 15 our new way of cooperating with local Aboriginal 16 people and our commitment to environmental 17 stewardship. 18 In 1992, Manitoba Hydro became one of 19 the first major organizations in Canada to adopt 20 its own principles of sustainable development. 21 Along with our corporate vision and mission 22 statement, our sustainable development principles 23 provide the back drop against which we evaluate 24 all potential projects and programs. Our business 25 environment is extremely complex and is 3410 1 continually evolving. It reflects the changing 2 and diverse perspectives of our customers, our 3 owners, and other stakeholders. Our business 4 environment is also affected by unfolding events 5 throughout the world, including global issues such 6 as climate change, and by events throughout North 7 America, such as the structural changes in the 8 electricity. The Wuskwatim project that we are 9 proposing has been shaped by all of these 10 influences. 11 We firmly believe that the Wuskwatim 12 development is an excellent project when reviewed 13 from each of an environmental, a financial, and a 14 social perspective. That is the so-called triple 15 bottom line. I personally have worked in the 16 hydro power business for nearly 40 years, and I am 17 convinced that this project is an excellent 18 example of sustainable development in action. It 19 fully reflects the core values and strategic 20 priorities recommended by the World Commission of 21 Dams in 2000, and is fully consistent with the 22 International Hydro Power Association's 23 sustainability guidelines released in February of 24 this year. As I noted earlier, Wuskwatim marks 25 the introduction of a fundamentally new and 3411 1 different approach to the development of 2 Manitoba's hydroelectric resources. 3 I would like to emphasize five aspects 4 of this difference. The first is that we are 5 proposing to advance its in-service date by about 6 10 years from what would be required if we were 7 building only to serve Manitoba customers. This 8 will help us continue to participate in the very 9 highly competitive but very lucrative export 10 market. Continued success in this export market 11 is essential for us to be able to continue to 12 offer low electricity prices in Manitoba. 13 The second aspect is that, based in 14 large part on what we have learned during our 15 consultations, Wuskwatim has been deliberately 16 designed as a low impact project. The original 17 design, as Chief Primrose said, was revised to 18 reduce the size from about 350 megawatts to 19 200 megawatts, and to virtually eliminate any new 20 flooding. It was also revised so that its 21 operation would be restricted to what we call 22 daily run-of-the-river in order to limit water 23 level fluctuations both upstream and downstream. 24 Also, through the consultation process, we have 25 selected transmission line, access road, and 3412 1 construction camp locations that respect 2 environmental, cultural, and local community 3 values. 4 The third aspect that makes this 5 project different from previous ones is the 6 unprecedented extent of the consultation that has 7 taken place. Manitoba Hydro initiated 8 consultations with NCN in about 1997, 1998. 9 Subsequently, starting in 2001, Manitoba Hydro and 10 NCN jointly have consulted with every community in 11 the project area, whether they are in the 12 immediate vicinity, upstream, downstream, near the 13 transmission facilities, or just in the region and 14 interested in the project. Excluding our meetings 15 with NCN and NCN members, excluding the meetings 16 with the regulatory authorities and the 17 proceedings in front of this Commission, we have 18 participated in almost 100 meetings with various 19 interested parties. And to date we have filed 20 binders with over 10 feet of written material 21 explaining the project, and we have made this 22 available to the whole world through our website. 23 I doubt that there has ever been a comparable 24 project in Canada with such a comprehensive 25 community and public consultation process. 3413 1 The fourth difference from previous 2 projects is that we have worked and we continue to 3 work very hard with the Provincial and Federal 4 governments, and the communities situated along 5 the Burntwood and Lower Nelson Rivers, to 6 establish a job training program well before the 7 project starts. This program will ensure that 8 northern Aboriginal people can develop the skills 9 needed to qualify for the higher skilled, higher 10 paid jobs that will be available with this project 11 and on any other projects that we or others may 12 undertake in the region. It will also help them 13 prepare for long-term employment in the operation 14 and maintenance of the facilities, or at other 15 locations. 16 The fifth aspect of this project which 17 I want to talk about, and which makes it 18 fundamentally different from anything that we have 19 ever done before, and it is also the one of which 20 we are most proud, is our partnership arrangement 21 with the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. As Chief 22 Primrose explained, NCN has participated as a full 23 partner in all of the planning activities, the 24 public and community consultation processes, the 25 open houses, the environmental assessments, and 3414 1 all other aspects of the project. It is fair to 2 say that it has been a very interesting journey 3 for both of us to date, and we certainly look 4 forward to a long and mutually beneficial 5 association with NCN. 6 Before we move to the detailed 7 presentation of the Wuskwatim project, it is 8 appropriate for me to confirm Manitoba Hydro's 9 intentions with regard to certain other potential 10 sources of electricity supply. We will continue 11 to pursue energy conservation and demand 12 management, or PowerSmart programs in our 13 language, to the maximum level at which they are 14 economically and financially viable. We will 15 continue to pursue system efficiencies, or 16 supply-side enhancement in our terminology, again 17 to the maximum level which is economically viable. 18 We continue to explore the possibility of what are 19 often called alternative energy sources, and we 20 have assumed that over the next five years we will 21 be able to purchase or construct at least 22 250 megawatts worth of these sorts of energy 23 sources without any financial, negative financial 24 impact. In fact, we don't see these energy 25 sources as competitors to the Wuskwatim project, 3415 1 but rather as complimentary. They are not 2 mutually exclusive. 3 Returning to the Wuskwatim project, 4 Manitoba Hydro is fully aware of the importance of 5 its activities in Manitoba, and that our actions 6 today will leave a legacy for future Manitobans. 7 Manitoba Hydro and NCN jointly are confident that 8 when viewed in its entirety, we will be able to 9 demonstrate that Wuskwatim will provide a source 10 of clean, renewal energy that will displace fossil 11 fuels throughout other parts of central North 12 America. It will provide financial and 13 reliability benefits to Manitoba Hydro's domestic 14 customers. And we will demonstrate that it will 15 be profitable to both Manitoba Hydro and to NCN. 16 We will also demonstrate that the 17 environmental effects of the project are not 18 significant and, in fact, when viewed on a global 19 basis, there will be a net environmental benefit. 20 We will demonstrate that the projects 21 will provide an economic stimulus to Manitoba, and 22 particularly here in Northern Manitoba, and we 23 will be assured that the risks associated with the 24 proposed development are relatively low and 25 readily manageable. 3416 1 At this point, I would like to turn 2 the presentation over to Councillor Elvis Thomas, 3 who is the NCN Councillor with the future 4 development portfolio, amongst others, and Mr. Ed 5 Wojczynski, who is Manitoba Hydro's division 6 manager of power planning and development. 7 Councillor Thomas and Mr. Wojcznski have had the 8 opportunity for preparing and guiding all of our 9 activities through this review process, and they 10 will introduce and explain the rest of the 11 presentation. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 13 MR. THOMAS: Just to introduce to you 14 the panel that we have working with us today, we 15 have had a number of different panels during the 16 course of these hearings. We have had the needs 17 for and alternatives to -- 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Raise the mike a little 19 higher. 20 MR. THOMAS: Are we all set? What I 21 just said is we have had different people on 22 different panels. First we had a need for and 23 alternatives to panel, and we also have an 24 Environmental Impact Statement panel. The 25 previous ones I won't go through, but the current 3417 1 panel that is going to be doing the presentation 2 today, I will introduce. One, first is myself, as 3 the future development portfolio council member. 4 I have with me Cam MacInnes, he is with Unis, and 5 he works with NCN providing us with advice. Cam 6 Osler is with InterGroup. And we have George 7 Rempel with TetrES. We have Stuart Davies with 8 North/South Consultants. We have Elizabeth Hicks 9 with ND Lea. And over here, of course, we have 10 Mr. Ed Wojczynski, he is the division manager for 11 power planning with Manitoba Hydro. And we have 12 also Ken Adams, who you have seen just speak a 13 little while ago, vice-president for power supply 14 with Manitoba Hydro. Lynn Wray is with Manitoba 15 Hydro, and she is one of the most knowledgeable 16 people when it comes to talking about financial 17 situations. So these are the people that will 18 constitute the panel for today, and we are going 19 to do a presentation for you. So with that, we 20 will proceed. Ed, I think you might want to say 21 something. 22 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: I will be brief. We 23 have booklets of the overheads that we are going 24 to present. They are available outside on the 25 table, so if you wanted them, it might be easier 3418 1 to follow. We are not going to use all of the 2 overheads that are in the booklet but the majority 3 of them. We have another booklet that if you want 4 to have, it is about three times or four times as 5 fat, and it is all of the overheads that we used 6 in Winnipeg over the course of the past few days. 7 If anybody wants those, we have those available as 8 well. 9 We are going to have a few brief 10 presentations right away now. The first one is 11 going to be on a project description, it is a 12 description of what is Wuskwatim, and where is it 13 going to be, and how is it going to be constructed 14 and operated? Mr. George Rempel is going to come 15 up and do that right away. While he is getting 16 set up, I will explain that we are also going to 17 have presentations on how is Wuskwatim going to be 18 operated, and what is the economic and financial 19 need for Wuskwatim, and also a discussion on 20 alternatives. Then we are going to talk about the 21 generation EIS, or Environmental Impact Statement. 22 And then we are going to have a computerized Power 23 Point presentation on the transmission 24 environmental studies with a voice explanation or 25 interpretation in Cree. And then Councillor 3419 1 Thomas is going to finish off some closing 2 remarks. So we will start now with the project 3 description. 4 MR. REMPEL: Good afternoon, ladies 5 and gentlemen. As Mr. Wojcznski explained, I will 6 be describing the project description, 7 particularly the generation project. There are 8 two projects, but I will be covering the 9 generation project only, as the Power Point 10 presentation that Mr. Wojcznski talked about with 11 the Cree voice over will discuss the transmission 12 line project. 13 Firstly, I will give you some 14 perspective of where the projects are located. We 15 have a map here to show you in general. Here is 16 the City of Thompson. There is the community of 17 Nelson House. This is the location of the 18 proposed generation station, it is about 37 19 kilometres southeast of the community of Nelson 20 House on the Burntwood River. There will be 21 transmission lines connecting this station to the 22 City of Thompson, a station at the City of 23 Thompson, and also to existing stations at Snow 24 Lake and the existing station here at The Pas. 25 The two projects will consist of a 3420 1 number of main components. This station here at 2 the Wuskwatim location here will have 3 200 megawatts. It will be located on Taskinigup 4 Falls on the Burntwood River. There will be an 5 access road from PR 391, 48 kilometres long all 6 weather road. There will also be a construction 7 camp at the site. That site will house up to 625 8 people. It will be a temporary site, dismantled 9 after construction. And there will be other 10 infrastructure such as a water treatment plant, 11 wastewater treatment plant, quarries and that sort 12 of thing. 13 A six-year construction schedule is 14 planned. That would see completion in 2010 and 15 first power in 2010. The generation station will 16 require transmission lines, about 350 kilometres 17 in total in length. They will connect this 18 station into the existing hydro transmission 19 systems at Thompson, Snow Lake and The Pas. That 20 is an overview. 21 The project has been designed to cause 22 minimal flooding. A great deal of care has been 23 taken in the design and planning. It will be a 24 low head, a low height of dam. It will minimize 25 environmental effects by reducing the flooding to 3421 1 less than half a square kilometre. That low head 2 design produces about 200 megawatts. A higher 3 height of dam would have produced more power, 4 350 megawatts, but with that higher head would 5 have come a lot more flooding, about 140 square 6 kilometres. That has not been chosen. So this 7 low head design that is being proposed will 8 actually have the smallest amount of flooding of 9 any station of the hydroelectric system of 10 Manitoba Hydro. 11 This is a site plan at the Wuskwatim 12 and Taskinigup Falls. I will take a few minutes 13 to go through this. This is Wuskwatim Lake here, 14 this is direction north, in this direction here. 15 Wuskwatim Lake is quite a large lake. The outflow 16 is through Wuskwatim Falls. The water leaves 17 here, tumbles down some falls, proceeds about 1 18 and a half kilometres downstream to Taskinigup 19 Falls where there is a bigger drop, and then the 20 water continues down the Burntwood River. The 21 proposal is to close off these falls here with a 22 main dam. There will be a powerhouse and a 23 spillway constructed. The powerhouse will have 24 three turbines which will capture the falling 25 water. There will be about 22 metres of head that 3422 1 will be captured in these turbines and converted 2 to electric energy. There will be a spillway to 3 take the flow that is in excess of the capacity of 4 the three turbines. Almost all of the time the 5 water will flow through one, two, or three of the 6 turbines. This distance here is about 1 and a 7 half kilometres, and the water will rise about 7 8 metres that interval. That will cause the half 9 square kilometre of flooding that I talked about. 10 It will be a band of shoreline from 11 about 25 metres to about 300 metres that will be 12 flooded. The trees will be cleared in advance of 13 flooding. The total flooded area is about half a 14 square kilometre. 15 At present this water level in 16 Wuskwatim Lake, it varies from season to season 17 depending on how much water is available for the 18 Churchill River Diversion. The water varies about 19 1.7 metres in the course of the 18 years or so 20 that we have had, in the past while with the 21 Churchill River Diversion and the augmented flow 22 program. It is about 1.7 metres with most of the 23 water being at 233.6 metres, on average that has 24 been the height. That will now be held at 234.0 25 almost all of the time, and the water will flow 3423 1 through here. There will be channels excavated 2 here. The extra excavation will be piled up here, 3 and the water will proceed down here and then 4 through the dam downstream. There is, by the way, 5 a picture of the completed dam at the back on the 6 wall so that you can see how it might look in the 7 future. 8 I will talk now about how the dam will 9 affect the water levels in the region. Firstly, 10 just to give you a bit of orientation, here is 11 Nelson House on Footprint Lake, here is Threepoint 12 Lake, the Burntwood River flowing downstream, 13 Early Morning Rapids, then we proceed to Wuskwatim 14 Lake, the proposed station at Taskinigup Falls, 15 and then further downstream, Opegano Lake, 16 Birchtree Lake, and then Thompson. I will 17 describe now how the water levels will change. 18 There will be no change in water level in 19 Threepoint or Footprint Lake. In fact, there will 20 be no change upstream of Early Morning Rapids. 21 The water level variations that exist now, the 22 patterns that exist now in these areas here, 23 Footprint, Threepoint Lake, will continue just as 24 they have for the last 18 years. 25 Downstream of Early Morning Rapids, we 3424 1 get into the area that is controlled by the dam. 2 So this will be a very flat surface here. It will 3 almost always be near the upper end of the present 4 range. It will be within about 13 centimeters or 5 five inches almost all of the time, that is of 6 course excluding wind and wave effects. So this 7 will be a very flat surface to the foot or base of 8 those rapids. It will not affect the rapids. It 9 will not affect the water levels upstream of the 10 Early Morning Rapids. 11 As we go downstream to Wuskwatim Lake, 12 the water level will change as the number of 13 turbines changes -- as the number of turbines 14 operating changes. For example, there will be two 15 turbines running at night and three turbines 16 during the day when there is more power demand. 17 That will result in a little more water flowing 18 out. And even though the water level on a daily 19 basis, it is a daily run-of-the-river plant, on a 20 daily basis the water coming into Wuskwatim Lake 21 will be the same as what left over a 24-hour 22 period. But during the day at any given hour 23 there may be small changes in releases. 24 That relates to the number of turbines 25 operating. When you go from two to three 3425 1 turbines, for example, or one to two turbines, 2 there will be a change in the water level here 3 that will be up to 1.3 metres, 4.2 feet, under 4 normal open water conditions. That change in the 5 tail race or the river here will be smoothed out 6 as we go downstream. 7 As we get to Opegano, it will be a 8 maximum of .45 metres or one and a half feet, 9 typically about 4 inches. As we go downstream 10 further, another 14 kilometres or so, we get to 11 Birchtree Lake, and by this time the daily water 12 level changes will not be noticeable, but they 13 will be up to .1 metres or about 3 or 4 inches, 14 excluding wind and wave effects, and past that 15 there will be no effect at all. So the water 16 levels will change a little bit from Birchtree 17 Lake to the base of Early Morning Rapids. That is 18 the only area that is affected in terms of water 19 level changes brought about by Wuskwatim 20 Generating Station. 21 That is an overview of the generating 22 station. Normally I would describe the 23 transmission line project, but that will be 24 covered in the other presentation shortly. So at 25 this time I would like to turn it back to Ed 3426 1 Wojczynski and he will talk about potential water 2 level effects elsewhere in the system. 3 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Thank you. So I will 4 be speaking on system operations, and specifically 5 the potential for water regime changes due to 6 Wuskwatim itself. I should explain just very 7 briefly, when we say water regime, what does that 8 mean? We are talking about the flows in the 9 rivers and the levels in the rivers and the lakes. 10 That is what we mean by water regime. I will be 11 speaking about that in this part of the 12 presentation in regard to what will Wuskwatim 13 cause to be different. 14 I should just give a bit of background 15 that, as George just explained, Wuskwatim will be 16 around 200 megawatts of new development. That is 17 in addition to our existing system, which is about 18 five and a half thousand megawatts of generation 19 of megawatts. So adding a 200-megawatt station is 20 a small addition, and what we would expect based 21 on our experience and our judgment is that adding 22 that small addition would only result in a small 23 change in the operation of our existing system, 24 and I will explain that further right away. 25 But our overall conclusion is there 3427 1 will not be any significant changes in the water 2 levels in the rest of our system, except for the 3 area around the Wuskwatim Generating Station 4 itself that George had just explained. 5 So I will start off by explaining in 6 regard to the Churchill River Diversion, or CRD. 7 Fundamentally, the CRD will not change in its 8 operation from the way it has been and is 9 operating at this time. The design and planning 10 for Wuskwatim assumed that the CRD will continue 11 in its current form and will continue to operate 12 under the same rules and the same approach as we 13 have been and are using. And that includes what 14 we call -- well, it is the annual modifications to 15 the interim license for the CRD that is called the 16 augmented flow program that has already been in 17 place for 18 years, we assume that as well in the 18 Wuskwatim operation, we assume that will continue. 19 So the Wuskwatim will not change the CRD flow 20 patterns except in the local area of Wuskwatim, 21 and that is because what we are going to do is 22 some daily shaping of the flows at Wuskwatim. And 23 George explained a little bit about that, we mean 24 nighttime and daytime. 25 But what we are going to be doing in a 3428 1 24-hour period, all of the water that comes in to 2 Wuskwatim Lake will be going out and we won't be 3 holding it back. So within a 24-hour period, all 4 of the water that comes in will go out, so you 5 wouldn't expect to see significant changes down 6 the road, for example. So, that is just a bit of 7 an explanation about the CRD itself. 8 The other major component that 9 Wuskwatim would have potential to have an impact 10 on in terms of changing the water regime would be 11 Lake Winnipeg Regulation. And the reason Lake 12 Winnipeg Regulation might have some modification 13 in its operation is that when we operate 14 Wuskwatim, there may be certain times when it 15 would be more useful to take the energy that is 16 produced from Wuskwatim and use it at a different 17 time of the year. So what we would do is hold 18 back some of the flows out of Lake Winnipeg 19 Regulation and release it at a later time, when 20 the additional energy would be more valuable. 21 That is why there is some potential for Lake 22 Winnipeg Regulation to be modified slightly with 23 Wuskwatim's addition. 24 We need to understand when talking 25 about Lake Winnipeg Regulation that we have a 3429 1 license to operate the Lake Winnipeg operation 2 facility, the Jenpeg facility, and there is strong 3 rules that we have to follow. The first one is 4 that we are talking here about the levels of Lake 5 Winnipeg. I should explain that we are talking 6 here about 711 feet, 715 feet -- that is above sea 7 level. We are not trying to imply that Lake 8 Winnipeg is 700 feet deep. This is just a 9 reference point above sea level. 10 So under the Lake Winnipeg Regulation 11 license, if we are into a flood situation because 12 there has been lots of precipitation like the 13 flood of the century a few years ago, what we have 14 to do, under the license we are obligated to go to 15 maximum discharge under Jenpeg for a flood control 16 regulation, so we have no flexibility there, the 17 license stipulates what we have to do. Similarly, 18 if we are under extreme drought, that is 711 or 19 below, then we have to do what the Minister of 20 Water Stewardship tells us to do. So, again, we 21 have no flexibility there. 22 The third area of operation is when we 23 are in a drought and we are at the low end of our 24 range, close down towards the 711 area. At that 25 point we would be concerned about having enough 3430 1 water for the next few months or the next year 2 under a drought, and we go into what is called 3 conservation mode, holding water back to protect 4 against the drought. And that we don't have much 5 flexibility on either. 6 The area that we do have some 7 flexibility is what is called here normal 8 conditions. So there is a few feet there that we 9 can regulate for power system economics, to get 10 the most value of the water flow. And that is 11 where we have some potential to modify its 12 operation to get some more benefit on a seasonal 13 basis, summer/winter basis, from Wuskwatim. But 14 with our experience and expertise, we would expect 15 those changes to be very small changes in the Lake 16 Winnipeg operation. 17 So we didn't just use our own 18 experience and expertise on that, we have 19 sophisticated computer models where we did studies 20 on Cross Lake and Jenpeg operations, it would be 21 similar to other stretches on the Upper Nelson as 22 well, and we made runs into the future, what would 23 the operation of the whole system, including Lake 24 Winnipeg Regulation, look like? 25 This is a set of runs, a run I guess, 3431 1 without having Wuskwatim, just as we expect the 2 system to be operating with the existing 3 generation. And what we did was took the year 4 2012 and said, what would the operation look like? 5 We don't know if that year is going to be a 6 drought year, a flood year, or what kind of a 7 year. So what we did is we ran all of the 8 historical flows through our models. We said what 9 if the flows that happened in 1970 happened in 10 that year 2012, what would the system do? We did 11 that for every year from 1970 to 1990. And then 12 we did a plot of what Cross Lake would look like 13 under those flows, and we have got from 676 feet 14 above sea level to 686. 15 And you can see there is a large 16 variation, and it is around 8 feet from the top to 17 the bottom, and that is due to Mother Nature 18 giving us either droughts or floods, depending on 19 the rainfall we get. 20 You can see, for example, around 1974 21 we had a flood condition and lots of water going 22 down the Nelson, of course, Cross Lake levels were 23 high. On the other hand you had drought periods, 24 for example, in the late 1980s there were 25 droughts, we had low levels on the Cross Lake 3432 1 because we got less water. So that is a big 2 determinate here of what is going to happen to the 3 Cross Lake levels is how much water is in the 4 system. 5 So then we did another run and we 6 said, let's put Wuskwatim into our system and what 7 it will look like. And you can see here -- it is 8 hard to see. There is two lines here. The black 9 line is with Wuskwatim, and the red line is the 10 one that I just showed you before, that is without 11 Wuskwatim. And you can see there are very small 12 changes with and without Wuskwatim. And this is 13 what we would expect. It is what our computer 14 models have confirmed. 15 So you have got to compare the 16 changes, the small changes to what might typically 17 happen at Cross Lake. And here is some examples, 18 these are maximum changes that you might see. 19 Water supply -- again, by that we mean floods or 20 drought -- you might see up to 8 feet difference 21 from when you got the worst drought to the worst 22 flood, so you would see up to an 8 feet range at 23 Cross Lake just due to that. Wave set-up, you 24 have got waves from one end of the lake to the 25 other, if you have a sustained wave set-up you 3433 1 could have 4 feet of operation, ice effects at 2 .8 feet -- sorry, the wind set-up is when you have 3 sustained wind and the average level, not the 4 waves themselves, but the average level between 5 the waves, that would be half a foot. Jenpeg, we 6 do have some daily operation at Jenpeg, and that 7 would cause .2 feet. 8 So what does Wuskwatim do? Our best 9 case analysis, what we think will happen with 10 Wuskwatim down the road is we will enter into 11 long-term firm exports sales with it, and we would 12 have a .1 foot drop in summer levels with 13 Wuskwatim compared to without. So that would not 14 be perceptible. 15 Similarly, we did a sensitivity case, 16 we said, well, what if the export market is 17 different than we think it is going to be and we 18 don't enter into a long-term firm sale, and we 19 have a sensitivity and that would be in the 20 opposite direction, and that would be a .4 foot 21 increase in the average summer level at Cross 22 Lake. Again, that probably wouldn't be 23 perceptible either. 24 So our conclusion is, both from our 25 experience and from the studies that we have done, 3434 1 that there would not be a perceptible change in 2 the Cross Lake water levels. 3 So what are our conclusions from 4 looking at the water regime? First of all, I 5 reiterate, there will be no change to the 6 Churchill River Diversion operation in the water 7 regime beyond the local area that Mr. Rempel 8 showed us. There will be no perceptible change in 9 the Lower Nelson House water levels, for instance, 10 around Stephen's Lake or downstream of Stephen's 11 Lake. There will be no perceptible change in the 12 Lake Winnipeg outflows. There will be no 13 perceptible change in the water levels affected by 14 Lake Winnipeg Regulation, including, for example, 15 Cross Lake. 16 These results were then provided to 17 our environmental team who assessed what the 18 potential environmental impacts would be or would 19 not be from that. So that completes the water 20 regime part of the presentation. 21 I would like to move on to the next 22 presentation, which is the need for and 23 alternatives to Wuskwatim part. And what do we 24 mean by that? Well, we really have got two parts 25 to our whole submission to the Clean Environment 3435 1 Commission and to all of the work that we have 2 been doing over the last couple of years. And 3 actually, it is kind of hard to see perhaps, but 4 you can see this whole cart, ten feet, over ten 5 feet of material, and this contains thousands and 6 thousands of pages on what we called need for an 7 alternative, and that is related to what is the 8 justification for Wuskwatim, is it the best 9 alternative? And the rest of it, almost ten feet, 10 is the environmental studies that are going to be 11 presented right away. All of this information, by 12 the way, is available to the public and the public 13 registries. 14 So the need for alternatives, I am 15 going to be talking about the justification for 16 Wuskwatim, what are the alternatives, and just 17 briefly what are the economic and financial 18 conclusions? So, overall, what is the 19 justification for Wuskwatim? We believe it is a 20 very profitable project with benefits for all 21 Manitobans, including those, and especially those 22 in Northern Manitoba. It is a very clean project 23 with much less environmental impacts than the 24 generation that it displaces. In a nutshell, that 25 is why we want to build Wuskwatim. 3436 1 What do we mean by that in a bit more 2 detail? First of all, there would be economic, 3 financial, environmental, and reliability benefits 4 from advancing Wuskwatim and increasing 5 electricity exports. In Manitoba right now we 6 have got amongst the lowest electricity price in 7 the entire developed world of any major utility. 8 One of the reasons for that is the exports. 9 Exports are declining. Wuskwatim would let us 10 export more than we would otherwise. 11 Moving on, clean renewable energy, 12 Wuskwatim would provide very clean and would 13 provide renewable energy. We have got the entire 14 Environmental Impact Statement that helps 15 demonstrate that, we have a presentation on that. 16 Mr. Adams and Chief Primrose spoke on the design 17 of Wuskwatim. We went to low flooding, we had 18 large consultations, we have restricted the 19 operation. There is all kinds of things that we 20 have done to have very low impacts from Wuskwatim. 21 So Wuskwatim is a gem of a product 22 from an environmental point of view. It would be 23 very hard to find another project which would have 24 as low environmental impacts as Wuskwatim does. 25 As a matter of fact, Wuskwatim will have from a 3437 1 global point of view environmental benefits 2 because we are going to reduce greenhouse gases by 3 displacing coal and natural gas generation in the 4 export markets. 5 Whenever you do investments you have 6 to look at risks. We have done extensive studies 7 and confirmed that Wuskwatim will have relatively 8 low risks and any that are there will be very 9 manageable. 10 The last aspect here in terms of the 11 need for Wuskwatim is that -- this is a bit of a 12 byproduct, it is not the reason that we are doing 13 Wuskwatim, but it is a very important byproduct -- 14 and that is that Wuskwatim will provide an 15 economic stimulus in Manitoba with a special 16 emphasis on Aboriginal people in Northern 17 Manitoba. We have pre-project training programs 18 that are already starting up. We are going to 19 have employment preferences. There are going to 20 be business opportunities, and particularly in the 21 local area of Wuskwatim, we have got the business 22 partnership with NCN. 23 The other part that we looked at is 24 the alternatives to Wuskwatim. Manitoba Hydro 25 does not just look at building another new hydro 3438 1 dam, we look at the full range of possible 2 resources and see what is the best mix of 3 resources that we should be pursuing. 4 And we are looking at, as Mr. Adams 5 said, we are looking at expanding our energy 6 conservation program. We are looking at 7 alternative energy, wind generation, we have a 8 commitment to put in 200 megawatts of wind, and 9 potentially even more if that is also economic. 10 We are looking at our existing system and 11 continually upgrading and improving the efficiency 12 in that. 13 We are doing all of those things. We 14 have looked at other options as well, building 15 more coal, building more natural gas, we briefly 16 looked at nuclear but not very significantly. 17 There is a wealth of other resources that we have 18 looked at, but we have determined that those four 19 are the main ones that will give us an 20 environmentally and economically diverse 21 portfolio; more energy conservation, wind 22 generation, increasing the efficiency in our 23 system, and new hydro, particularly Wuskwatim. 24 I would like to move on now to the 25 economic conclusions. And we have had extensive 3439 1 economic studies, but I will just summarize the 2 final conclusion for them, is that Wuskwatim is a 3 very attractive project given the relatively low 4 level of risk. We use something called internal 5 rate of return in our analysis, and I won't go 6 into a long explanation of that right now, but it 7 is a measure of how much profit the project will 8 give, and we found that it will give a very good 9 level of profit, particularly given that it is a 10 low risk project. We have done all of the risk 11 studies or sensitivities to show that Wuskwatim 12 economics are robust. If you have things 13 happening, you never know for sure what export 14 prices are going to be, or the load in the future, 15 or if you have droughts, we have done a full range 16 of studies to show that Wuskwatim will still be 17 economic under all the reasonable possibilities. 18 The last thing here is that we have 19 done studies or sensitivities that suggest that if 20 we have much higher energy conservation, or much 21 more wind generation, the Wuskwatim economics 22 still look very good. 23 24 They were prepared by a team that was 25 selected and reporting to both Manitoba Hydro and 3440 1 NCN, and the documents in the end had to reviewed 2 and approved by both Manitoba Hydro and NCN. 3 Just briefly to start with, 4 Environmental Impact Statements or EIS's were 5 prepared in accordance with the guidelines. These 6 guidelines set out the information requirements 7 that were required by the two Government agencies, 8 the Federal and Provincial Governments. The 9 guidelines stated that the EIS would need to do 10 certain things. The first things that the EIS had 11 to do was describe a description of the project. 12 That description has been refined as we have gone 13 forward and we have done the work required to 14 select routes for the transmission lines, and the 15 access road, and a lot of other refinements. 16 Another thing that the guidelines 17 required us to do is to do an assessment for 18 separate components of the environment. The 19 components of the environment that are listed 20 there and were listed in the guidelines are the 21 physical environment, the water, the land, the 22 air; the aquatic environment, that would be the 23 fish, the fish habitat, and anything else that 24 lives and survives in the water; the terrestrial 25 environment, the habitat, the plants, the animals 3441 1 that are on the lands; the socioeconomic 2 environment, the people and how they are affected 3 by these projects; and finally heritage resources 4 which under the law are the resources, physical 5 resources and sites that have a heritage value. 6 In each case the guidelines required 7 us, and the EIS's in fact to do provide a review 8 of the environments that would exist without these 9 projects being put into development, the baseline. 10 They look at the effects that these projects would 11 have, what change would they make to that 12 baseline? They look at how these changes could be 13 mitigated or made better, and therefore, if they 14 are adverse, how the effects could be reduced, if 15 they are positive, how could the effects be 16 enhanced? They look at cumulative effects, namely 17 the effects that exist in combination with other 18 projects, past, current, and future. They look at 19 residual effects, which means the effects that are 20 left at the end of the exercise after you have 21 considered all mitigation. And they talk about 22 environmental monitoring, the ongoing monitoring 23 of effects, and of each one these environments as 24 required, in order to see whether or not the 25 predictions come to pass, to see whether things 3442 1 that we did not predict come to pass and, in fact, 2 to provide information, when it is appropriate, so 3 people can manage effects better. 4 All of these were done throughout the 5 last several years, in combination with the public 6 involvement and consultation program as required 7 by the guidelines. So they just weren't done by 8 the environmental team, they weren't just done by 9 Manitoba Hydro and NCN by themselves, but they 10 were done in conversation with and consultation 11 with members of the NCN and other people in the 12 affected areas where the transmission lines could 13 be developed, including The Pas, including 14 Cormorant, including Snow Lake, including 15 Thompson, upstream and downstream of the 16 generation station, and the general public of 17 Manitoba and the North. 18 Very briefly, the assessment includes 19 not only scientific knowledge, but also local and 20 traditional knowledge. When we talk about 21 traditional knowledge, the guidelines require us 22 to deal with it, but what does it mean? This 23 Commission, when it held meetings in the north in 24 February of 2002, heard from many First Nations 25 and Aboriginal groups, their views of what 3443 1 constituted traditional knowledge. In this 2 Environmental Impact Statement, NCN puts out very 3 clearly its view of what traditional knowledge 4 consists of. Traditional knowledge is not just 5 facts about where things are, where people find 6 things, where traditional or cultural sites are. 7 It can also be experiences, relationships, 8 collective or personal. It can involve values, as 9 well as spiritual considerations, as well as 10 facts. In the case of NCN's definition, it does 11 not just include things that have happened for a 12 long time period, it also includes modern as well 13 as traditional. 14 The information that we used to 15 develop the EIS's came from NCN. They shared 16 their own traditional knowledge, they did their 17 own studies with their elders and people, they 18 involved their people -- we involved their people 19 in our field programs. Information was also 20 provided by people beyond the NCN community. 21 Ongoing consultation and involvement activities 22 occurred with other First Nations and Aboriginal 23 peoples for both the generation and the 24 transmission projects, with local governments, 25 including The Pas, including Thompson, with 3444 1 potentially affected stakeholders such as trappers 2 and resource harvesters in the areas of the 3 projects, including those from OCN, from 4 Cormorant, from Snow Lake area, and the general 5 public. 6 Public consultation and involvement 7 was an integral part, as I have been saying all 8 the way along, of the assessment process. It is 9 summarized in the documents and we would be happy 10 to answer questions about it. It has been going 11 on with NCN since 1997. It has been going on with 12 other communities beyond NCN since the fall of 13 2001. It has taken place in several stages with 14 other people, or rounds of activity. Extensive 15 opportunities have been made for us to provide 16 information to people about these projects, and 17 about the way we were consulting with them, and 18 for people to provide us with their views, 19 concerns, issues, and thoughts. 20 Various techniques have been used to 21 do this, including website information, open 22 houses, community meetings, and various 23 newsletters at each stage of the exercise. 24 When we go through the full detail of 25 the generation station, which we are now going to 3445 1 focus on, we would talk about the physical 2 environment first and we describe various elements 3 of it. We won't today, because George Rempel has 4 already described the water regime and that is the 5 key of the physical environment, and Ed Wojczynski 6 has already talked about the climate effects that 7 are positive, and that is another key element of 8 the physical environment. Stuart Davies will now 9 review with you briefly the generation portion of 10 the EIS dealing with the aquatic environment and 11 the terrestrial environment. 12 MR. DAVIES: A lot of these 13 slides -- a lot of these slides provide 14 information on the generation components with 15 information on the transmission components coming 16 through the Wuskwatim Power Point presentation. 17 The following slides focus on the 18 generation component, with information on the 19 transmission component coming through the Power 20 Point presentation that is going to follow. As 21 Mr. Wojcznski said, there has been an enormous 22 amount of information that has been collected. A 23 lot of that was collected for the Environmental 24 Impact Statement. 25 One of the ways that the information 3446 1 collected was brought to the community at Nelson 2 House was through the direct participation of a 3 number of NCN members. In the studies themselves, 4 about two-thirds of all of the people that 5 participated in the field work were NCN members. 6 A number of the technical people were actually 7 graduates of the Keewatin Community College in The 8 Pas, and some of them actually had come to the CEC 9 meeting last time. I am not sure if I am looking 10 at the class there -- is it the Keewatin Community 11 College -- good, it was a good way to meet some of 12 the students. 13 The information for the generation 14 component was collected, starting in 1998, with a 15 very detailed joint study program starting in 2000 16 and continuing up to today. There has been a 17 total of five years of water quality information 18 collected to date, with another year being planned 19 for 2004. A very large geographic area has been 20 sampled. Originally, the sampling was being 21 conducted from a point upstream of Early Morning 22 Rapids to a point just upstream of Thompson. 23 Through the public involvement program, concerns 24 were raised by downstream communities, and the 25 program was subsequently expanded to include sites 3447 1 downstream of Thompson. 2 When we met with additional 3 communities, they requested that it be expanded 4 further, and now it extends all of the way to just 5 upstream of Split Lake and it actually meets with 6 another program which extends all the way to the 7 estuary, so it's a very board area that is being 8 sampled. A broad range of parameters are being 9 looked at. The total suspended solids, which are 10 the clays and mud that get into the water during 11 construction are being monitored. All of the 12 nutrients, the things that make the plants and 13 algae in the water grow are being looked at, a 14 full suite of metals are being studied. At 15 specific locations we are also looking at things 16 like bacteria and parasites and oils and grease in 17 the water, so we have a really good idea of what 18 the pre-project conditions are like. 19 During construction we do expect that 20 there will be some short-term water quality 21 changes, particularly during construction 22 activities inside the river itself, things like 23 building the cofferdam, but they will be 24 relatively short term. During operation, we don't 25 expect there will be any measurable changes in the 3448 1 water quality going downstream through the system. 2 There may be some small localized effects right 3 near the shoreline where some of the erosion will 4 be taking place, but overall we don't expect to 5 see any measurable change in downstream areas. 6 Now, in regards to fish populations, 7 we feel that overall, looking at the project study 8 area as a whole, that the effects will be 9 positive. One of the reasons for this is, if we 10 take a look at the area upstream of the generating 11 station, right now the water level fluctuations 12 are about four and a half feet a year. We have 13 the water levels going up and down, which is 14 having a negative effect on all of the bugs and 15 plants that live along the shoreline. Sometimes 16 it is wet, now sometimes it is dry. When the 17 project is in place, the water level effects will 18 be limited to about 5 inches rather than about 4 19 and a half feet, so we expect to see much more 20 production. 21 In the downstream areas we expect to 22 see a negative impact on fish populations, partly 23 because of the increased water level fluctuations 24 that will occur when the water goes through the 25 generating station. The area upstream, though, is 3449 1 about 8 or 9 times bigger than the area 2 downstream, so overall we expect to see a net 3 positive effect on some of the key species like 4 jackfish, pickerel, white fish and tullibee. 5 The Federal Department of Fisheries 6 and Oceans plays a very important role in 7 regulating all of the developments that occur in 8 the water, with specific interest in fish habitat. 9 If there is any fish habitat that is going to be 10 lost or affected, there is a need to replace that. 11 A very detailed draft fish habitat compensation 12 program has been put in place to make sure that 13 any effects in the downstream areas are fully 14 compensated for, any of the effects by actually 15 placing the dam for the generating station are 16 fully compensated for. So we do expect that in 17 addition to the small increase that we expect to 18 see because of the stabilized water levels, it 19 will also have an increase because of the 20 implementation of the fish habitat compensation 21 plan. 22 Now, ultimately, the number of fish 23 that are in the lake, we want to make sure that 24 everyone realizes that really depends on how many 25 fish are taken out. With the increased road 3450 1 access, we do expect that the commercial fishery 2 will expand. Right now it is very expensive to 3 get the fish out, they are flown out. With the 4 road, they will be able to drive them out and we 5 expect to see more fish harvested from the lake, 6 and probably an increase in domestic harvesting 7 also. 8 One of the key issues that was raised 9 by NCN was mercury because of the effects of the 10 Churchill River Diversion. So we made sure that 11 there was a great deal of information collected on 12 it, and we looked at both what we expect would be 13 the likely scenario and also the worst case 14 scenario, and in both cases the increases that are 15 expected probably will not be large enough to be 16 detected over natural variation. When you sample 17 mercury in fish, one year it might be a little 18 higher than the next, one year it might be a 19 little lower, and we expect that the increases 20 will probably fall within that range. Regardless 21 of that, there will be monitoring for mercury 22 throughout the period. 23 If we look at the downstream areas, 24 there are some peat areas in Opegano Lake that may 25 die off, and some of the fish that live directly 3451 1 in the area, like jackfish that don't move very 2 much, some of the individual fish may have some 3 slight increases in mercury levels, but 4 populations as a whole won't be affected. We 5 don't expect to see any change in mercury 6 concentrations in fish downstream of Opegano Lake. 7 The majority of transport of mercury 8 occurs through the biota, which are all of the 9 things that live in the water, so fish are 10 normally the things that would take the mercury 11 downstream. There is very little fish movement 12 because Taskinigup Falls is not -- fish can't swim 13 upstream over Taskinigup Falls, so there is little 14 fish movement between the areas and we don't 15 expect to see any change. Actually, the predicted 16 increases in Wuskwatim Lake would still be smaller 17 than the existing levels in Birchtree and Opegano 18 Lake. 19 I think that is the last slide on 20 this, but the one thing we want to make sure 21 everyone realizes is there will be a very detailed 22 monitoring program. A draft has been developed 23 and provided to the Department of Fisheries and 24 Oceans for their review and consideration. We 25 have said that the information that we collected 3452 1 for the study started 1998. It went full out in 2 2000. The monitoring program would go to around 3 2025. So we are looking at information being 4 collected from 1998 to 2025, which is a very long 5 period of time, which will give us a good 6 understanding I think of everything that would 7 have happened if the project is in fact 8 constructed. Thank you. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: We are making headway. 10 MR. OSLER: I am back to finish this 11 presentation on the generation side looking at the 12 socioeconomic effects, the effects on the people, 13 and as well the resource use. Very quickly, the 14 resource use activity, as Mr. Davies has just 15 described, will be long term and positive to do 16 the generation station due to the improved access 17 to the area. Land and water use will be described 18 in the transmission discussion that is coming up, 19 after the break I expect. The effect on the 20 economy deals with jobs and training and 21 contracting opportunities to do the generation 22 station -- and I will say a few things more in a 23 minute on that -- as well as the ownership 24 opportunity for NCN, which would give this 25 community the opportunity to earn income from the 3453 1 project after it starts operating and into the 2 future as long as the project operates. 3 Under personal family and community 4 life, we are talking about the effects on local 5 transportation, safety, and access, where there 6 are no new incremental issues that arise that are 7 of any significance. We are talking about the 8 esthetics, the loss of the falls, and any other 9 changes to the area that result from these 10 projects. We are talking about community health, 11 which is of great concern to First Nations such as 12 NCN. The overall conclusion in the studies is 13 that the community health will not be adversely 14 affected by the project, and the long-term income 15 from the project may help NCN address their 16 concerns in this area overall. 17 Social well-being of the community and 18 its culture are also addressed under this heading. 19 Again, in dealing with an important cultural site, 20 which Taskinigup is, the approaches that are 21 needed to deal with it with respect and proper 22 ceremonies are noted carefully by NCN in the EIS. 23 But overall, again, the project provides 24 opportunity for the First Nation, improved access 25 for its members to this area, and improved income 3454 1 to protect, sustain, and develop its culture. 2 Community organization and governance 3 and goals and plans of NCN are also addressed in 4 the EIS, and the concordance or ways in which this 5 project helps them in this regard are noted. 6 In terms of heritage resources, the 7 work done in the course of preparing the EIS did 8 not identify any special heritage resources that 9 would be affected that are known by the project. 10 But it also sets out the steps that will be taken 11 in the course of doing the project to make sure 12 that people are on site, that have knowledge, and 13 they can see if anything unforeseen of a heritage 14 nature emerges so it can be protected and dealt 15 with properly according to both the law and 16 respectful approach needed if it is a First Nation 17 heritage resource. 18 The other brief point that I would 19 like to make is just to note the jobs associated 20 with the generation project. This graph shows the 21 peak positions that would be available for working 22 on the construction of the project. It shows six 23 years. It shows how the jobs vary during each 24 year, how they tend to be seasonal, being maximum 25 during the summer and being quite low during the 3455 1 winter. And the final thing -- they also show how 2 they vary greatly between the first two years, 3 when you are developing the access road and the 4 camp, and the last four years when you are 5 physically building the generation station. 6 And the final thing that they show is, 7 in the colour, the differences in skill 8 requirements to work in these jobs. The blue 9 shows what they call non-designated trade 10 requirements. Most of them, 45 percent of them 11 require less than a year's prior experience and 12 training. These are truck drivers, heavy 13 equipment operators, labourers, and other skills 14 of that nature. Some of them require two years of 15 training and prior work experience. In each job 16 category there will be opportunities for about 17 one-fifth of them, 20 percent, to be trainees. 18 The green shows designated trades. People to 19 become fully qualified in these trades usually 20 require at least four years of training and work 21 experience. These are carpenters, electricians, 22 plumbers. There are a lot of them required to 23 build the facility. 24 The training programs that you heard 25 about earlier are helping people train before 3456 1 these projects start construction for these types 2 of jobs. There will be special measures taken to 3 help people who are trainees work on the site and 4 retain these jobs, and about one-fifth again, 5 20 percent of the designated trades, will be 6 available for apprentices. But to even be an 7 apprentice, you would to have at least two years 8 of prior work experience and training. 9 So that is the type of opportunities 10 that are associated with the generation project. 11 The opportunity for northerners who are Aboriginal 12 to get these jobs, we estimate up to 90 percent of 13 the first two years' jobs will probably go, or 14 could go to northern Aboriginal residents. During 15 the generation station construction, the last four 16 years, the numbers are lower, 31 to 42 percent, 17 reflecting the higher skill requirements, more 18 training and experience required to even get 19 qualified to come on the site. 20 It says at the top, peak annual jobs 21 150 to 550, there is a typo, that should read 540. 22 All of these jobs are unionized jobs and there 23 will be a collective agreement that will apply. 24 To summarize the overall EIS results, 25 before we -- we are going to have Elvis at the 3457 1 very end of what I am talking about, I believe, 2 and then we will go to the transmission after the 3 break. I think you will want to have a break 4 before we go to the transmission, so I will 5 conclude and then we will have the break. 6 Very quick summary of all of the 7 effects of both projects; the projects were 8 designed to avoid and minimize adverse effects. 9 You have heard about this in the way in which they 10 had the low head rather than the high head. You 11 heard about it in terms of how we selected routes, 12 how we decided to operate it. The result is that 13 the projects are expected to create no significant 14 adverse effects on the environment or related 15 effects on people. It doesn't mean that there 16 won't be adverse effects. There will be some, but 17 that they will not be -- using the rules that we 18 have to use for environmental assessment -- they 19 will not be significant. 20 Positive biophysical effects are 21 likely to result from displacing global greenhouse 22 gas emissions, as Mr. Wojcznski has described, and 23 from reducing annual fluctuations in levels of 24 Wuskwatim Lake that are caused by the Churchill 25 River Diversion, as George Rempel has described. 3458 1 Positive socioeconomic effects for 2 people are likely to result during the 3 construction and operation. This will happen for 4 people in the local area, NCN members, people in 5 Thompson, probably people in the Burntwood/Nelson 6 House region. There will also be positive 7 socioeconomic and economic benefits, though, for 8 all Manitobans. 9 Mr. Chairman, that concludes our 10 overview. There will be a review of the 11 transmission section in more detail after the 12 break. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Osler. 14 After the break, therefore, there will be the 15 final segment of presentations. This information 16 is provided by the proponents so that you can have 17 a better grasp of what is being proposed in 18 regards to this project, so that you in turn can 19 proceed to ask the questions for the information 20 that -- to clarify, to better understand what is 21 being -- or to express views about what you 22 understood. And the final segment of that will be 23 the transmission lines, and they will present that 24 right after the break. We will now break until 10 25 after 3:00 o'clock. 3459 1 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 2:55 P.M. 2 AND RECONVENED AT 3:10 P.M.) 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: As I indicated before 5 we took the break, there is one more segment of 6 information to present, and then it will be your 7 turn to input into this process. So I pass it on 8 to whoever has that responsibility to present the 9 information. 10 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 11 This presentation is in Cree, this is something 12 that we had done before the Environmental Impact 13 Assessment was put forward. It has been, it took 14 quite a bit of effort to do. We have a number of 15 our own people in the community that provide us 16 with their knowledge of the Cree language and 17 provide translation for all of the difficult 18 concepts that we have to go through as a team. 19 That translation team consists of one 20 of my colleagues, Councillor Darcy Linklater, and 21 we also have his brother, Terry Linklater, whose 22 voice you will hear on the transmission 23 translation. And we have Jimmy D. Spence, one of 24 our other elders, but also one of our employees, 25 who is very knowledgeable in the use of our 3460 1 language as well, currently providing simultaneous 2 translation. And we have Charlie Hart and Henry 3 Wood. These have been the key people when it 4 comes to translating all of the important concepts 5 and documents for us and they have done a very 6 outstanding job. 7 I don't see too many Cree speaking 8 people, so I won't go into the Cree language, but 9 we had an opportunity to do a Cree presentation in 10 Thompson. I have provided a brief synopsis of the 11 whole thing that we had been working on, and we've 12 done the generation station side of the 13 presentation in Cree, provided an overview, and 14 now we are going to provide you with a 15 continuation of that presentation, but this time 16 with a focus on the transmission side of things, 17 and it is all being done in Cree. For those of 18 you that don't speak Cree, there will be written 19 information on the presentation that will allow 20 you to follow along with what is being said. So 21 with that, let's start. 22 23 (PRESENTATION IN CREE) 24 25 MR. THOMAS: That concludes the 3461 1 presentation that we are doing to the public. 2 We've focused on three major areas. First, we 3 described the whole project to everyone, and we've 4 also focused on the need for and alternatives to 5 area; and finally, we have done the Environmental 6 Impact Assessment statement to everyone. 7 Throughout this process we have 8 engaged our 1996 implementation agreement, which 9 contains an article 8 provision that requires 10 Manitoba Hydro to come to our people to consult 11 with us first if there is to be any potential 12 development in our traditional territory. That 13 process has been followed. It requires that our 14 consent be obtained and compensation issues be 15 dealt with prior to the start of construction. 16 And Manitoba Hydro has followed the processes that 17 have been established for that kind of stuff. 18 We have engaged that article to obtain 19 funding from Manitoba Hydro that allows us to 20 engage in a consultation process that is far 21 different than what has been done in the past. 22 Through the provision of funding through the 23 article 8 process, we have been able to hire our 24 own people to be involved in a process that is 25 community driven. We've engaged in many 3462 1 workshops, open houses. We have consulted with 2 our people via newsletters, opinion surveys, 3 various forms of media communication. 4 All of that has resulted in an 5 Agreement in Principle being drafted up and put 6 forward to our people for consideration, and also 7 for ratification through a referendum process. 8 We've also engaged, we've also agreed to engage in 9 another referendum process with respect to the 10 ratification of the final project development 11 agreement. 12 This project development agreement has 13 had a preview of it done in the form of a summary 14 of understanding. That is going to be, the SOU is 15 going to be finalized in the project development 16 agreement, and the people will have an opportunity 17 to vote on it again. So, we will have gone 18 through two referendums by the time we finish with 19 this process. 20 The NCN Chief and Council established 21 a future development portfolio, and we've also 22 established a future development team, which 23 consists of myself as the portfolio councillor, 24 but I have also had many members of Chief and 25 Council be involved in our process as well. 3463 1 Councillor Darcy Linklater has been very heavily 2 involved for quite a long time, working with me 3 and assisting me to try and handle the 4 responsibilities. We have also had Councillor 5 David Spence, Councillor Angus Spence, actually 6 all of my colleagues, the Chief and my other 7 colleagues, Chief Jimmy Hunter Spence and all of 8 those people have been very heavily involved in 9 this process. 10 We have hired two of our own people to 11 be co-managers for assisting us in dealing with 12 the future development issues. Those people are 13 Marcel Moody, he is a former councillor and a 14 former leading negotiator for the Northern Flood 15 Agreement, Implementation Agreement that was 16 ratified in 1996. We also have Norman Linklater 17 who is another co-manager. He is a former Chief, 18 and he was also involved in the consultation 19 process with our people. We have hired our own 20 legal advisors, our own financial advisors, our 21 own engineering advisors. 22 We have changed things around a bit. 23 Previous to us doing the process the way that we 24 are, we used to have a whole bunch of 25 non-aboriginal consultants, legal, financial, 3464 1 engineering and otherwise, be in charge of the 2 show, so to speak. That resulted in a lot of 3 fruitless negotiations that ended up spending an 4 awful lot of money. Many of the benefits went to 5 them as opposed to our people. Our people changed 6 that around so that we didn't have to go through 7 this kind of situation. So, as a community, we've 8 taken charge of our own situation and we direct 9 our advisors this time around. So it is quite 10 different from the way things were done. 11 We've been able to engage in a process 12 that has been very productive. We have provided 13 pre-training opportunities for our people. We've 14 negotiated with the Province to move a project up 15 a number of years in order for us to provide 16 relevant training for the needs of this project. 17 We did a junction road from 391 into the 18 community. We have also got a training centre out 19 of this process. We are building approximately a 20 $7 million training facility in Nisichawayasihk. 21 The place will offer training for the people for 22 the project, but also training that is going to be 23 relevant for the distant future. Also, it is 24 going to have a strong focus on business 25 entrepreneurial type of training. And this 3465 1 facility is accredited so that it will work with 2 the existing facilities in the Province of 3 Manitoba. So it is going to be a very exciting 4 place to learn in. 5 So, we've done quite a bit over this 6 period of time. We've gone through a number of 7 sessions already with the public. We have had 8 some very heavy questions thrown at us from all 9 sides. There is many environmental groups that 10 have interests that they need to put forward, and 11 there is also a number of people that also have 12 different views from the way that we want to do 13 things as a community. That is considered to be 14 all fair, because we live in a democratic society, 15 and whatever you do in life, you are not going to 16 get 100 percent agreement with whatever way you 17 choose to pursue what you think is going to be in 18 the best interests of the community. So we've had 19 quite a number of people come forward. 20 We look at this opportunity as 21 something that is quite unique, and we see it as 22 something that is going to better the future of 23 the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, more particularly 24 for the future generations. 25 We have had our way of life 3466 1 significantly impacted by some people who have 2 their own interests, I guess, with respect to the 3 anti-fur trade lobby. That impacted very 4 significantly on our ability to be able to make a 5 living off the land. Many of us have been pushed 6 by our parents and our elders to go and pursue 7 different ways of living. They've sent us to 8 universities and we have gone through that. I 9 don't think I would be able to survive in the bush 10 all by myself if I were to be sent out there these 11 days. I could certainly give it a good shot, 12 though, I would have to dig way deep in my memory 13 bank to see if I could remember all the skills 14 that I was taught as a young child, but things 15 have changed considerably. 16 As the Chief has pointed out, we have 17 many people that are interested in pursuing new 18 ways of doing things. And this project will allow 19 us to develop the necessary resources for us to be 20 able to capitalize on modern opportunities. 21 We have had some people put themselves 22 forward as experts of our culture, telling us that 23 the best thing for us to do is to remain 24 hunter/fishermen type of people. That is 25 something that we still value as people, but at 3467 1 the same time we, as First Nations people, have 2 every right to explore modern day opportunities in 3 the modern world. So with that, I will hand 4 things over to the Chairman. Thank you. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Councillor 6 Thomas. 7 As indicated, there has been quite a 8 few days of hearing up to now. In fact, with the 9 hearings here in The Pas, if I include tomorrow, 10 that would be 15 days of hearings completed. 11 There are additional days that are already held 12 for future hearings that will take place in 13 Winnipeg in the first week of April and the second 14 week of April, so we are not finished. Some 17 15 groups, most that have received funding to assist 16 in preparation for their input in these hearings, 17 most of them have had an opportunity to make their 18 presentations. Others still have to do that. 19 Besides that, many other individuals or groups 20 have made presentations to this Commission. 21 I will ask the panel of the proponents 22 to make themselves available so that you can now 23 have an opportunity to ask questions of the 24 proponents in regards to any aspect of the 25 proposals. Tonight, we have already some people 3468 1 who have registered to make their own 2 presentation, and we will continue tomorrow with 3 that as well. 4 Mr. Grewar, you are wishing to input? 5 MR. GREWAR: Well, I was just 6 wondering if we might accommodate one person who 7 is anxious to complete a presentation before a 8 long drive this evening, but I don't know if that 9 is going to work at this point now. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: We will also have 11 opportunity, I believe, after this period of 12 questions -- we can interrupt the questioning 13 after a given amount of time, if you wish, and 14 pass on to a presentation. 15 MR. GREWAR: Whatever you like, 16 Mr. Chairman. It is just one gentleman indicated 17 that -- well, because the time being 4:00 o'clock, 18 if we accommodated him now before they set up -- 19 sorry, I tried to catch you but I just was a 20 little slow off the mark. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Then we 22 will have the presentation and to pass on to 23 questions after. 24 MR. GREWAR: Could we bring forward 25 Clarence Easter? Chief Easter has to drive this 3469 1 evening and he was hoping that he could finish 2 before the dinner hour. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, is it Chief 4 Easter? Is that correct, I heard you were going 5 to sing a song while they are getting this ready? 6 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Chief 8 Easter, if you will, Mr. Grewar will swear you in 9 and then we can proceed. 10 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could you state your 11 name for the record? 12 MR. EASTER: Clarence Easter. 13 MR. GREWAR: Chief Easter, are you 14 aware that it is an offence in Manitoba to 15 knowingly mislead this Commission? 16 MR. EASTER: No. 17 MR. GREWAR: Knowing this now, sir, do 18 you promise to tell just the truth in proceedings 19 before this Commission? 20 MR. EASTER: Okay. 21 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 22 23 (CHIEF CLARENCE EASTER: SWORN) 24 25 MR. EASTER: Sorry for the 3470 1 inconvenience, I just wanted to say a few things. 2 I think my presentation is going to be short and 3 to the point. It says, "let us not throw out the 4 baby with the bath water," that is what I call 5 this presentation. 6 Basically, just my background, I have 7 been Chief for the last ten years. I'm from 8 Chemawawin, about two hours from here on Cedar 9 Lake. We have been affected by the Grand Rapids 10 Generating Station over the last 40 years. Where 11 were you guys in 1964? Maybe it would have turned 12 out better -- I would have turned out better. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: You wouldn't have had 14 the Power Point then. 15 MR. EASTER: We never had the 16 opportunity that Nisichawayasihk has right now to 17 partner with, you know, a corporation like 18 Manitoba Hydro. The relationship that has been 19 developed, or that will be developed between 20 Aboriginal communities and corporate Canada, that 21 is, you know, that is a new thing. The foundation 22 has to be strong in order for the community to be 23 vibrant, and you have got to believe in it, you 24 know, to have community economic development, but 25 also on the flip side to that, social development, 3471 1 a proactive effort to take charge, to make a 2 decision, work towards opportunities for the 3 community and its members. I think I truly 4 support that. Like I said, where was all of these 5 things -- there were no hearings happening in 6 1964. In the 1950s, they just said move, we are 7 going to build a dam at Grand Rapids. That is 8 what happened. 9 Tomorrow, after 40 years, we are 10 signing, we are having a signing ceremonies in 11 Chemawawin. We started a new relationship with 12 the Province of Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro. It 13 took 40 years to get there and I'm glad that we 14 have taken the first steps to do that. 15 This partnership, as I see it -- like 16 I don't know too much about it -- but in 17 principle, you know, it would be a model for 18 collaboration. Aboriginal nations have direct, 19 meaningful, and proactive input. I really believe 20 in that. Because you as a community, the 21 Nisichawayasihk, have direct input, you have 22 direct influence. 23 Structure and organized collaboration 24 between NCN and Manitoba Hydro allows for transfer 25 of learning related to the large scale projects. 3472 1 I think you will learn a lot from this project, 2 some of it good, some of it bad. 3 It instills confidence to other 4 businesses to partner with Aboriginal communities. 5 So you will promote other businesses, promote with 6 other Aboriginal communities. 7 Injection of new capital and resources 8 into the community -- well, a lot of other 9 benefits will come with that, some of it good, 10 some of it bad. 11 Promotion of the community and 12 economic development -- community and economic 13 development, but also social, political and 14 cultural aspects of the community will be 15 affected. 16 Future enhanced revenues will help 17 realize these aspects as well, some of it good, 18 some of it bad. 19 Proactive means by which to reduce the 20 dependency on income support and welfare 21 economics -- we can not continue to live just by 22 receiving funding from Federal Government or 23 Provincial Government as grants. We can't live 24 like that. We have to be able to work and make 25 our own living, and this is one of the ways of 3473 1 doing it, partnering with a corporation that has 2 lots of money. 3 Better future employment 4 opportunities, quality of life without having to 5 leave home -- you know, that is a big thing, and 6 everybody can benefit from this. I mean, you 7 know, I come from a community that was -- you guys 8 didn't help us a bit, you guys weren't there for 9 us, you know, the corporation just built a dam. 10 I'm here today to discuss things that 11 are going to have a brighter future for 12 Nisichawayasihk. And they are taking charge, so 13 as I hear from Elvis. You know, NCN/Hydro 14 collaboration partnership has other benefits as 15 well. It is a template for future development, 16 for future partnerships. In addition to 17 confidence for Aboriginal nations, it demonstrates 18 capacity for structured and organized undertaking 19 for completion of a large scale project. 20 Institutional framework requires 21 processes and procedures instill confidence, 22 especially for smaller, medium sized businesses to 23 pursue relationships with Aboriginal communities. 24 All of those things we have to take 25 into account, that there will be benefits and you 3474 1 will have to take charge, and I'm hoping they will 2 do that. 3 Taking charge: Successful partnership 4 between NCN and Hydro will allow meaningful 5 ongoing discussions and checks to deal with issues 6 of mitigation and deals -- mitigation and 7 mitigating the damages as well. Because a lot of 8 stakeholders are here. NCN will be an 9 "influencer" and not just a recipient of change, 10 they will be a major player on both sides of the 11 fence. On one side they are, you know, they are 12 stakeholders that will be impacted. On the other 13 side they are making decisions on how these 14 impacts will happen in the community. Hopefully, 15 they will take into consideration those impacts 16 that it will have on various stakeholders that are 17 out there. Successful outcomes will be the basis 18 for future partnerships and collaborations with 19 external stakeholders. Stakeholders means 20 everybody that will be impacted. Hopefully, you 21 will talk to all of those people so that they will 22 be successful. 23 We all want to be a people and 24 community that is self-reliant, and that is all 25 that anybody wants, to be able to make a living. 3475 1 Responsible for its future -- that is all 2 everybody wants. Strong and vibrant community 3 which offers each of its members better employment 4 opportunities and higher quality of life, and that 5 is all everybody wants. A place where each person 6 will have the opportunity for personal growth, 7 learning, and can contribute in their own way to 8 overall benefit of the community, that is all 9 everybody wants and that is all they need. 10 Community which serves as a role model 11 for other communities, Nisichawayasihk will do 12 that. I hope they will be a good role model. For 13 NCN, the Wuskwatim project and partnership with 14 Hydro provides for one such possible opportunity. 15 In the end, leadership is all about 16 providing vision and direction. However, buy-in 17 from the community, they need to communicate in a 18 meaningful and effective manner. That is easier 19 said than done. We have been through all of those 20 processes in our community as well, even though 21 ours happened 40 years ago and it is still hard to 22 swallow today. 23 Addressing those needs, concerns, help 24 propose and implement managing change, it is all 25 about managing change and how you manage that 3476 1 change in each community, you know, to help things 2 get better. So let us not throw away the baby 3 with the bath water. It may prove costly. 4 That is the end of my presentation. I 5 hope I didn't take too much of your time. Thank 6 you very much. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, 8 Chief Easter. Are you prepared to welcome some 9 questions if there are some? 10 MR. EASTER: Sure. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. 12 Mr. Nepinak, you have a question for Mr. Easter? 13 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 14 Chief Easter, I would be interested in knowing -- 15 you mentioned entering into an agreement with 16 Manitoba Hydro and the Province. Is this to do 17 with the current Hydro, or are you going back to 18 some other arrangement, or into the future? I'm 19 just interested in knowing, you know, your intent, 20 if you don't mind telling the Commission as to 21 your plans? 22 MR. EASTER: Do you want me seated or 23 standing up? 24 THE CHAIRMAN: You can be seated. 25 MR. EASTER: Maybe I will stand up so 3477 1 I can look down on you guys. I feel intimidated, 2 all of you sitting and watching. 3 What it is, Manitoba Hydro built a dam 4 at Grand Rapids, they told us to get lost, they 5 moved us out of -- in the south, what do you call 6 it, the south shore of Cedar Lake. We were 7 relocated back then. I'm not sure the exact 8 events, all I hear is stories, there was a lot of 9 damages that happened, environmental damages I 10 guess over the years. Our people have always said 11 that, you know, there were damages, there were 12 outstanding damages by Manitoba Hydro and the 13 Province of Manitoba, as well as the Federal 14 Government was involved back then. 15 But to date, we settled with Manitoba 16 Hydro, back in 1990, we had a settlement 17 agreement, we settled what they call adverse 18 effects. Since then they have been discussing -- 19 back in the 1992, there was an Agreement in 20 Principle that was being contemplated to be 21 signed, but it never got signed until 1997, I 22 think. We signed an Agreement in Principle to 23 settle all other outstanding issues relating to a 24 letter that somebody wrote in 1962. So there was 25 a letter of intent in 1962 to settle all of those 3478 1 outstanding issues, and tomorrow we are having the 2 signing ceremony in Easterville to sign that 3 agreement with the Province of Manitoba and 4 Manitoba Hydro, settling some land issues. I 5 think, approximately, we are getting about 6 95,000 acres of land, a resource area, and how to 7 manage Cedar Lake on an ongoing basis. 8 So we have developed a relationship 9 with Manitoba Hydro and we are jointly monitoring 10 Cedar Lake and we are jointly managing what 11 happens on Cedar Lake. That's basically what we 12 are signing tomorrow. 13 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you, Chief. One 14 other additional question -- I was there looking 15 for work in '62, what I came across was an Indian 16 agent that helped us get jobs on the dike. Is the 17 department involved today, mainly Indian Affairs, 18 the Federal department, in your current agreements 19 I guess? 20 MR. EASTER: No, actually, the 21 department is not involved in this settlement. 22 Actually, we will be contemplating on going after 23 the Federal Government as well for their 24 involvement in the building of the generating 25 station in 1964. So we still have some 3479 1 outstanding issues with them. 2 MR. MAYER: Hydro has got a few of 3 them too. 4 MR. EASTER: I am certain they do. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Anybody else in the 6 room who wishes to ask questions is welcome as 7 well. So don't be shy, just come forward and ask 8 your questions. 9 Chief Easter, now that you have signed 10 the first agreement with Hydro and you have 11 expectations that maybe you will also get some 12 assistance from the Federal Government, presumably 13 that will entail, or be followed up with 14 consultations with your people to make some plans 15 for the future? 16 MR. EASTER: Yes, definitely. You 17 know, everything that we do, we have to go 18 practically into the homes so that people can 19 understand what exactly it is that we are doing. 20 You see, we had -- before this agreement, we had a 21 referendum back in -- I forget when it was -- May, 22 I think, and it didn't go through. People said, 23 you know, voted no against it. Most people didn't 24 go in to vote. And when people came to us and 25 said that, you know, because it was a no vote 3480 1 everybody got concerned that we weren't going to 2 have a settlement. Then we said everybody voted 3 no. But then they said, well, can we vote again? 4 They didn't understand the first time. Just doing 5 newsletters and saying things on the radio doesn't 6 necessarily mean everybody understands. I think 7 you have to go right into their homes and explain 8 this is what is going on. We literally had to go 9 into the homes and explain what the agreement 10 said. We handed out the agreement and explained 11 to people right in their homes as to what it is 12 that we were signing, or what it is that we were 13 contemplating on signing. So we had a referendum 14 again in August and it passed. The same people 15 still said no, mind you. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: But others came to 17 vote. Thank you, Chief Easter. I see no other 18 questions. We thank you for taking the time and 19 making the effort to make this presentation. 20 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if 21 we might enter the presentation slides. We don't 22 have a copy, we were not able to print them here 23 today, however, Chief Easter has indicated that he 24 would forward them to us, the slide presentation 25 you saw. So perhaps we could assign an exhibit 3481 1 number to that document. It would OTH-1014, 2 presentation slides submitted by Clarence Easter, 3 Chemawawin First Nation. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 5 6 (EXHIBIT OTH-1014: Presentation 7 slides submitted by Clarence Easter, 8 Chemawawin First Nation) 9 10 MR. EASTER: I have a question. At 11 the beginning you said if I broke the law -- did I 12 break the law? 13 THE CHAIRMAN: You didn't break any 14 law. I see no further questions and, therefore, 15 we will let you go. We thank you very much. 16 MR. EASTER: Thank you. 17 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, the choice 18 of course is yours, if you want to proceed to 19 questioning, as would be the norm, however, there 20 was one other gentleman who was hoping to present 21 this afternoon, who is from the Northern 22 Association of Community Councils, Mr. Reg Meade, 23 and he is available if you wanted to proceed with 24 one more presentation and then open with 25 questioning this evening. 3482 1 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. Maybe we 2 will change the process a bit and have that 3 additional variety. 4 Mr. Grewar, would you swear in 5 Mr. Meade? 6 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could you state your 7 name for the record, please? 8 MR. MEADE: Reg Meade. 9 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Meade, are you aware 10 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 11 mislead this Commission? 12 MR. MEADE: Yes. 13 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 14 just the truth in proceedings before this 15 Commission? 16 MR. MEADE: I promise, but the truth 17 to me might not be the truth to others around the 18 table. So don't hold me to it if you think I'm 19 telling half truths. 20 21 (REG MEADE: SWORN) 22 23 THE CHAIRMAN: The world has been 24 existing for a long time, and there has never been 25 a time where everybody shared the same view, so 3483 1 yours is what we are wanting to listen to. 2 MR. MEADE: Thank you. My name is -- 3 first of all, good afternoon Mr. Chairman, 4 Commissioners -- my name is Reg Meade and I am 5 appearing before you today as president of the 6 Northern Association of Community Councils. Like 7 many northerners, I wear a number of hats. I'm 8 also the mayor of the community of Wabowden. I 9 also participate on a number of committees that 10 work to advance social and economic well-being of 11 Northern Manitoba. 12 Before focusing my comments on NACC's 13 views related specifically to Wuskwatim, I believe 14 it would be useful to provide a brief background 15 of our organization, who we represent, and our 16 goals and objectives. 17 NACC is an association that serves the 18 interests of approximately 50 community councils 19 in Northern Manitoba, ranging from Brochet in the 20 far northwest, to Bissett, some in the Interlake 21 and on the west side of the Province. Our 22 communities fall within the jurisdiction of the 23 Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs of 24 the Government of Manitoba. Through the mayors 25 and councillors of our member communities, we 3484 1 represent as many as 30,000 people in the north, 2 the majority of whom are of Aboriginal descent -- 3 and don't believe what I'm saying. 4 I should point out that a number of 5 the community councils that we represent are 6 located in the proximity of the proposed Wuskwatim 7 development. This includes Nelson House, 8 Wabowden, Thicket Portage, Moose Lake, Cormorant, 9 Herb Lake Landing. 10 NACC's goals are to promote and 11 encourage wherever possible the development of 12 local governments, and to assist in the 13 improvement of services, physically, social and 14 economic development of all northern communities. 15 That is why I'm here before you today. 16 There has been an accepted public 17 consultation related to Wuskwatim. Several of our 18 member community councils have participated in 19 these meetings to make known the interests and 20 concerns of these communities. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, can I ask you to 22 go just a little slower so the reporter can take 23 it down? 24 MR. MEADE: While this should be 25 obvious, I would like to emphasize that as the 3485 1 elected local government representatives of these 2 communities, we have a responsibility to speak on 3 behalf of the communities on matters that may 4 affect them or are important to our futures, and 5 we have done so. 6 NACC has held a long-term interest in 7 focusing on local development that will yield 8 favorable and long-term benefits to communities in 9 Northern Manitoba. We believe that Wuskwatim will 10 do this. Wuskwatim will provide training, jobs 11 during construction, the project will result in 12 the expenditure of almost -- I don't know where I 13 got that figure from but it sounds a little high, 14 but $1 billion. I was scared to not tell the 15 truth on that one. And it will create 16 opportunities for northern businesses, generate a 17 cash flow that will find its way into our 18 communities. 19 Once the project has been completed, 20 those who have received training will have 21 upgraded skills that will be used to provide a 22 better life for themselves and their families, and 23 there will be more carpenters, electricians, and 24 other skilled people to help improve the living 25 conditions in northern communities. 3486 1 Looking farther into the future, with 2 these new skills perhaps our young people will not 3 have to leave the north. Perhaps they will be 4 able to work on other hydro projects, or in the 5 mining, forest industry, or maybe just provide 6 local service that we import from other places. 7 This will help sustain the communities 8 economically and enable our local councils to 9 provide better service to our residents. 10 I must point out that historically 11 many major projects in the north did not employ 12 any substantial members of northern residents, 13 particularly those of the Aboriginal descent. 14 That is why NACC believes that it is essential 15 that these people who are impacted by development 16 should benefit, and we look to Wuskwatim to 17 benefit our communities. 18 We who live in the north understand 19 all too well that developments like Wuskwatim can 20 impact the environment. NACC is an umbrella 21 political organization, we are not environmental 22 experts. However, we know that all human 23 activities impact our environment in one way or 24 another. The important point is that these 25 impacts be managed so as not to harm the 3487 1 environment's ability to serve future generations. 2 Many in our communities can remember 3 when fishing and hunting were the economic 4 backbones of our communities. We understand 5 firsthand the concept of sustainable resource use, 6 and we understand there is a need for families to 7 survive today. We look to your recommendations to 8 ensure the impacts of Wuskwatim will be minimized 9 and enable the project to proceed to provide 10 benefits to our communities that I have spoken 11 about earlier. With sound environmental 12 practices, we will be able to have the benefits of 13 Wuskwatim, as well as a continued development of 14 local fishing industries, Aboriginal crafts 15 industry, transportation, commercial construction, 16 tourism, recreational development, and also our 17 key components of our local economies. 18 To conclude, I would like to share a 19 couple of stories about NACC's participation in 20 activities that maybe on the surface seem totally 21 unrelated to the review of Wuskwatim development, 22 but I think after hearing them you will find them 23 very useful in your recommendations to the 24 Minister. 25 As recently as last weekend I was at 3488 1 the climate change conference in Winnipeg with a 2 lot of countries there, people that didn't 3 understand each other's languages, but through 4 technology we were able to get along. It was very 5 interesting to know that hydroelectric power was 6 the top of the list of -- for the less 7 environmental harm on greenhouse emissions 8 compared to the other countries that depend on 9 coal, gas. There was some talk about wind power. 10 I don't know anything about it so I can't comment 11 if it works or it doesn't work. Knowing and being 12 brought up in the north as a commercial fisherman 13 for 40 some years, there are some days or some 14 weeks that there is no wind at all for anything 15 under six feet, or five and a half where I stand, 16 or sitting down four feet. It might be windier up 17 on top. 18 I'm also the president of the Bay Line 19 Round Table. I sent the lady that works for us to 20 Nunavut on a path finding mission for the proposed 21 road freight that goes through Manitoba. The 22 resolutions that came back from the different 23 communities in Nunavut were all, if not -- or the 24 majority of them, if not all, were resolutions to 25 get Manitoba's hydroelectric power to our 3489 1 neighbors in the north. They need it. We can't 2 sit back and weigh the pros and cons of what other 3 people think. We all think differently, and that 4 is what you mentioned earlier, Mr. Chairman. But 5 I'm hoping that in the long run -- I know your 6 task is not easy -- but you will weigh the pros 7 against the cons of what Northern Manitoba, 8 especially the Aboriginal communities in Northern 9 Manitoba can benefit from projects like this. 10 Chief Primrose was instrumental in a 11 northern university concept, which is now becoming 12 a reality, to keep our youth from having to leave 13 Northern Manitoba to get the education that they 14 require, in an Aboriginal setting, in an 15 Aboriginal community, or in the City of Thompson, 16 or wherever it is put up. 17 I guess I could go on and on for the 18 rest of the afternoon with this, but then I will 19 just be taking somebody else's time. 20 In closing, Mr. Chairman, 21 Commissioners, I know it is not going to be an 22 easy task. I know that you are going to take 23 everything into consideration. Chief Easter made 24 a great comment that 40 years ago they were 25 impacted and there was nobody around to study 3490 1 this. It is a great day and it is a proud day for 2 Aboriginal communities, Aboriginal First Nations 3 to get into partnership with Manitoba Hydro or 4 other industrialized people that come there. But 5 if we look back, you as Commissioners, and weigh 6 what happened in the past to stop the future from 7 expanding, then we would be back in the dark ages. 8 We would be back where nothing could move ahead, 9 there would be no industry. 10 I was talking to the mayor of the Town 11 of The Pas. Years ago, I won't give out my age, 12 but there was The Pas lumber company, the Finger 13 Lumber Company that made all kinds of environment 14 impacts on the Saskatchewan River and the area 15 around The Pas. If we had stopped industry then, 16 I don't know what shape the Town of The Pas would 17 be in today without Tolko and the logging 18 industry. 19 So with that, Mr. Chairman, I won't 20 take up any more of your time. I would like to 21 thank you for the opportunity to come out here to 22 make my views, that may be the truth to some of 23 the people, might not be what the majority of them 24 want. Even within the organization that I'm 25 president of -- I think it was 52 communities 3491 1 right now, some have fallen by the wayside because 2 other practices say you can't expand, so they had 3 to move away. But some of the communities don't 4 agree with what the majority want by supporting 5 Wuskwatim. I am mandated to support the majority 6 of the population that says, yes, we have to move 7 that way. And I have to deal with the ones that 8 say no, we shouldn't go that way, or we have to 9 clean up what was done in the past before we can 10 start something new. 11 As Commissioners of the Clean 12 Environment, and yourself as the Chairman, I have 13 great faith that you won't be weighing the pros -- 14 or the cons too heavily against the pros and 15 looking for the future and not the past. Thank 16 you. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Meade. 18 Did you say just a few seconds ago that you had a 19 mandate from your association to speak in regards 20 to this project? 21 MR. MEADE: That's right. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: That is what I thought 23 I heard. 24 MR. MEADE: I have been in local 25 politics for 30 years and with NACC for 15. If I 3492 1 don't go with what their mandate is, I won't be 2 around very long. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: While others may have 4 questions, Mr. Grewar might file this 5 presentation. 6 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 7 We would file the brief submitted by the Northern 8 Association of Community Councils Inc. as 9 OTH-1015. 10 11 (EXHIBIT OTH-1015: Presentation by 12 Mr. Meade for the Northern Association 13 of Community Councils) 14 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Are there questions? 16 Mr. Meade -- he doesn't appear to be a very 17 dangerous guy, so I don't think that you should be 18 afraid. 19 MR. MEADE: If you ask me no questions 20 I can't tell you any lies, then I will be stock 21 free. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Stories are never lies. 23 Hearing or seeing none, we thank you for taking 24 the time to come and make this presentation. 25 MR. MEADE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 3493 1 Commissioners. I don't envy you in your task. 2 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, we have one 3 more request for an accommodation before the end 4 of the afternoon. We have 30 minutes, it is up to 5 you, Mr. Chairman, or if you want to go directly 6 to questions for the panel. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I think we will 8 proceed with one more and then we will get on to 9 the questions this evening. So after this 10 presentation, we will adjourn. 11 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Gary Hopper, from the 12 Town of The Pas. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar. 14 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could you state your 15 name for the record, please? 16 MR. HOPPER: Gary Hopper. 17 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Hopper, are you aware 18 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 19 mislead this Commission? 20 MR. HOPPER: By now I do. 21 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 22 just the truth in proceedings before this 23 Commission? 24 MR. HOPPER: I do. 25 (GARY HOPPER: SWORN) 3494 1 MR. HOPPER: So I get the heat for 2 being the last one up here. I didn't ask. I know 3 I have a long drive, I have to go back to The Pas, 4 but thank you for the opportunity, Mr. Chairman, 5 Commissioners. 6 I don't know if you have been 7 officially welcomed to Opaskwayak Cree Nation. I 8 know Chief Whitehead and myself, we tag team quite 9 a bit, so officially from Chief and Council, we 10 welcome you to the Opaskwayak Cree Nation. We 11 also welcome you to the Town of The Pas. And I 12 know you will enjoy the northern hospitality that 13 we offer and the good fellowship. So we hope you 14 have an enjoyable visit. We do thank you for 15 coming up and hearing our concerns, and wish you a 16 good trip home. Normally, you would be able to 17 watch a Blizzard hockey game, but we won't go into 18 that -- next year. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: All of the ice melted 20 yesterday. 21 MR. HOPPER: We will use that as the 22 reason. Some of us know better. 23 The opening remarks of Chief Primrose, 24 when he spoke of opportunity, I look at the 25 Wuskwatim project as a huge opportunity. When he 3495 1 comes down to OCN and sees the development here 2 and the commerce that is going on, and goes back 3 to other communities where that is not the case as 4 of yet, he has to be envious, and he also has to 5 look ahead, which is what he is doing, looking 6 ahead with vision and saying, we can do that too, 7 how can we do it, what is going to kick start this 8 and move it along? This is that opportunity. 9 I don't know if the Chief is still in 10 the room, but all I can say is -- pass it on to 11 him -- I hope that NCN enjoys the great 12 relationship with Thompson and other communities 13 such as we enjoy with the Opaskwayak Cree Nation. 14 Through partnerships with Aboriginal and First 15 Nations communities, we both win. It is a win-win 16 situation. We have to work together. We all come 17 from different backgrounds, however, we are all 18 Manitobans, and if we don't move ahead together 19 and we leave people behind, we are all going to 20 pay the price. 21 Today I am appearing before you not 22 only as the mayor but also as a long time resident 23 of Northern Manitoba. Although I'm not an 24 environmentalist expert, I do wish to provide you 25 with some comments that may assist you with your 3496 1 deliberations and some comments that I believe are 2 the truth. I notice that -- we should have all 3 politicians take that oath? Does it work in 4 Ottawa too? 5 I have been following the hearings for 6 some time now, and whether you are speaking about 7 traditional hunting grounds, interim operating 8 licenses, future economic performance of our 9 province, augmented water flow programs, climate 10 change, whether electricity is generated by water 11 or fossil fuels, they all seem to be connected in 12 one fashion or another. I listened to fellow 13 Manitobans from Nelson House, Thompson, South 14 Indian Lake, Cross Lake, and Chemawawin speaking 15 of past issues, and quickly realized that you as 16 members of the Commission have a huge task in 17 front of you. I believe that the outcome of the 18 Wuskwatim project must be determined on its own 19 merits. 20 However, I would also ask -- and I 21 know you prefaced this when you started that you 22 can't take recommendations about other things that 23 you hear, but I did pick up that you did say you 24 could make some observations. And I think maybe 25 one of the things that I would encourage you to do 3497 1 is take the observation back to the appropriate 2 Ministers that issues in the past, although they 3 are being worked on through various channels, that 4 there is still further work to do. And for us to 5 move ahead as a Province, these issues have to be 6 put to bed finally, and I think the sooner the 7 better. 8 At the risk of stating the obvious, 9 the economy of Northern Manitoba is based on the 10 region's natural resources. Indeed natural 11 resources served the needs of the area's first 12 residents and ultimately attracted European 13 explorers to this area many years ago with the fur 14 trade, which was an important part of our 15 community's history. Later, commercial fishing 16 and trapping became an important part of the 17 northern economy, followed by other resource 18 developments including the timber harvesting for 19 our saw mills, mining smelting, agriculture and 20 eventually pulp and paper, which Mayor Meade spoke 21 about earlier. 22 These developments provided the 23 foundation for our northern economy and result in 24 investments on infrastructure, roads, schools, 25 hospitals, and tax bases that are essential for 3498 1 the fine quality of life that not all of us enjoy, 2 but certainly a good part of us enjoy in Manitoba 3 right now. 4 To us, resource development is not 5 something abstract. It is not the subject of 6 academic debate or philosophical musings of 7 special interest groups, it is our life and it is 8 our reality. We live it day by day. 9 The Wuskwatim projects that are the 10 focus of your review are the continuation of the 11 development of Northern Manitoba hydroelectric 12 resources, which are a key component to the 13 north's resource based economy, which is 14 sustainable and renewable, not like all resources. 15 Our resource industries need a secure, reliable, 16 economic electricity supply to prosper and compete 17 in world markets. We find, with our local economy 18 here, our council, when we are trying to attract 19 big business, one of the first things they ask 20 about is what is available for power, do you have 21 gas, do you hydroelectricity, what are the rates? 22 And presently we can boast the lowest rates 23 certainly in North America for hydroelectricity. 24 If we didn't have that, we certainly wouldn't have 25 the industry to the scale that we have right now, 3499 1 and we have to expand that. Mining certainly 2 wouldn't be here as well. 3 Normally, as close as Swan River where 4 gas lines are available, if we had the gas up a 5 here a few years ago, we probably would have had 6 LP locating in the area as well. Gas, if you are 7 in Stonewall, you might not think that is a good 8 thing right now. 9 Our residents are heavily dependent on 10 electricity to meet their domestic needs. Unlike 11 the south, we do not have the option of natural 12 gas, which we spoke of. We only need to look at 13 last year's blackouts in central Canada and the 14 United States, and the energy supply situation in 15 Ontario, to emphasize the need to invest in energy 16 transmission lines and reliable new energy 17 supplies. 18 From this perspective, I understand 19 the Wuskwatim transmission component will serve to 20 increase the reliability to our community. So an 21 obvious message that I would present to you today, 22 that all projects like Wuskwatim that add to our 23 economic and reliable energy supply are essential 24 and important to the residents and businesses of 25 Central and Northern Manitoba especially. 3500 1 Development of Hydro resources will 2 provide major economic stimulus to the north. 3 Large capital construction projects provide 4 opportunity for training, skill development, 5 employment, and business opportunities. I 6 understand that these construction projects have a 7 limited time span, but they will play a critical 8 role in increasing opportunity for northerners to 9 improve their skills and employability in the 10 north. 11 Upon completion of the construction 12 phase, the legacy is a broadly-based upgrading of 13 the human resource base and business capability in 14 our region. Large northern capital projects also 15 offer widespread benefits throughout the region. 16 Let me speak to a couple of ways that 17 our community will benefit from Wuskwatim. I 18 won't be as loud and mad as my colleague, Mayor 19 Comaskey. But there are definite benefits that 20 our community will have, and not at the expense of 21 other communities. The first is Keewatin 22 Community College which is well positioned to meet 23 community based and skill specific training needs 24 arising from Wuskwatim projects. This will not 25 only provide business activity for the college, 3501 1 that will in some part generate benefits to our 2 community, but will also add to the college's 3 fundamental capacity to provide training for 4 future projects, which in turn generate even more 5 benefits for our communities in the north. 6 Another way our community will benefit 7 is through increased rail traffic. All rail 8 traffic bound for northern hydroelectric projects 9 pass through The Pas, leading to increased 10 economic activity in our community and enhancing 11 the future of the Bay line, which is a vital link 12 to many of the northern communities, if it is not 13 for winter roads, they need the rail line. We 14 have seen in the past diminished use of the Port 15 of Churchill, something again which we are always 16 lobbying for, and this project we feel will 17 enhance opportunities along the Bay line. 18 While I have emphasized why Hydro 19 projects in general, and Wuskwatim in particular, 20 are important in the north, I wish to equally be 21 clear that developments undertaken today must be 22 pursued in a way that respects the environment for 23 the future. I agree with Chief Easter, if this 24 had happened, this type of an exercise that we are 25 witnessing in Manitoba had occurred some 40 years 3502 1 ago, we wouldn't see the negative impacts of 2 developments along our river systems. I 3 understand that Chief Easter has left as well, but 4 he was probably just a baby when this was going 5 on, maybe one or two years old, but he is not here 6 so I can't give him that compliment -- oh, he is. 7 I was right about the age, Chief, about 2 -- just 8 little, okay. 9 Manitobans have learned many lessons 10 from past hydroelectric developments over the past 11 30 or 40 years. One of the challenges I believe 12 your panel will face is to understand the past and 13 its relevance to this project. It has been spoken 14 at probably at every hearing. At the same time, 15 you must recognize the need to move forward in a 16 positive way to ensure the development that is 17 realistic and a proven route to meeting the 18 essential needs of our communities, citizens, 19 industry, and that is key to the Province's 20 economic future, and the benefits of local people. 21 This project has to be determined on 22 its own merits, on the impact that it is going to 23 have on the environment and the people in Central 24 and Northern Manitoba, more particularly around 25 the area of NCN and downstream. 3503 1 Northern Manitoba is not only rich in 2 natural environment portrayed on tourism posters, 3 it is also our home where we work, live, and play. 4 That is why we northerners look to your panel to 5 listen carefully to the presentations you hear in 6 the north and carefully examine the detailed 7 environmental studies and reports on the need for 8 and alternatives to the proposed Wuskwatim 9 project. We look to your recommendations and your 10 wisdom to ensure that, as development proceeds, 11 impacts to the environment are minimized, northern 12 communities benefit economically and socially, and 13 energy supply reliability and costs are enhanced 14 for all Manitobans. 15 As was mentioned by previous speakers, 16 you have a huge task ahead of you. I think that, 17 from what I have seen and read, that there won't 18 be too many rocks unturned to see what lies there. 19 And I think all interested parties are doing a 20 good job in their investigations and their 21 reporting, so you will have all of the facts, I 22 believe, past, current and future, to help you 23 with your deliberations. And I wish you luck and 24 wisdom in that. Thank you very much. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mayor 3504 1 Hopper. Mr. Grewar. 2 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 3 enter the Mayor's presentation to the Clean 4 Environment Commission on the public hearings on 5 the Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project 6 as OTH-1016. 7 8 (EXHIBIT OTH-1016: Presentation to 9 the Clean Environment Commission on 10 the Public Hearings on the Wuskwatim 11 Generation and Transmission Project by 12 Mayor Gary Hopper) 13 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Grewar. 15 Questions? It must have been very clear. 16 MR. HOPPER: Easy crowd. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much 18 again. 19 MR. HOPPER: Thank you very much. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you for welcoming 21 us as you have to your town. 22 At this time we will adjourn for 23 dinner and reconvene at 7:00 o'clock. 24 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 4:45 P.M. 25 AND RECONVENED AT 7:00 P.M.) 3505 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Good evening ladies and 2 gentlemen. A lot of our colleagues seem to have 3 fallen by the table -- If it had been last night, 4 it would have been too wet for them to get here, 5 but I guess tonight it is just too slippery. I 6 will get the ball rolling here. We have a whole 7 panel burning for us to ask some questions. I 8 have been asked in Winnipeg, in Thompson, and 9 again today, why do you call this displaced fossil 10 fuels, a system that is going to displace fossil 11 fuel? I would have thought you would have called 12 it maybe it is going to replace the loss of fossil 13 fuels, but anyway, the word has been puzzling a 14 lot of people, and I just ask on their behalf. I 15 know what it means, but I am asking for you -- 16 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: The question, as I 17 understand it, is why in our presentation, when we 18 are explaining why Wuskwatim reduced greenhouse 19 gases, why do we say that Wuskwatim will displace 20 fossil fuels? And what I meant by that was that 21 clearly what we are going to be doing with 22 Wuskwatim is exporting Wuskwatim, certainly in its 23 first ten years, but later on as well. And when 24 we export, and it is going to be mainly into the 25 United States, we know that there is going to be a 3506 1 huge amount of coal generation and gas generation 2 being added, and also existing generation being 3 used in the next 10, 20 years. And the market 4 price for electricity is set by the alternatives 5 that are there, and those are coal and gas, there 6 are other things that are going to be added as 7 well. There is going to be wind and other 8 sources, but it is coal and gas who are on the 9 margin, who set the market price. We expect what 10 is going to happen when we export power from 11 Wuskwatim, that one, that if we enter long-term 12 firm contracts ahead of time, someone will not 13 build a new coal plant or a new gas plant. And 14 then for the amount of Wuskwatim that we sell in 15 the short-term market, on the opportunity market 16 if we have lots of water that year, then what that 17 will do is, there are units, gas units or coal 18 units that will be operating because we have extra 19 energy available that year, in that month or that 20 week, those units won't operate as much. 21 So in either case there will be less 22 coal or less natural gas burned, and so we 23 displace that, and that is what we mean, we 24 displace that coal or that natural gas, and 25 consequently we produce less emissions, or they 3507 1 produce less emissions. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Mayer. 3 MR. MAYER: I have two questions, but 4 one of them is for Councillor Thomas and I don't 5 see him here, so I will start with the other one. 6 I want to get back to my helicopters and your 7 transmission line. And we have been fussing about 8 that for a little bit. And I thought it was my 9 imagination after you mentioned to me that we 10 won't be using helicopters in the construction, we 11 will use them only in the maintenance and 12 surveillance. So I went back to the volume 1, 13 Wuskwatim Transmission Project, chapter 3, page 14 22. 15 "Structures will generally be 16 assembled on site and erected by 17 crane. Severe terrain conditions may 18 dictate assembly at a marshalling yard 19 and the use of helicopters for 20 erecting the structures." 21 My question is, on your preferred 22 transmission route, have you found any such 23 terrain conditions? 24 MS. HICKS: Actually, I don't believe 25 so at this particular point in time. We are doing 3508 1 a detailed design, Manitoba Hydro is doing a 2 detailed design right now. But generally what was 3 said was actually correct, was that generally 4 helicopters are used for the maintenance and 5 operations, and we are not anticipating that they 6 are going to be used for the construction of this 7 project. 8 MR. MAYER: I am glad as well, I did 9 read it in the presentation. 10 Councillor Thomas, sir, we had this 11 discussion about the transmission line going to 12 significant distances across the Nelson House 13 resource management area, and I am still on the 14 Wuskwatim Transmission Project, volume 1, I am on 15 chapter 6, reading from page 6-8. 16 "The selection of alternative routes 17 in these segments reflected a desire 18 by NCN members to keep the 19 transmission line within their RMA 20 boundary as much as possible." 21 My question, Councillor Thomas, is why 22 is it that NCN members want the transmission line 23 within their RMA boundaries? 24 MR. THOMAS: There is a number of 25 reasons, one being that if we locate the 3509 1 transmission routes within our traditional 2 territory, that we would have a better handle, or 3 a better control in terms of access to our 4 traditional territory. 5 In addition, I believe that we 6 indicated, and I believe that you may have read, 7 if I remember correctly, the document that 8 indicates that it will be a bit more costly to 9 pursue the alternative that you were suggesting 10 with respect to the following of the existing 11 transmission line along the highway. And that 12 would have added more cost to the project overall, 13 and that would impact upon us, as co-proponents, 14 and we felt that the other option was better, 15 primarily for access control. 16 MR. MAYER: Councillor Thomas, that is 17 a little disingenuous. Firstly, you are not 18 partners in the transmission project, so the cost 19 I am assuming should not significantly impact NCN. 20 And I have already heard the argument about the 21 costs, and I understand the extra costs that are 22 involved. And I suppose the decision that the 23 Commission has to make is how much cost would we 24 be prepared to recommend Hydro bear in order to 25 not run through the middle of a boreal forest. 3510 1 But when you suggest that you would have more -- 2 firstly, I talked about the resource management 3 area, you used the term "traditional territory." 4 You pointed out to me very clearly the other day, 5 that the LGD of Mystery Lake is in your 6 traditional territory, and we were going to 7 discuss that later, if I recall correctly. 8 MR. THOMAS: Sure, I will buy you a 9 draft at some point in time and we can discuss it. 10 MR. MAYER: The suggestion that you 11 would have more control over where it went, what 12 do you mean by more control? Do you mean the 13 exact route? Because, clearly, it is not going to 14 mean more access to -- if you put the line 15 virtually running the whole east/west length of 16 your resource management area, that is certainly 17 clearly more possibility for unauthorized access 18 than if it went elsewhere. So what do you mean by 19 the community thought that you would have more 20 control if it stayed in your resource management 21 area? 22 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: If I could make a 23 comment from the beginning of your statement, 24 Mr. Mayer, before we forget it and on to your 25 question. You are making the comment that because 3511 1 NCN wasn't going to be a partner in the 2 transmission that this wouldn't really impinge on 3 them as a cost. Actually, it does, because the 4 partnership has to, in effect, pay the 5 transmission costs through a fee structure. And 6 so, in effect, NCN through the partnership will be 7 paying one-third of the incremental transmission 8 costs. And so if you have a more expensive 9 transmission scheme that you have to put into 10 Wuskwatim, the partnership makes less money, and 11 NCN has less net income. They don't have to pay 12 for it is a capital fee, but the partnership pays 13 for it as an ongoing basis as a fee to the 14 partnership. 15 MR. MAYER: Is that this transmission 16 tariff that we don't get to see? 17 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: There isn't a tariff 18 per se for Wuskwatim and it is not part of the 19 tariff, the Manitoba Hydro standard transmission 20 tariff. There is a specific arrangement in the 21 partnership that is described in the SOU whereby 22 the incremental transmission costs are paid for by 23 the partnership. 24 MR. MAYER: What does incremental 25 mean? 3512 1 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: The additional 2 transmission that has to be put in place for 3 Wuskwatim. 4 MR. MAYER: So no matter which way it 5 goes, they pay a third of it? 6 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: In effect, on an 7 ongoing basis, so if the cost of the additional 8 transmission is higher, then NCN, in effect, has 9 to pay a higher cost. 10 MR. MAYER: I thank you for that 11 clarification, but I am still not letting 12 Councillor Thomas off the hook yet. 13 MR. THOMAS: And your question was 14 again, please? 15 MR. MAYER: The question, when I cut 16 aside all of the introductory remarks, is what 17 kind of control were you talking about when you 18 said you thought you had more control if you 19 stayed in your RMA? 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Before you answer, 21 Councillor Thomas, Ms. Wray wants to interject. 22 MS. WRAY: I just wanted to give the 23 amount of the transmission charge, because it was 24 disclosed in the interrogatories, and it works out 25 to be in the order of $11.7 million for most of 3513 1 the years. It is a bit higher than that in the 2 first two years. So it is actually the single 3 biggest expense that is charged to the 4 partnership. 5 MR. MAYER: Is it charged on the basis 6 of kilowatt hours, or kilowatts transmitted, or is 7 it just charged on a flat rate? 8 MS. WRAY: It is charged on the basis 9 of a third of depreciation, interest, and 10 operating. 11 MR. MAYER: So it is not the actual 12 cost of -- you are not billing them for 13 transmitting the power, you are billing them for a 14 piece of the capital costs, interest, and 15 depreciation? 16 MS. WRAY: That's correct. 17 MR. MAYER: Thank you. 18 MR. THOMAS: In terms of the question, 19 we feel, as NCN members and leaders of our 20 community, that we will have better control over 21 access into our traditional territory, as I 22 referred to it as, with signage and whatever else 23 is required to ensure that there is limited 24 encroachment on our ability to be able to make use 25 of our land and resources, as afforded to us under 3514 1 the Constitution. 2 MR. MAYER: I won't push it. Thank 3 you very much. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Questions? I have some 5 more. 6 MR. MILLER: I have a question for the 7 panel for my own clarification. I understand that 8 Hydro needs two licenses to operate the LWCNR 9 project, the Lake Winnipeg, Churchill/Nelson River 10 project, one coming from the Hydro Power Act, and 11 the other one an environmental license. The 12 question is, from the period 1958 to 1960, during 13 the time that Kelsey was being built and 14 completed, to 2003 perhaps, have you had both 15 licenses? 16 MR. ADAMS: Can I make sure that I 17 understand the question? The question is for Lake 18 Winnipeg Regulation and Churchill River Diversion, 19 we need an Environment Act license and a Water 20 Power Act license? And then you referred to 21 Kelsey. I don't quite understand the 22 relationship? 23 MR. MILLER: I am leading up to that. 24 MR. ADAMS: What is the question? 25 MR. MILLER: From the period 1958, or 3515 1 during the time that Kelsey dam was being built in 2 our traditional territory, from that time until 3 2003, have you had the two licenses, one from the 4 Water Power Act and the other one from the 5 Environment Act? 6 MR. ADAMS: The Environment Act didn't 7 come into force until I think 1988 or thereabouts, 8 so clearly Kelsey was not licensed under the 9 Environment Act. It was licensed under the Water 10 Power Act and still is. 11 MR. MILLER: Does it now have both 12 licences since 1987? 13 MR. ADAMS: Anything that was existing 14 prior to 1987 didn't need to get a license under 15 the Environment Act. 16 MR. MILLER: So it doesn't have both 17 right now? 18 MR. ADAMS: No, it has all of the 19 licenses that it needs. 20 MR. MILLER: Also, I see that in the 21 presentations that you referred to this proposal 22 of the dam and the transmission line as the 23 Churchill River Diversion. Would you need two 24 sets of licenses, one for Lake Winnipeg, Nelson 25 River, and another set for the Churchill River 3516 1 Diversion? It seems to have been split in half? 2 MR. ADAMS: We have a Water Power Act 3 license for the Churchill River Diversion. We 4 have an annual modification to that license on the 5 augmented flow program, and we have a Water Power 6 Act license for the Lake Winnipeg Regulation. We 7 also have licenses for all of those projects under 8 the Navigable Waters Protection Act. 9 MR. MILLER: In the Northern Flood 10 Agreement -- probably you are familiar with the 11 Northern Flood Agreement, at the back there -- 12 they have a schedule A, and it shows the project, 13 the northern development project, and this is to 14 our understanding the LWCNR, the Lake Winnipeg, 15 Churchill/Nelson River Diversion project, the 16 whole thing. Does that mean that you are only 17 going to have one set of license? 18 MR. ADAMS: You will have to show me 19 the appropriate clause in the Northern Flood 20 Agreement. 21 MR. MILLER: It is not a clause, it is 22 a picture, it is a schematic. 23 MR. ADAMS: Show me the relevant 24 material from the Northern Flood Agreement and we 25 will respond to the question. 3517 1 MR. MILLER: Maybe the Commissioners 2 have that information anyway in their stack. 3 Thank you very much. 4 MR. MAYER: Arising out of that, and I 5 guess I can't ask the question, or a question, but 6 I think I can ask Councillor Thomas a question. 7 If I recall correctly -- I know exactly where 8 Kelsey goes, it falls right into Split Lake. I 9 would have thought that would have been York 10 Factory First Nations or Tataskweyak's traditional 11 territory. Am I wrong? 12 MR. THOMAS: No. 13 MR. MAYER: Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Questions? 15 MR. DESJARLAIS: Good evening 16 Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. I am from 17 Grand Rapids, and we are still having a problem 18 with Hydro. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Your name, sir. 20 MR. DESJARLAIS: Norval Desjarlais -- 21 I would like to ask Councillor Thomas and maybe 22 some of the members of the CEC, if they have gone 23 not only looking at the ramifications of the 24 construction prior to the dam actually running, 25 but the after effects that it will create? I 3518 1 know, I have gone through this report, but reports 2 are only words, impacts show you most of what 3 happens after a dam is built. In Grand Rapids, 4 after 40 years, you know, we have to go out 5 60 miles to do our fishing, and we used to fish 6 right on the river. We had plenty of fishing 7 there. Trapping -- trapping is just about 8 non-existent now in Grand Rapids. We have not 9 negotiated a financial settlement for compensation 10 with Manitoba Hydro yet, and I don't know why they 11 are not coming forward or trying to make an 12 attempt to do that in compensation. But I do 13 know, and I would like to present this to maybe 14 Councillor Thomas from Nelson House, have you 15 looked at the Metis and the other non-status 16 people who are going to be affected and who may be 17 seeking compensation in relation to the impact 18 that this dam will have on maybe their hunting and 19 fishing and trapping rights? 20 MR. THOMAS: Our consultation process 21 has been quite broad, and during our public 22 involvement plan for consultation we have reached 23 out to many different groups in the North, and 24 even elsewhere, I believe. We have spoken to the, 25 or extended invitations to the Northern Affairs 3519 1 communities, the Mayor and Councils in those 2 particular areas. We also have had occasion to 3 meet with various people who represent the 4 Manitoba Metis Federation. So, we have discussed 5 the Wuskwatim project with them per se. 6 MR. DESJARLAIS: Thank you. 7 MR. ADAMS: Mr. Chairman, I would like 8 to respond to the business, the issue of Grand 9 Rapids. We have held extensive negotiations, 10 discussions with the Town of Grand Rapids. We 11 actually had an agreement laid out and ready for 12 approval -- I am going a bit by memory here, but I 13 think it was three years ago -- and to date it is 14 the Town Council in Grand Rapids that has not 15 ratified it. It is not a case of Manitoba Hydro 16 not coming to the table to discuss compensation. 17 We have, and we are ready and willing to any day, 18 but we are waiting for feedback from the 19 community. 20 MR. DESJARLAIS: If I may respond to 21 that, Mr. Adams. If I remember correctly, 22 Manitoba Hydro has never asked for any 23 consultation meetings with the community. You 24 have gone to the Mayor and Council, yes. But the 25 Mayor and Council does not represent all of the 3520 1 Metis or all of the First Nations people in the 2 Grand Rapids area, you must remember that. 3 Secondly, the Mayor and Council only 4 are elected to look after roads, water, sewer. 5 The general impacts that that brought these 6 effects to the Metis people, the First Nations 7 people over 40 years ago and destroyed a lot of 8 the livelihood that we had will never be brought 9 back. So I think -- I don't know what Hydro is 10 doing in terms of their negotiators with their 11 lawyers, but I do know one thing, you haven't come 12 to us and had a community meeting and said, look, 13 we would like to settle this issue for now so 14 everything will be clear and everything will be 15 over. Nothing has -- that attempt hasn't been 16 made on behalf of Mr. Brennan or his 17 representatives. Thank you. 18 MR. ADAMS: I appreciate your 19 perspective, but it is simply not true. 20 MR. ADKINS: Mr. Chairman, on a point 21 of order, when there are questions that are being 22 asked -- 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adkins. 24 MR. ADKINS: I apologize -- Bob 25 Adkins -- when there are questions being asked 3521 1 that are clearly misleading, is it appropriate for 2 counsel to indicate that that is not a correct 3 statement, that the question is misleading, and 4 point out in fact where it is misleading? Because 5 there are -- there is an existing agreement with 6 the Grand Rapids First Nation. There is an 7 existing agreement with the Grand Rapids 8 fishermen's association. There is an agreement 9 which was accepted in principle by the Town of 10 Grand Rapids, which is still awaiting final 11 approvals. There is a further agreement relating 12 to infrastructure with the Town of Grand Rapids. 13 There is an offer that has been on the table, and 14 in fact negotiated several times with the Grand 15 Rapids community association in which the local 16 Metis organization is involved. And they have 17 also had the Metis organization, MMF provincially, 18 that have been prepared to come to the table and 19 they have been invited to the table if they wish 20 to attend. And there has further been a 21 displaced -- or residents who are no longer 22 involved in Grand Rapids who have come forward. 23 Those associations have all been funded by 24 Manitoba Hydro to have legal counsel, to be 25 involved in the negotiations. So the statements 3522 1 being made there are absolutely misleading, and it 2 is misleading to these witnesses that are here. 3 MR. DESJARLAIS: Mr. Chairman, if I 4 may respond to that please? 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a second. 6 Mr. Adkins, the panel and I, as the Chairman of 7 the panel, don't always know whether the 8 statements are true or not, and we cannot 9 intervene in that process. Any member of the 10 panel can answer these questions. And, of course, 11 you as counsel have the opportunity to also 12 address the MMF when they make their presentation. 13 But that being the case, you did put those 14 comments on the record, and Mr. Desjarlais can 15 then proceed. 16 MR. DESJARLAIS: Thank you. I guess 17 my concern here, Mr. Chairman, is the impact that 18 has been left as a result of the dam being built 19 at the Grand Rapids Generating Station. We are 20 still having bad years of harvesting for fishing. 21 A lot of our fish come up -- they come up rotten. 22 They are not what we call good salable fish. We 23 don't know if it is the feed that they are feeding 24 on or what it is, or if it is the water that is 25 running through the lake. And we haven't been 3523 1 informed by anyone as to why this is being 2 created. 3 Getting back to this gentleman's 4 question here, if I may have the opportunity to 5 answer. I am not here to deliberate an argument. 6 I am here trying to state facts. And I do know 7 one thing about Grand Rapids, I live in Grand 8 Rapids, I am the magistrate there, I am also 9 Metis. But Manitoba Hydro has never come forth 10 and sat down with the Metis people of Grand 11 Rapids. Yes, they have sat down with the town 12 people. They haven't negotiated anything with the 13 trappers or the fishermen. If they are talking 14 about the fishermen, then they are talking about 15 the fishermen from Grand Rapids First Nations, not 16 from the community. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, 18 Mr. Desjarlais. I think the point Mr. Adkins is 19 making is a response -- it is not a question 20 really that you are asking. And if you do have a 21 case to be made, you can make it as part of a 22 presentation, at which time then you can also get 23 the questions from the counsel for the proponents, 24 and then get an opportunity also to supply your 25 responses, and relate this as to how it relates to 3524 1 the proposals that are on the table. So beyond 2 that, I will not go any further. You made your 3 point. 4 MR. OSBORNE: Good evening 5 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, panel, good evening 6 everybody else. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Your name, sir? 8 MR. OSBORNE: William Osborne from 9 Pimicikamak. Before I ask one or two questions, 10 for the Commissioners to understand this better, 11 we don't normally ask a question directly as you 12 would like us to do, as a people. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, in that regard, we 14 have generally allowed a lot of latitude for 15 people who put a preamble to their question, but 16 on the other hand, you are not making a 17 presentation at this point. Thank you. 18 MR. OSBORNE: I understand, sir. 19 There are a lot of uncertainties raised. Two 20 young people reminded us in Thompson to seriously 21 think about what is going to happen 50 years from 22 now. They stated so. In theory, what if CEC 23 recommends to the Minister to approve the 24 negotiated and proposed project, the project is 25 completed by '20 something, and eventually the 3525 1 process has a final product. What if 10 to 50 2 years from now, this product cannot be exported 3 due to questions raised today and the years to 4 come in regards to the sustainable and 5 environmental friendly label that it has on today. 6 What is going to happen to all of the partnership 7 deals that we have witnessed and heard today? 8 Thank you. 9 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: If I understand the 10 question, it was, what if in 10 or 50 years the 11 project -- or we cannot export because of various 12 possibilities, and I think one of the 13 possibilities given was that hydro will no longer 14 be called renewable electricity. I believe that 15 was your question. First of all, we have no 16 reason to believe that hydro electricity will not 17 be called renewable electricity. We had evidence 18 recently in Winnipeg that the legislation in 19 Minneapolis -- or pardon me, in Minnesota still 20 defines hydro as renewable. The legislation does 21 provide a subsidy to certain technologies that 22 need a subsidy, be it economic, but the 23 legislation does not change the definition of 24 renewability that includes hydro. And you also 25 have a World Bank for instance, and the World 3526 1 Commission of Dams, and the Canadian Government 2 and the United States Government all defined hydro 3 as renewable. The various efforts involved with 4 climate change all define hydro as renewable and 5 recognize the contribution it can make. 6 The other point that I would make is 7 that we have actually, as stated earlier, we do 8 not -- our forecast for the electricity export 9 price that we are going to get doesn't assume that 10 we are going to get a premium in the export market 11 because of any special consideration for hydro 12 power. So the forecasts assume that we displace 13 the generation that is going to be built there and 14 displace the cost of that, but it doesn't 15 necessarily mean that we get any premium for being 16 called renewable. 17 And the last comment I would make is 18 that your question went out to 50 years. We are 19 basing our plans on the fact that around 2020 new 20 power will be required to supply load in Manitoba. 21 So starting around there, a portion of Wuskwatim 22 power on the average will get used in Manitoba, 23 and over time presumably more and more of that. 24 So out 50 years, we are not assuming that we will 25 be exporting large portions of Wuskwatim power in 3527 1 50 years. But fundamentally the short answer 2 coming back is that we have no reason to believe 3 we are not going to be able to export, and 4 continue exporting. Thank you. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, 6 Mr. Wojcznski. Other questions? 7 MR. YETMAN: Good evening, my name is 8 Bill Yetman, I am from NCN. I am the resource 9 management coordinator through article 6. I think 10 Mr. Mayer has been robbed of his answer and I 11 would like to clarify. On the control issue that 12 you raised, it isn't so much control that we were 13 after, it was more access for our trappers through 14 I think, I believe there was eight or nine 15 traplines that are down below in the south end of 16 our resource management area. We pushed Hydro to, 17 you know, they wanted to go right along the 18 highway, and we were looking for access for our 19 members to get down into the southern portion of 20 our resource management area. The productions on 21 those traplines is proving pretty much 22 non-existent, and we saw an opportunity if we 23 rerouted the transmission lines that those 24 traplines could be accessed. So I just wanted 25 to -- I am sitting here. 3528 1 MR. MAYER: That makes a lot more 2 sense to me. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: I think, sir, you 4 wanted to raise a point so that Mr. Thomas would 5 provide the answer that you were just giving. 6 MR. THOMAS: As part of my statement 7 that we wanted to protect the recognized and 8 affirmed Treaty and Aboriginal right that are 9 protected under the Constitution, those are, as 10 Bill has identified, some of the issues that we 11 have considered. I should have clarified that a 12 little further. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Thomas. 14 Questions? I am going to take this opportunity 15 to -- sorry, Ms. Avery Kinew? 16 MS. AVERY KINEW: I don't know exactly 17 how to word this, but I find it really difficult. 18 Chief Primrose in his opening remarks talked about 19 the pent up hurt, anger, and mistrust of 20 particularly Hydro because of the CRD that we 21 have heard about particularly in the north, but 22 also in the south. And you can feel the 23 collective grief from what happened 30 or 40 years 24 ago, and it was brought up again tonight. I find 25 it difficult that the only way that Hydro has 3529 1 found to address what they have done in the past 2 years, to address this is by adversarial 3 questioning by lawyers. It doesn't help the 4 people who are hurt, angry, and mistrustful to 5 have questions brought out that way in 6 cross-examination. So, I would like an 7 undertaking by Hydro to tell Manitobans what have 8 you done to address the healing of the people, 9 lands, and water for South Indian Lake, Cross 10 Lake, Grand Rapids? You obviously have it all 11 down. The lawyers are ready to cross-examine 12 people. Why not take it as an undertaking and 13 table it, instead of making it very difficult for 14 people? Why not tell the story, put it as an 15 undertaking, put it out there to the public? 16 MR. BEDFORD: We can do that. 17 MS. AVERY KINEW: I am not just 18 talking about money, I am talking about what you 19 have done, because I think you have done some 20 things. 21 MR. BEDFORD: Comprehensive, yes, I 22 think we can do that. 23 (UNDERTAKING # MH-55: Advise what has been done 24 to address healing of people, lands, and water for 25 South Indian Lake, Cross Lake, Grand Rapids) 3530 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Bedford. 2 Other questions? 3 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Osborne. 5 MR. OSBORNE: Because you asked a very 6 important question, I would like to add a question 7 in regards to these settlement agreements, because 8 numerous times I have heard Treaty, protecting 9 Treaty and Aboriginal rights. In these settlement 10 agreements it is stated "forever release, 11 surrender, indemnify" and something else. What 12 are those releases, indemnifications, and 13 surrenders in those settlement agreements? 14 MR. ADAMS: I don't think -- we are 15 not in a position to answer that. Each settlement 16 agreement is different. Typically, they are that 17 thick. I would need legal counsel to explain it 18 to me, let alone turn around and explain it to 19 you, sir. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: I have heard your 21 answer. I am not sure that it satisfies 22 Mr. Osborne, but the question -- you have answered 23 the question, and Mr. Bedford has made a 24 commitment to provide some information, but what 25 you are asking goes beyond that. From what I hear 3531 1 it involves many agreements, which are all 2 different, which have all kinds of legal 3 implications tied to them. But I will let 4 Mr. Bedford supply additional comments here, if he 5 so wishes. 6 MR. BEDFORD: Mr. Chairman, perhaps 7 the practical thing to do is, we will provide the 8 answer to the undertaking that I made on behalf of 9 Manitoba Hydro, and once Mr. Osborne has a look at 10 that, he may be satisfied that that in fact is the 11 kind of information that he was seeking. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 13 MR. MOORE: Good evening, Commissioner 14 and panel, CEC. My name is Conrad Moore and I am 15 a community consultant for NCN. And I would just 16 like to address something to you relating to the 17 trapping and fishing industry. Like back home, 18 yes, we suffered quite a bit relating to the CRD, 19 and we have grown accustomed and adapted to 20 everything relating to CRD. I was a trapper, I 21 was a hunter, and now that is taken away slowly, 22 as the Government introduces new legislations. 23 For instance, the gun bylaw, a lot of Aboriginal 24 people have criminal records, they can't obtain a 25 license for a firearm. And the steady decline of 3532 1 the trapping industry, relating to the fur 2 markets, they are not there anymore. They exist, 3 but the prices are kind of out -- because the fact 4 is that European markets are well overstocked 5 relating to the trapping industry. That is why I 6 don't trap anymore, because of that factor, you 7 can't make a living out of it anymore. And with 8 part of utilizing our resource area, we can not 9 utilize our resource areas because of all of these 10 new legislations. That is all I have to say. 11 Thank you. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir. There 13 was not really a question in there, but maybe -- 14 you provide some of the information that some of 15 the panel members have provided already. I don't 16 know if anybody wants to comment on the comments 17 that you have made, or add comments to the 18 comments that you made, or did you wish to add a 19 question to that? 20 MR. MOORE: Another thing too, we have 21 programs in the community to more or less help our 22 community members who still utilize our resource 23 area, they provide them with some subsidy, extra 24 money for whatever, fishing, trapping, or hunting. 25 We have programs in place in the community 3533 1 relating to people that utilize again our resource 2 area to more or less teach our young people the 3 ropes of the traditional way of life. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 5 MR. MAYER: Mr. Thomas made that very 6 clear in Winnipeg. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, he did. 8 MR. GARRICK: Mervin Garrick from 9 Pimicikamak. I have a question that has been 10 bothering me all day and all last week. What is 11 the low head talk about at Wuskwatim? 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Rempel? 13 MR. REMPEL: I tried to explain that 14 in my presentation, and perhaps if you look behind 15 you on that picture on the wall, when we refer to 16 a low head, we really mean the height of the dam 17 is quite low and it backs up a modest amount of 18 water. In this particular case, the water that is 19 backed up by that relatively low head or low 20 height of dam is essentially in that area between 21 Taskinigup Falls and Wuskwatim Falls, which is 22 about one and a half kilometres in length, and the 23 area that will be flooded by this height of dam 24 will increase the depth of water in that area that 25 Mr. Cook is pointing out, what we call the 3534 1 immediate forebay. The area, the body of water 2 between Wuskwatim Falls and Taskinigup Falls, it 3 will go up by about 7 metres, it will cause about 4 half a square kilometre of flooding in that area 5 that he is talking about, in a band that is maybe 6 25 to 300 metres wide on the edge of that body of 7 water. So, low head is really a low height of 8 dam. 9 If we had built, or if Hydro and NCN 10 had suggested or proposed a high head, there would 11 be a much higher height of dam, much more flooding 12 in the area of the immediate forebay, much more 13 flooding in Wuskwatim Lake itself, I believe about 14 140 square kilometres. So low head essentially 15 means low height of dam, there is less fall of 16 water captured, less energy, but a lot less 17 flooding. Does that explain it to you? 18 MR. GARRICK: Thank you. And what is 19 Jenpeg, what kind of head? 20 MR. REMPEL: It would be a relatively 21 low head also, but there is a huge difference in 22 this and Jenpeg. The body of water that is backed 23 up behind this particular low head dam will be 24 kept very stable. It will be, most of the time, 25 within five inches of a stable water level. In 3535 1 the case of Jenpeg, it is a different operation 2 entirely. That is drawn down quite frequently to 3 allow more flow coming out of Lake Winnipeg. So, 4 as you know, that water level varies quite a lot. 5 This water level here in that forebay will not 6 vary. 7 MR. GARRICK: The reason I ask that 8 question is, if Jenpeg is a low head, it has done 9 a lot of destruction, a lot of flooding of lands, 10 destroyed the fish and practically everything 11 else, the lives of people. I wonder what will 12 happen if the Conawapa project goes ahead and the 13 Gull Rapids, and the Gull project, will the water 14 flows be affected at Wuskwatim and Cross Lake, 15 because dams have a domino effect? 16 MR. REMPEL: Before I answer that 17 question, I will just say one other thing. When 18 we talked about our project description, we 19 indicated that Manitoba Hydro and NCN have agreed 20 to limit the fluctuation in the water levels above 21 the dam, and also even as far as Birchtree Lake. 22 So there are controls, if you like, limits in 23 terms of how much the forebay can vary. So that 24 is another -- it is not just a low head that means 25 that there is low environmental damage, it is also 3536 1 the manner in which this station will be operated, 2 it will not fluctuate like Jenpeg. So that is an 3 added comment on your first question. 4 With respect to the addition of 5 Conawapa and Gull, I believe Mr. Wojcznski 6 presented some information here in summary form 7 today. There was a much more extensive 8 explanation given in Thompson that, firstly, 9 Wuskwatim will not affect the water levels in Lake 10 Winnipeg very much at all. It is imperceptible. 11 And it is also a case where Cross Lake levels will 12 not be affected to a detectible level by 13 Wuskwatim. 14 Manitoba Hydro has looked at Conawapa 15 and Gull potential effects, and have indicated 16 that more work will be done in the future to 17 determine, when they have a better idea of what 18 the scenarios are in terms of how those plants 19 would be operated, what the transmission lines 20 would be. At that point they will be able to 21 determine the extent to which there will be any 22 effects on the rest of the system. 23 Mr. Wojcznski, did you wish to add to 24 that? 25 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: That is fine. 3537 1 MR. GARRICK: It bothers me because I 2 live on very high ground, and when I walk out to 3 my front yard, I see a benchmark right in front of 4 my steps, and apparently that is the water 5 easement, or apparently when it floods that is how 6 high it is going to get. And some of our people 7 are not allowed to build below those severance 8 lines which are on very high grounds. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adams. 10 MR. ADAMS: There is a huge difference 11 between a severance line and a water level. And I 12 don't plan to try and get into explaining it right 13 now, but certainly, if that bothers you, then talk 14 to -- or I can arrange to have one of our people 15 in Thompson talk to you and explain the 16 difference. 17 MR. GARRICK: We tried that and they 18 said call Winnipeg. 19 MR. ADAMS: I will get somebody to 20 come and talk to you and explain it. 21 MR. MAYER: Some of us in Thompson 22 would like to know the difference between the 23 water level and the severance line. It is really 24 high up. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sargeant. 3538 1 MR. SARGEANT: Mr. Rempel, I don't 2 think that I have heard, what would be the 3 difference in height of the dam and of the water 4 between the high head and the low head? 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. MacInnes. 6 MR. MACINNES: I believe the high head 7 project had a Wuskwatim Lake elevation of near 8 243. 9 MR. SARGEANT: As opposed to 234, is 10 it? So another 9 feet of water? 11 MR. MACINNES: 9 metres. 12 MR. SARGEANT: And the dam would have 13 been a similar amount higher? 14 MR. MACINNES: Yes, of course. 15 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Questions? If there is 17 no further questions, I will discharge the panel 18 and we will go to the presentations. Seeing no 19 further questions, we have a presentation. 20 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, we would 21 call on Norval Desjarlais to come forward on 22 behalf of the Manitoba Metis Federation. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar. 24 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could I ask you to 25 state your name for the record? Could you state 3539 1 your name, sir? 2 MR. DESJARLAIS: Norval Desjarlais. 3 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Desjarlais, are you 4 aware that in Manitoba that it is an offence to 5 knowingly mislead this Commission? 6 MR. DESJARLAIS: Yes. 7 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 8 just the truth in proceedings before this 9 Commission? 10 MR. DESJARLAIS: I do. 11 12 (NORVAL DESJARLAIS: SWORN) 13 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Proceed, 15 Mr. Desjarlais. 16 MR. DESJARLAIS: Thank you, 17 Mr. Chairman. Before I give my presentation, I 18 would just like to remind the panel that when I 19 was up here speaking earlier, I was speaking as a 20 member, a community member of Grand Rapids. That 21 does not reflect on what I am going to be saying 22 in my written presentation. 23 Good evening members of the Clean 24 Environment Commission, elders, and all in 25 attendance today. My name is Norval Desjarlais, 3540 1 and I am here on behalf of the vice-president Judy 2 Mayer, Manitoba Metis Federation, MMF, for The Pas 3 region. 4 The MMF is a self-government 5 representative of the Metis Nation within 6 Manitoba. My submission here today will be very 7 brief, as our main submission by the MMF is still 8 to be brought to the CEC in a few weeks time in 9 Winnipeg. I, however, want to make some brief 10 comments on Manitoba Hydro development and its 11 effects on the Metis people. I also want to talk 12 about Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba's continued 13 refusal to deal with the MMF. 14 MMF, The Pas region, along with Darryl 15 Montgomery, vice-president of the Thompson region, 16 accompanied our technical people in conducting our 17 own internal consultations with our people. There 18 were 10 Wuskwatim workshops across Northern 19 Manitoba and one in Winnipeg, with almost 300 20 Metis representing 35 locals and completing 173 21 questionaries in attendance. Over and over again, 22 we heard three themes emerging from our people. 23 1. That the Metis Nation within Manitoba lands 24 and resources have been and continue to be 25 affected by Manitoba Hydro projects. 3541 1 2. That the Metis Nation within Manitoba and our 2 Government, by the MMF have totally ignored and 3 not engaged in any consultation process. 4 3. The Wuskwatim Generating Station and 5 Transmission Line Projects will infringe upon and 6 interfere with our Metis title, rights and 7 interests. 8 That the Metis Nation within Manitoba 9 believes that the projects will lead to a further 10 erosion of our culture because of its potential 11 impacts on our lands, waters and resources. 12 We believe that the co-proponents, NCN 13 and Hydro, Manitoba, and Canada, all have 14 obligations to meaningfully consult with and 15 accommodate the Metis, as we are a distinct 16 Aboriginal people with collective rights. 17 The MMF represents the Metis people. 18 Mayor and Councils, community associations, 19 individuals, or other groups do not have the 20 jurisdiction to speak on our behalf regarding our 21 Metis collective rights. 22 Invitations to open houses for the 23 purpose of distributing information which is 24 attended by all citizens is not an invitation to 25 proper and meaningful consultation required to be 3542 1 undertaken with Aboriginal peoples. A Metis 2 specific consultation plan needs to be jointly 3 designed by the MMF, Hydro, and Manitoba, and 4 implemented subsequent to a negotiated agreement 5 as to enable full and effective participation of 6 the Metis Nation. Not consulting and 7 accommodating the Metis Nation is contrary to 8 section 35 of the Canadian Constitution. It is 9 also contrary to the Aboriginal Justice 10 Implementation Commission's recommendations and 11 Manitoba's pledge to implement those 12 recommendations. Recommendation number 4.1 13 states, 14 "Any future, major, natural resources 15 developments not proceeded, unless and 16 until agreements or treaties are 17 reached with the Aboriginal people and 18 communities in the region, including 19 the Manitoba Metis Federation and its 20 locals and regions, who might be 21 negatively affected by such projects, 22 in order to respect their Aboriginal, 23 Treaty and other rights in their 24 territory of concern." 25 We believe the meaning of this recommendation is 3543 1 that Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro must consult with 2 and accommodate the Metis Nation through the MMF 3 as representatives of the Metis Nation. 4 This recommendation does not mean that 5 Manitoba or Hydro simply offers a take it or leave 6 it arrangement in the pre-project training 7 initiative. We were left out and were not spoken 8 to until the last minute after Canada insisted 9 that we become involved. 10 So, in summary, please listen to the 11 MMF's main presentation in the coming weeks and 12 the points I have raised today will be elaborated 13 upon. I am sure all of your questions will be 14 answered at that time. Thank you, ladies and 15 gentlemen. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any 17 questions? Yes, sir. 18 MR. DESJARLAIS: I just stated that 19 all questions will be answered at a later date. I 20 am not here to answer any questions this evening. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: So what you are saying 22 is that you are putting on the record that another 23 presentation will be made at which time questions 24 will be answered? 25 MR. DESJARLAIS: That's correct, sir. 3544 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 2 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, might we 3 enter this presentation then as OTH-1017. 4 5 (EXHIBIT OTH-1017: Presentation by 6 Mr. Desjarlais on behalf of MMF) 7 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you want to raise 9 questions, sir, or make a presentation? 10 MR. MOOSE: No, definitely not. My 11 name is Joe Moose. As you might have heard me say 12 in Thompson, my relatives have been around for 13 over 15,000 years. And as I look at the map on 14 the wall there, I acknowledge Lower Fort Garry is 15 about 400 kilometres south of Wuskwatim. So as a 16 Treaty and Aboriginal person, I fail to understand 17 when the Metis Nation says they have title to that 18 land, when the first European probably ventured in 19 our area only 150 years ago, if that even, 20 conducting business fur trading. So even though 21 the gentleman that just made a presentation 22 doesn't wish to entertain questions, my question 23 is, as a Treaty and Aboriginal person who has 24 definitely lost a lot of things in life in terms 25 of the resources that we have had to surrender, 3545 1 when I hear a gentleman come by and make a claim 2 to land to title -- 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Just a second, sir. 4 Would you come and sit at that table here, sir? 5 Introduce yourself? 6 MR. MOOSE: Joe Moose. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar, would you 8 swear Mr. Moose? 9 MR. GREWAR: You were not sworn 10 before, I don't believe? 11 MR. MOOSE: I was in Thompson. 12 MR. GREWAR: Then that is fine, 13 Mr. Chairman. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Make your presentation. 15 MR. MOOSE: Yes, I find it a little 16 upsetting when I hear Metis presentations saying 17 that they have title to the land that has been, 18 how would you say, seceded through generations and 19 through hereditary birth upon my people a little 20 disturbing, given the fact when I gave that 21 analogy that Metis people never resided in our 22 region 150 years ago. 23 According to our history books, Louis 24 Riel fled to Saskatchewan later. Under the United 25 Nations Charter of Act, when you are a conquered 3546 1 people throughout the act of war, which Riel 2 surrendered, he was a conquered nation. So how do 3 you say -- I fail to understand where the Metis, 4 where the Metis perspective is coming from. And 5 you can take this back to your colleagues. 6 The other thing is, the message that 7 Metis presenters are making, who are they speaking 8 on behalf? Are they speaking of the Thompson 9 Metis when they make presentations up in Thompson 10 and then we hear from a presenter here pertaining 11 to the Metis here? And what are we going to hear 12 in Winnipeg? Is this an amalgamated collective 13 statement that will be endorsed by all Metis that 14 the president is going to give up in Winnipeg? 15 Canada has always negotiated on a nation to nation 16 basis, where we as Aboriginal people have nation 17 status. I am not clear under the Constitution if 18 the Metis people were also given nationhood status 19 under section 35. That is something I would like 20 clarified in Winnipeg, if you are going to be 21 there my friend, thank you. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: You realize, Mr. Moose, 23 that you are opening yourself up to questions. 24 MR. MOOSE: No problem. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: I was going to ask you 3547 1 a few questions, but I will keep them. I am sure 2 I will get an opportunity. 3 Any more questions -- or presenters 4 please? And for those who don't know, the floor 5 is open for anyone who wishes to make 6 presentations on this issue. They don't have to 7 be lengthy or written presentations, so you have 8 that opportunity. It is seldom that you will get 9 it. We have one. Mr. Spence, would you come and 10 sit at the table there where you get prominent 11 status. 12 Were you sworn in already, sir? 13 MR. SPENCE: I don't think so. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you make a 15 presentation before? 16 MR. SPENCE: Did I have to be sworn in 17 to interpret translate or -- 18 THE CHAIRMAN: No, that is why you 19 weren't sworn in. 20 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could you state your 21 name for the record? 22 MR. SPENCE: My name is Jimmy D. 23 Spence, community consultant, NCN. 24 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Spence, are you aware 25 that it is an offence to knowingly mislead this 3548 1 Commission? 2 MR. SPENCE: Yes. 3 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 4 just the truth in proceedings before this 5 Commission? 6 MR. SPENCE: Yes. 7 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 8 9 (JIMMY D. SPENCE: SWORN) 10 11 MR. SPENCE: The first thing I want to 12 say is, let everybody know in this room that I was 13 born and raised in Wuskwatim, and I carry a birth 14 certificate that verifies that. I have heard a 15 lot being said about Wuskwatim within the last 16 three weeks, a lot of questions asked about the 17 project. As an individual I got nothing against 18 the economic development or any kind of 19 development anywhere, but it sort of makes me 20 wonder sometimes how far anybody can go with 21 respect to any kind of development. You know, how 22 far are they willing to go before they realize the 23 damage that they do to the environment, and 24 especially damage to the people who live in that 25 area? 3549 1 Like, as an individual growing up in 2 Wuskwatim, that is in 1940 to '50, to the early 3 '60s, I have lived there. I saw the beauty of 4 Wuskwatim, how beautiful it was before it was 5 flooded, how plentiful the wildlife, everything 6 was there in Wuskwatim. And not only myself and 7 my family, but there was about 60 other families 8 that lived and raised their children there in 9 Wuskwatim. In fact, Wuskwatim was one of the 10 areas that I think Councillor Darcy Linklater 11 mentioned about our grandfather Pierre Moose, when 12 he was the leader of the people then, way back 13 when, that was one of the areas that he had 14 selected to be recognized as reserve land. And he 15 had two other areas that he looked at, that was 16 Nelson House and South Indian. There was three 17 parcels of land that he was looking at to be 18 recognized as reserve land, but be all under the 19 one name of NCN. That never happened. And that 20 is why we -- a lot of people moved away from 21 Wuskwatim to where Nelson House is today. 22 And you know, my brother, my brothers 23 and I all grew up in Wuskwatim, through the hard 24 work of my father and my mother to bring us up 25 under very hard conditions. Because back in those 3550 1 days, that is all we had was trapping and fishing. 2 You know, I will say one thing, they 3 made a dam good living out of it too. And I can 4 say that for the whole area of the CRD, the 5 Wuskwatim area, especially along the Rat River 6 where the Churchill River was diverted through. 7 The Rat River used to be one of the best areas for 8 muskrats anywhere, and they were the best quality 9 of muskrat fur that you could get anywhere. I can 10 remember any given season, all of the trappers 11 that used to trap in that area used to come home 12 with no less than 1,000, 1,500, 2,000 or 3,000 13 muskrat pelts. That is one trapper I am talking 14 about. Since the flood, the muskrat trapping in 15 there, I might as well say is non-existent. Same 16 with the commercial fishery, it is pretty well 17 non-existent except to the east side of the CRD 18 floodway, I guess I will call it. The Manarski 19 area, that is the only place there is good fishing 20 nowadays for the commercial fishing. Five of our 21 lakes that were commercial fished through the 22 years were all flooded out, including Wuskwatim. 23 You know, I think that through the 24 years that I can remember that the fishermen have 25 always gone back to those lakes to try and fish 3551 1 those lakes, and try to catch what they used to 2 catch, and it has never been the same. They 3 pretty well -- they have not given up, but they 4 still try to make the best of what they can. 5 As for Wuskwatim, I don't think that 6 they fished Wuskwatim in the last two years. It 7 may be with respect to the mercury content of the 8 fish, I don't know. But in talking to some of the 9 fishermen, they tell me that some areas of 10 Wuskwatim are getting shallower every year, 11 shallower because of the amount of sediment that 12 flows into Wuskwatim. Where it comes from -- it 13 comes all the way from, you know, all of the 14 sediment that flows through the Rat, through the 15 Burntwood, and down into Wuskwatim. Like the 16 Burntwood River itself from Threepoint Lake to 17 Wuskwatim used to be maybe 200, 300 feet wide. 18 You travel now through there and it is really 19 about at least another 100 feet wider than it used 20 to be and a lot more treacherous. We have lost 21 lives in that area of young people, young men who 22 were traveling through there to go to Wuskwatim to 23 try and make a living through commercial fishing. 24 You know, I tried to realize the first 25 time that they told me that Wuskwatim Lake was 3552 1 getting shallower, it used to be a shallow lake, 2 but with the CRD flooding, the water did go up, 3 maybe 10, 15 feet. But for it to get shallower, 4 it is hard to believe, but, you know, just 5 visualize through the 30 years of existence of the 6 CRD how much sediment can flow into Wuskwatim, you 7 know, through the river channel and whatever. And 8 if it is getting shallower, I tend to believe the 9 fishermen, because I know for a fact that the 10 fishing is not the same as it used to be in 11 Wuskwatim, be it for white fish, pickerel, it is 12 not the same. The pickerel are still there, but 13 not as abundant as they used to be. There is 14 white fish there, not as abundant, but not as 15 good. As far as domestic harvesting, it is 16 non-existent in Wuskwatim. 17 Also another -- you know, there has 18 been a real drastic change in the Wuskwatim area. 19 Like, for instance, you hear people talk about 20 Cranberry lake, there never used to be a Cranberry 21 Lake. It was part of the river system. The name 22 Cranberry came from the abundance of cranberries 23 along that river before the flood, that is where 24 the name Cranberry -- it was a point, it was 25 Cranberry Point that they called it, not Cranberry 3553 1 Lake. But same with the other lakes, Sesep Lake, 2 there was no such name as Sesep Lake in the 3 Wuskwatim area. That only came about because 4 there is a lake there now and they just gave it a 5 name. But that pretty well just sort of -- I just 6 wanted to talk to you about Wuskwatim, the way I 7 saw it, the way I knew it, and the way it is now. 8 Like I said at the beginning, I got 9 nothing against development. But, you know, to 10 look at it on the other side, we can see what it 11 can do if it is not carefully looked at, carefully 12 studied to see what kind of damages can be done. 13 We talk about Wuskwatim being a low head, only a 14 few, maybe half a square kilometre of land is 15 going to be flooded. How do we know that? The 16 engineers say that is what it is going to be, but 17 when you talk to the elders, they have a different 18 view of it. Because they say that water, you 19 can't hold water in, you know, the way you hold it 20 in the glass to drink like that, you can't hold it 21 in its natural place, because water can move, it 22 can move for miles. 23 An example of that is when we were 24 interviewing the elders, he stated at one time 25 that he came upon a family of beavers that were 3554 1 just starting to build a dam to hold the water 2 back so that they can build a house there. And he 3 told us that he went back maybe about 10, 30 feet 4 away from the area they were building the dam. He 5 used it as an indicator, as a marker to see -- I 6 guess he was just testing to see if the water can 7 come that far with just the beavers building their 8 dam. He said he went back there a few weeks, few 9 months maybe, he went back there. He went looking 10 for that stick that he had stuck in the ground to 11 use as a marker. He couldn't find it because it 12 was under water. So, you know, actually, what he 13 was trying to tell us is that even a small amount 14 of water that the beaver needs to build his home 15 and be comfortable, he has to back up a lot of 16 water to do that. But imagine, you know, building 17 a dam on one of the main river systems up in 18 Northern Manitoba, what it can do, be it low head, 19 high head, whatever, there is always the effects. 20 I think that, you know, as a 21 consultant and I work with the elders, I translate 22 for them, I translate for everybody in the working 23 group. I sometimes, you know, feel for these 24 elders that I interpret for, because they see 25 things a lot differently than we do. They have 3555 1 been around for a long time, they have seen what 2 happens on the land, what happens in the water. 3 You know, and a lot of times they say, you know, 4 that when you are trying to change how the river 5 flows, or trying to change the shape of the 6 landscape in the area where you want to develop 7 something, they always use the Creator, they say 8 God the Creator made the world as it is, the 9 rivers, the lakes, the plants, and us. The land, 10 we have to adapt to, to survive, and we did. And 11 he said that they often say too that there is 12 nobody else on this earth that can change anything 13 within our environment without causing damage, not 14 only to the earth, but to us as human beings. You 15 know, when you hear that coming from an elder, you 16 know, you start to realize that it is true in one 17 way or another. 18 It just takes me back a bit to the 19 years when we were talking about, or trying to 20 negotiate the Northern Flood Agreement. Even 21 before that when they were talking about building 22 the CRD -- and I heard this comment, and I don't 23 know if anybody else in this room heard it, but 24 this was quite a few years ago. There was a 25 meeting in Winnipeg in a church on River Avenue, 3556 1 and the Minister of Resources, I think it was 2 Sydney Green, they were talking about, you know, 3 going ahead and building this CRD. Can we do it? 4 Can it be done? Little did we know that they 5 already had the plans of how they were going to do 6 it, but it was just the way of letting us know 7 that nothing was going to happen. And he said at 8 that time, he said, well, let's go ahead and build 9 it, nobody lives there anyway, nobody lives in 10 that area. Yes, nobody lives in that area, but 11 look at all of the trappers, the fishermen, and 12 the people themselves that go there to get food, 13 to make the money to bring their families up. 14 You know, that is where the CRD went 15 ahead and was built. You know, there was so much 16 that we never knew of what was going to happen, 17 they just went ahead and built it. Sure, we had 18 jobs doing shoreline clearing and all of that, but 19 they didn't even give us a chance to finish it. I 20 remember I was supervising the men who did the 21 clearing in Nelson House at that time, before we 22 knew it, some of them were up to their knees in 23 water trying to finish the contracts that they 24 had, and we never did finish all of the clearing 25 that we wanted to do. 3557 1 So, you know, I believe that some of 2 the people saying that, you know, nothing was told 3 to them with respect to what was happening with 4 the CRD. And I think that is where you get a lot 5 of skepticism of the people, not only NCN, but 6 South Indian, Split Lake, York Landing, Norway 7 House, Cross Lake, and any other people that live 8 within that area, because so much was destroyed. 9 So much was lost because of the CRD. 10 When we talked to the people of NCN 11 and South Indian with respect to this project, we 12 try hard to explain to them that little or minimum 13 damage will be done to Wuskwatim itself with this 14 project, but it is so hard to get them to believe 15 that. Maybe they do believe it, or maybe they 16 don't, but, you know, you just sense it that they 17 don't really want to talk about it. Because every 18 time you start talking about Manitoba Hydro, right 19 away the first thing that pops in as response is, 20 what about CRD? And when that thought of the CRD 21 is so implanted in the people, it is so hard to be 22 able to talk to them with respect to this project. 23 Yes, as an individual I can see the 24 benefits of it, maybe long term, short term, 25 whatever. I won't be around to see the benefits 3558 1 of it -- maybe some of it, I don't know -- but I 2 can see the potential of it. You know, you hear 3 people talk about what the economic benefits would 4 be, I can see that. But yet I still sometimes 5 wonder, you know, what is going to really happen? 6 Maybe it is because I am an elder already or close 7 to being an elder, I have started to think like 8 them, but, you know, it is hard to believe how one 9 individual or, you know, a whole community of 10 elders start thinking the same way. 11 There is questions that they ask 12 sometimes that we have a tough time answering. We 13 have to go back to our experts to answer some of 14 them. Whether they get the right answer or not, I 15 don't know, that is another thing. It is really 16 hard to realize if they believe in what we tell 17 them, seeing that we are part of the community and 18 we are trying to help them understand what the 19 project is all about, but, like I say, we have a 20 hard time as to whether they believe us or not. 21 And that is something that we have to keep working 22 with and to see what the outcome would be of the 23 project and, you know, to see if what I see in it 24 is the truth, and that they can see it too, you 25 know, as time goes on. 3559 1 But I just -- none of us will ever 2 know until we vote, everybody votes on the PDA as 3 to whether the project goes ahead or not. We have 4 to wait for that time. Like I said, I don't think 5 that we can ever change the minds of the elders. 6 At least, you know, for them to agree that the 7 project go ahead or whatever, I don't think that 8 we can ever do that. You know, because they say 9 that there is a lot that still has to be solved, 10 corrected, by Manitoba Hydro, Manitoba Government, 11 the Federal Government, a lot of obligations that 12 they made under the Northern Flood Agreement still 13 haven't been fulfilled. Some have been fulfilled, 14 but there is still a lot that needs to be done. I 15 think that is what the elders and a lot of people 16 in Nelson House are looking for, for those to be 17 settled first, settle everything from the past, 18 and then ask them, can we go ahead with Wuskwatim? 19 I don't know what kind of answer we will get. 20 I didn't have a question but this is 21 sort of -- I wanted to get this off my chest, just 22 to sort of give my views of it, how I see it, how 23 the elders see it, how the other people see it. I 24 have talked to young people, I have talked to 25 middle aged people, and I get the sense from all 3560 1 of them that they have a lot of questions. 2 And as the panel has said, including 3 Mr. Thomas, the information with respect to this 4 project has gone out, I don't know, we called it 5 what, a ten mile stretch of paper or whatever, but 6 a lot of information has gone out to the 7 community. And I think they have a good 8 understanding of it but, you know, they don't let 9 us know as to whether they understand it fully or 10 not. But it has been given to them, explained to 11 them in both -- well, I have interpreted quite a 12 bit of it on an individual basis to some of them. 13 We have interpreted it, the executive summary, we 14 are going to be interpreting the SOU, we are going 15 to be interpreting other documents that I think 16 will be of help to get the people that don't 17 understand English, or are unable to comprehend 18 what is going on, maybe by interpretation of those 19 documents they will get a better understanding of 20 what is going on and what the consequences or 21 impacts of it will be, maybe they will get a 22 better understanding. 23 Again, I say it is going to be very 24 hard. You know, I don't want to predict anything. 25 Sure, we will have the referendum, but the outcome 3561 1 of it, I don't know. Maybe it will go through, 2 maybe not. 3 And last, but not least, I just want 4 to say that, I don't know if anybody has ever gone 5 back to where they were born and looked at the 6 difference of your homeland. I was born not right 7 in that area where that picture is, but straight 8 across north of where that picture is taken, that 9 is where I was born. I am proud to be from 10 Wuskwatim. And like I said, I got nothing against 11 what is being built there, at least I get a nice 12 big chunk of compensation from it, that is all I 13 am asking for. Maybe a nice mansion where I can 14 go and retire next year. 15 But anyway, I hope you sort of get the 16 feeling of what I have been through in consulting 17 with the elders, and also the same with all of the 18 other consultants. We have given our utmost to 19 help the group to help the project, not to go 20 through or be approved, that we find out, but just 21 to give them a good understanding of it, to see 22 what it will do, what we can get out of it, things 23 like that. That is about it. 24 I just want to thank the Commissioners 25 for allowing me to speak. I don't know, maybe 3562 1 somebody wants to ask me something of exactly 2 where I was born or whatever. If you want to ask 3 me, I will try and answer it. But like I say, 4 Wuskwatim is totally different from when I was 5 born and raised there to what I see there today. 6 It is not the same. And I think that is the way 7 the older people feel and, you know, I can 8 understand that they feel that way. But, again, I 9 hope that it does go through for the benefit of 10 the economics, the benefits that there are there. 11 And if we can get them to realize that, I think 12 that maybe it will go through. Thank you. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Yes, sir. 14 MR. OSBORNE: William Osborne, 15 Pimicikamak. (SPEAKING CREE) 16 I thank you for speaking about your 17 feelings, as the lady has said earlier. You said 18 you have met numerous elders. Having lived for 19 many, many years by you and I and everybody else 20 in this beautiful place called "KiKiwakin," are 21 they familiar with the Northern Flood Agreement? 22 MR. SPENCE: That is tough to answer, 23 but I think that they know what the Northern Flood 24 Agreement was, they were present when it was being 25 signed, and it was signed I think in 1977 in 3563 1 Winnipeg, but it was brought around to the 2 communities and the people were told that it was 3 signed and what the Northern Flood Agreement was 4 all about, and what it was going to bring to the 5 people with respect to compensation, whatever, 6 that was contained as obligations in the Northern 7 Flood Agreement. 8 MR. OSBORNE: Are they familiar with 9 article 9.2 of the Northern Flood Agreement? 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you have asked 11 those questions the other day and we said this is 12 not about the Northern Flood Agreement. As a 13 panel, we have no mandate, no guidelines dealing 14 with the Northern Flood Agreement. 15 MR. OSBORNE: Mr. Chairman, if I can 16 respond to you. He was put there to speak, and 17 every person that is put there is to be asked a 18 question relevant to what they are discussing, 19 directly or indirectly related to the project that 20 we are talking about here. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: You are asking specific 22 details about the Northern Flood Agreement, and 23 Mr. Spence says that he doesn't know the details. 24 You asked a general question and he answered you, 25 so -- see if you have other questions. 3564 1 MR. OSBORNE: Are you telling me not 2 to ask any more questions? 3 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I didn't say that. 4 I said that that particular question maybe was 5 beyond what Mr. Spence was prepared to answer. 6 MR. OSBORNE: It is relative to the 7 project that we are discussing here. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have questions? 9 MR. OSBORNE: That is okay, thank you. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 11 MR. SPENCE: With respect to the 12 Northern Flood Agreement, I think that there is 13 about 10, 11, 12 articles in there, and there is 14 schedules, there is references and that. It has 15 been awhile since I opened that book. I have got 16 a copy of it myself, the original Northern Flood 17 Agreement, but I never look at it unless I want 18 some information to sort of help me out with this 19 process, and it has been a lot of help. But like 20 I say, I am not too familiar with any of the 21 articles. I know there are quite a few articles, 22 but I don't know too much about them to be able to 23 explain in any way what the Northern Flood 24 Agreement is. But, you know, I worked in 25 formulating the Northern Flood Agreement, and it 3565 1 seems odd that I don't know anything about it, but 2 like I say, it has been a while since I opened to 3 read it. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Sir, you 5 have a question? 6 MR. MILLER: Nelson Miller, 7 Pimicikamak. (SPEAKING CREE) 8 I just told Mr. Spence that I 9 appreciate the way he spoke, and I felt for him. 10 My question is, Mr. Spence, in looking at, you 11 know, your home, have you had a chance, and your 12 people, to go back there and look for your 13 artifacts, your history that is there, did you 14 guys have a chance to go back there and take care 15 of everything like that before this has taken 16 place? 17 MR. SPENCE: I will say this much. 18 Like, during the whole process of the Northern 19 Flood Agreement, and even with this process, there 20 has been a lot of archeological work done to find 21 remains of our ancestors or artifacts or whatever, 22 not only in Wuskwatim but throughout the whole 23 area of the project. Just like spiritual sites, 24 burial grounds, or maybe even where people used to 25 live in the Wuskwatim area, down below Wuskwatim 3566 1 or above. And there has been a lot of work done. 2 There has been a lot artifacts found, but they 3 have all been taken to Winnipeg and are still 4 there, some of them, in the Manitoba Museum. And 5 the remains of the ancestors that were found were 6 analyzed and, you know, documentation was made of 7 it, and then they were brought back to Nelson 8 House for reburial in a special area that was made 9 for that, for any bones or remains of our 10 ancestors that lived in those areas back then were 11 found, but reburied in a special ground that was 12 made in Nelson House near one of the original 13 graveyards there. 14 As far as me going back to Wuskwatim, 15 I have been there a few times, you know, I have 16 gone there to camp, I have gone there to 17 participate in two -- one of the ceremonies we had 18 there to bless some of the sites that were there, 19 to go to the dancing circle and sort of share our 20 feelings there as a group. It was hard for me to 21 go back there, but once I got there, I felt like I 22 was at home, but not on the same footing that I 23 used to have. And I think that if you ask that of 24 other people that maybe were born there or lived 25 there, I think they will give you the same answer. 3567 1 It is hard to go back and see the area where you 2 were born not being the same as it used to be. 3 MR. MILLER: (SPEAKING CREE.) Thank 4 you. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Spence. 6 MR. SPENCE: You are welcome. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no other 8 presenters, I will call adjournment for today. We 9 will meet again at 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning. 10 11 (ADJOURNED AT 9:45 P.M.) 12 13