3568 1 MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION 2 3 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT 4 Volume 15 5 6 Including List of Participants 7 8 9 10 Hearing 11 12 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project 13 14 Presiding: 15 Gerard Lecuyer, Chair 16 Kathi Kinew 17 Harvey Nepinak 18 Robert Mayer 19 Terry Sargeant 20 21 Friday, March 26, 2004 22 Kikiwak Inn 23 The Pas, Manitoba 24 25 3569 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Clean Environment Commission: 4 Gerard Lecuyer Chairman 5 Terry Sargeant Member 6 Harvey Nepinak Member 7 Kathi Avery Kinew Member 8 Doug Abra Counsel to Commission 9 Rory Grewar Staff 10 CEC Advisors: 11 Mel Falk 12 Dave Farlinger 13 Jack Scriven 14 Jim Sandison 15 Jean McClellan 16 Brent McLean 17 Kyla Gibson 18 19 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation: 20 Chief Jerry Primrose 21 Elvis Thomas 22 Campbell MacInnes 23 Valerie Matthews Lemieux 24 25 3570 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Manitoba Conservation: 4 Larry Strachan 5 6 Manitoba Hydro/NCN: 7 Doug Bedford, Counsel 8 Bob Adkins, Counsel 9 Marvin Shaffer 10 Ed Wojczynski 11 Ken Adams 12 Carolyn Wray 13 Ron Mazur 14 Lloyd Kuczek 15 Cam Osler 16 Stuart Davies 17 David Hicks 18 Elizabeth Hicks 19 George Rempel 20 David Cormie 21 Alex Fleming 22 Marvin Shaffer 23 Blair McMahon 24 25 3571 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 4 5 Presenters: 6 Dr. Anthony Bos - Kewwatin Community College 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3572 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE 3 4 OTH-1018: Presentation of Councillor Darcy 5 Linklater, Portfolio Councillor for 6 Treaty Land Entitlement, 7 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation to the 8 Environment Commission 3576 9 10 OTH-1019: Land selection and eligibility 11 confirmation process, Treaty Land 12 Entitlement Initiative, October 13 2003 update 3576 14 15 OTH-1020: A map, potential Hydro easements, 16 Manasan Project, NCN Birchtree 17 Brook selections, TLE selections, 18 combined proposed compensation 19 lands 3577 20 21 OTH-1021: Figure 1, Provincial Hydro power 22 resource, undeveloped Hydro 3577 23 24 25 3573 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE 3 OTH-1022: The full framework agreement, 4 Treaty Land Entitlement, Treaty 5 Land Entitlement Committee of 6 Manitoba, and her Majesty the Queen 7 Right of Canada, Her Majesty the 8 Queen Right of Manitoba, May 29, 9 1997 3577 10 MH/NCN-1027: Undertaking MH-17, financial 11 projections of Wuskwatim assuming a 12 15 percent increase in capital 13 costs, low export prices and 14 drought 3591 15 16 OTH-1023: Presentation to the Manitoba Clean 17 Environment Commission, March 26, 18 2004, by Keewatin Community 19 College 3628 20 21 MH/NCN-1028: March 2004 update summary of 22 consultation with NCN members re: 23 The Wuskwatim Generation project 24 and the Wuskwatim Transmission 25 project 3630 3574 1 INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS 2 3 UNDERTAKING NO. PAGE 4 5 6 NO UNDERTAKINGS GIVEN 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3575 1 Friday, March 26, 2004 2 Upon commencing at 9:00 a.m. 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning, without 5 any additional comments, I pass the word to you, 6 Mr. Grewar. 7 MR. GREWAR: Good morning, 8 Mr. Chairman, thank you. We have a number of 9 exhibits to enter first thing this morning. These 10 come out of a presentation made on March 23rd, by 11 Darcy Linklater. And so the first exhibit would 12 be OTH-1018. It is the presentation of Councillor 13 Darcy Linklater, Portfolio Councillor for Treaty 14 Land Entitlement, Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation to 15 the Environment Commission, and that would be 16 OTH-1018. Attached to his presentation were the 17 following documents: Land selection and 18 eligibility confirmation process, Treaty Land 19 Entitlement Initiative, October 2003 update, as 20 OTH-1019. A map, potential Hydro easements, 21 Manasan Project, NCN Birchtree Brook selections, 22 TLE selections, combined proposed compensation 23 lands, and it is a map, and it is entitled 24 OTH-1020. 25 Figure 1, Provincial Hydro power 3576 1 resource, undeveloped Hydro, OTH-1021. 2 And finally the full framework 3 agreement, Treaty Land Entitlement, Treaty Land 4 Entitlement Committee of Manitoba, and her Majesty 5 the Queen Right of Canada, Her Majesty the Queen 6 right of Manitoba, May 29, 1997, as OTH-1022. 7 And we have copies of all of those 8 documents, except the full framework agreement 9 which we just have one copy to file. Thank you, 10 Mr. Chairman. I believe Manitoba Hydro has some 11 undertakings they wanted to bring forward at this 12 time. 13 14 (EXHIBIT OTH-1018: Presentation of 15 Councillor Darcy Linklater, Portfolio 16 Councillor for Treaty Land 17 Entitlement, Nisichawayasihk Cree 18 Nation to the Environment Commission) 19 20 (EXHIBIT OTH-1019: Land selection and 21 eligibility confirmation process, 22 Treaty Land Entitlement Initiative, 23 October 2003 update) 24 25 3577 1 (EXHIBIT OTH-1020: A map, potential 2 Hydro easements, Manasan Project, NCN 3 Birchtree Brook selections, TLE 4 selections, combined proposed 5 compensation lands) 6 7 (EXHIBIT OTH-1021: Figure 1, 8 Provincial Hydro power resource, 9 undeveloped Hydro) 10 11 (EXHIBIT OTH-1022: The full framework 12 agreement, Treaty Land Entitlement, 13 Treaty Land Entitlement Committee of 14 Manitoba, and her Majesty the Queen 15 Right of Canada, Her Majesty the Queen 16 Right of Manitoba, May 29, 1997) 17 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 19 Mr. Bedford. 20 MR. BEDFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 21 Mr. Wojczynski will speak to two of these. One of 22 them is the response to an undertaking to provide 23 an explanation as to why predictions for the 24 average flow on Missi Falls is less than 25 historical monthly discharge. Mr. Wojczynski will 3578 1 also speak briefly to the table that has been 2 prepared showing the participation of the Manitoba 3 Metis Federation, and the public involvement 4 activities that were undertaken. And Ms. Lynn 5 Wray will speak to the lengthiest of the three 6 undertakings, which is with respect to financial 7 projections of Wuskwatim, assuming a 15 percent 8 increase in base capital costs, low export prices 9 and drought. 10 I made a mistake. We are going to 11 have Mr. Cormie speak to the undertaking regarding 12 Missi Falls. So I will hang on to it until we go 13 back to Winnipeg. 14 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: The first undertaking 15 was regarding the question from the CEC as to 16 whether or not Manitoba Hydro had received a 17 letter or correspondence or an official request 18 from the Manitoba Metis Federation for a 19 consultation meeting on Wuskwatim. What I had 20 said at the time, subject to check, and I said we 21 would have an undertaking to go and confirm. What 22 I said at the time was that we had not had any 23 request for consultation, although we had had 24 correspondence, discussions and meetings regarding 25 pre-project training. So we went back to our 3579 1 files and checked with all of the various people 2 working on the various aspects, and can confirm 3 that there has been no request from MMF for a 4 consultation meeting. We had correspondence with 5 them on pre-project training, and we had requested 6 meetings, they had responded back and there have 7 been a series of meetings. But not on the -- 8 there had not been a request from them on general 9 consultations on Wuskwatim. The undertaking that 10 I believe has been distributed or is being 11 distributed is essentially a table documenting 12 participation of the MMF in the public involvement 13 activities more generally with Wuskwatim, and it 14 is listing the -- Mr. Osler the same day had 15 spoken on the issue and this is a summary 16 extracted from the earlier information of when we 17 had invited MMF representatives to the various 18 consultation meetings on Wuskwatim. And I note 19 particularly that in round 3, Mr. Darryl 20 Montgomery had been in attendance. Anyway, I 21 think that the rest probably speaks for itself. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 23 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: I had another 24 undertaking. There is nothing in writing, it is 25 just verbal. There had been a request about our 3580 1 transmission, in use of our transmission into 2 Saskatchewan and just a clarification, 3 confirmation, that we are not planning on building 4 any transmission, specifically Wuskwatim, that is 5 not in our plans and that we would only be 6 building additional transmission if some new 7 circumstances arose and there were advantageous 8 prospects in Saskatchewan. There actually had 9 been a re-direct and then some questioning on that 10 later on. So just to confirm that. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Sargeant. 12 MR. SARGEANT: Mr. Wojczynski, still 13 on this MMF participation. Were these invitations 14 just as part of a general invitation to a number 15 of people to attend these open houses? 16 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Yes, they were. And 17 that is why they are called open houses. So these 18 were not just to MMF, this was to MMF as well as 19 other people. 20 MR. SARGEANT: So there haven't been 21 any sort of specific -- there hasn't been a 22 specific invitation to MMF to meet only with MMF 23 on this matter? 24 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: No, not -- except for 25 pre-project training, we did not issue an 3581 1 invitation for a MMF only meeting. 2 MR. SARGEANT: Have there been 3 invitations to any other like groups to meet only 4 with them? 5 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: We have had 6 invitations, for instance, to MKO representatives 7 as part of a more general meeting. 8 MR. SARGEANT: But part of a general 9 meeting, not a specific let's sit down and just 10 you and us talk? 11 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: The only place where 12 we have specific meetings is with specific 13 communities, downstream communities, but not 14 organizations per se. 15 MR. SARGEANT: So nobody else has got 16 the type of invitation that MMF seems to be 17 indicating they feel they deserve or -- 18 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: That's correct. 19 MR. SARGEANT: Okay. Thank you. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 21 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 22 enter the table that Mr. Wojczynski has just 23 presented. Table participation of the Manitoba 24 Metis Federation in public activities associated 25 with the Wuskwatim project. It will be entered as 3582 1 exhibit MH/NCN 1026. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wojczynski. 3 MS. AVERY KINEW: Sorry, I was just 4 wondering, Mr. Wojczynski, in two presentations we 5 heard from MMF vice presidents they said it was at 6 Canada's insistence that discussions occurred with 7 them on pre-employment training. And I was just 8 wondering if they were in the latter part or 9 middle or beginning of discussions? 10 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: I will have to come 11 back. I will give you a subject to check answer. 12 We may have to come back on this. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Adams. 14 MR. ADAMS: Again, I have to qualify 15 it a little bit subject to check, mostly because 16 of dates. But approximately two, maybe two and a 17 half years ago, Manitoba Hydro entered into a 18 discussion with MMF on a whole variety of issues, 19 including employment opportunities within the 20 company and created a, whether we call it a 21 working group, a committee or something of that 22 nature. And one of the topics for discussion at 23 that time was future development. So that was 24 running and that was running parallel. Then we 25 got into serious discussions with the five First 3583 1 Nations with whom we were trying to partner and 2 the Provincial Government on the pre-project 3 training initiative. And the agreement that we 4 had with Manitoba, MAET, Manitoba Advanced 5 Education and Training, was that 25 percent of the 6 available funds would be available for other 7 northern Aboriginals, which is all of the 8 Aboriginals in the north excluding the five 9 communities that we are dealing with. And that 10 MAET would administer that funding. As we went 11 through a very lengthy process of trying to 12 negotiate the structural arrangements and how to 13 make this work, and entered into some very 14 preliminary discussions with the Federal 15 Government, it became apparent that from the 16 Federal Government's perspective they needed what 17 they call a "pan" Aboriginal participation. From 18 their perspective it would not be adequate for us 19 to simply partner with the five First Nations in 20 this training initiative. 21 And so at that point we initiated 22 discussions with MMF, MKO, and other umbrella 23 Aboriginal organizations. And so it is not easy 24 to give a simple yes or no answer to that one. It 25 wasn't -- we were not talking to MMF simply 3584 1 because the Federal Government told us to, because 2 we have been in a form of consultation with them 3 over a fairly lengthy period, but as we started to 4 deal with the Federal Government representatives 5 and started to understand how their programs work 6 and the sorts of requirements that they had for 7 administering it -- and remember too, the Federal 8 Government is very conscious of some of the 9 administrative failures they have had in their 10 funding programs, and I will choose my words 11 carefully, it is a polite way of putting, they are 12 posing what we consider to be, appropriately so, 13 we don't object to it, but very, very rigorous 14 standards on the whole process. So I appreciate 15 it is not a nice simple yes/no answer, but it is a 16 very complicated process that changes on an 17 ongoing basis, and we haven't reached the end of 18 it yet. I mean, we don't have the Federal money 19 in hand, and so if they come back with another set 20 of requirements then we will have to go back to 21 the drawing board and do whatever they need. Does 22 that help any? 23 MS. AVERY KINEW: Yes, thank you. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: So having said that, it 25 is not excluded that there could be other 3585 1 discussions with MMF? 2 MR. ADAMS: We anticipate that there 3 will continue to be discussions on a wide variety 4 of topics with MMF, including rejuvenation of some 5 of the structural organizations that we put in 6 place to deal with it. 7 MS. AVERY KINEW: The working group. 8 MR. ADAMS: Yes. And from our 9 perspective these discussions would include a 10 broad spectrum of activities from employment 11 training activities in our core operations, 12 employment and training opportunities for say 13 within the projects, and we will continue to 14 negotiate or discuss with individual communities 15 rehabilitation, compensation type arrangements for 16 any issues or problems that they see from existing 17 or previous operations. And to the extent that 18 those individual communities or organizations wish 19 to engage external organizations such as MMF to 20 help them, that is their business. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr. Sargeant. 22 MR. SARGEANT: I can give a notice of 23 question, but because I think it is more 24 appropriately answered when MMF comes before us in 25 Winnipeg. But at that time I'm going to want to 3586 1 know Hydro's interpretation of recommendation 4.1 2 from the AJI implementation. It is contained in 3 Mr. Desjarlais' paper of yesterday. 4 MR. ADAMS: We will be happy to know. 5 At some point we will be happy to respond to that. 6 There may be an issue of when and who is best 7 prepared to do that. 8 MR. SARGEANT: It is probably most 9 appropriately discussed when MMF is there. And I 10 believe it will also be at some point counsel from 11 the Province's constitutional branch that we might 12 want to discuss it at that point as well. 13 MR. ADAMS: Yes, sir. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Thomas. 15 MR. THOMAS: With respect to the 16 questions that are being put forward with regard 17 to our consultation effort with the Manitoba Metis 18 Federation, I should point out that, first of all, 19 the individual who spoke yesterday spoke as an 20 individual with regard to the presentation that 21 was done by the Manitoba Metis Federation 22 representative. Mr. Moose was not speaking on 23 behalf of the future development team nor Chief 24 and Council, but he spoke as an individual. I 25 just want to make sure that that is part of the 3587 1 record. 2 We did engage in consultative efforts, 3 and I believe that you have the documentation with 4 you in terms of our consultative record with the 5 MMF. And if not, I understand that there is an 6 undertaking to provide you with that information. 7 We did send a number of letters to a lot of people 8 that are involved with the Manitoba Metis 9 Federation. We had at one point in time been with 10 the Commission, I believe, when we met with two of 11 the Metis representatives where we had a chance to 12 talk about what we were doing with the Wuskwatim. 13 Chief Primrose and myself, and a 14 number of my technical team did meet with the 15 president of the Manitoba Metis Federation. We 16 did discuss the Wuskwatim project in general. But 17 the focus of our meeting was to try and figure out 18 how to deal with the training issues. And we 19 discussed that, and we were -- I believe it still 20 may happen yet, committed to have another session 21 with Mr. David Chartrand, who is the president of 22 the MMF. So we are, on NCN's part, making efforts 23 to consult with the Manitoba Metis Federation. 24 With respect to the comment that 25 Canada forces us to do things, I'm not so easily 3588 1 convinced as a member of NCN, and as a leader of 2 NCN, that that is the way things occurred. We 3 have been adamant that we are not going to be 4 following the old ways of doing things because 5 those old ways have not been conducive to the best 6 interests of my people. And Canada is not exactly 7 a perfect example when it comes to making sure 8 that the best interests of Aboriginal people are 9 being looked after. 10 So with respect to that, when we talk 11 about funding for training and other employment 12 situations, we endeavor to make sure that NCN will 13 have an opportunity to access as much of that 14 money as possible. But we also know for a fact 15 that we can not keep all of that money for 16 ourselves. And we don't desire too either, 17 because we know that we have to share the rewards 18 and benefits from this activity. And when we talk 19 about other Aboriginal people, we know that that 20 includes the Manitoba Metis people, and they have 21 to be accommodated. 22 We, as NCN, strive to ensure that they 23 are captured within the framework of the term 24 Aboriginal. Not only that, but we also look to 25 northern peoples as well. So we don't restrict 3589 1 ourselves when we are in discussions with respect 2 to funding and employment opportunities for people 3 in general. Thank you. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any more 5 questions? Thank you, very much. Ms. Wray. 6 MS. WRAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 7 The undertaking which I'm addressing is one which 8 was requested by CEC counsel and relates to what 9 one might call an extreme adverse scenario and 10 what the financial impacts might be on Manitoba 11 Hydro and its ratepayers. We've provided the 12 financial statements, which is what was requested, 13 of the impacts of Wuskwatim coming into service 14 with a very severe drought equivalent to the worst 15 on record, having a 15 percent increase in capital 16 costs and also having low export prices, the 17 lowest in the range that we presented. The 18 results are presented, as I mentioned, in the 19 financial statements, but we also provided a 20 couple of graphs emphasizing the two areas which 21 we believe are probably of particular interest, 22 which is the impact on the debt ratio at the front 23 end of Wuskwatim coming into service. This would 24 speak to the impacts on Manitoba Hydro's financial 25 stability. 3590 1 Also a graph indicating the impact on 2 long term customer bill benefits. 3 We've also provided, although we were 4 not requested to do so, the impact if a drought 5 and an increase in capital costs were combined 6 with high export prices simply because that is a 7 more likely combination. This is something that 8 we are certainly seeing during the current 9 drought, high export prices are also high import 10 prices, and there is an increasing tendency on the 11 part of the markets that we deal with to charge 12 higher imports when Manitoba Hydro has a need to 13 import, and I think that is just the way of the 14 marketplace. 15 Looking at the combination, however, 16 of the low export prices and the drought and the 17 high capital costs, which is what was requested, 18 we can see that in the figure 17.1, the impact at 19 the front end on Manitoba Hydro's debt ratio is to 20 increase it by 2 percent. So not much more than 21 the 1.6 percent which we had provided under 22 expected outcomes. And that debt, temporary 23 increase in the debt ratio is recovered within a 24 relatively short time. 25 The second graph, figure MH17.2, 3591 1 indicates the potential customer rate benefits or 2 savings that would result, and under that extreme 3 adverse and very unlikely combination. Even there 4 by 2035 in today's dollars there would be 5 $75 million of potential customer rate savings. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mrs. Wray. 7 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 8 enter Hydro's undertaking MH-17, financial 9 projections of Wuskwatim assuming a 15 percent 10 increase in capital costs, low export prices and 11 drought as MH/NCN 1027. 12 13 (EXHIBIT MH/NCN-1027: Undertaking 14 MH-17, financial projections of 15 Wuskwatim assuming a 15 percent 16 increase in capital costs, low export 17 prices and drought) 18 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Grewar, 20 any other undertakings, Mr. Bedford? 21 MR. BEDFORD: Not this morning. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mayer. 23 MR. MAYER: I recognize this isn't 24 Hydro's undertaking, but attached to Darcy 25 Linklater's presentation is a list of what you 3592 1 call undeveloped hydro. Those of us who drove 2 from Thompson to The Pas, stopped at both Weskusko 3 Falls and Pisew Falls. And it would disturb me, 4 and I am assuming the rest of us at this table, if 5 we ever thought you were going to dam those two, 6 or were in fact going to dam the Grass River. Can 7 somebody sort of give us some assurances that the 8 Grass River is still one of those protected 9 rivers, as is the Hays and Gods River which is 10 also on these lists? 11 MR. ADAMS: Subject to checking, Mr. 12 Mayer, I do not think that the Grass River is 13 protected in the same context as the Hays and the 14 Seal. I haven't had a chance to look at that 15 particular list. But that is a sort of a shopping 16 list of every known potential site in the 17 province. 18 MR. MAYER: It does appear that way. 19 MR. ADAMS: The probability of 20 developing the majority of those sites ever in our 21 mind is very, very low. I can't imagine that 22 Manitoba Hydro, at least in my life time, would be 23 interested in a 4-megawatt site on the Grass 24 River. Remember, Manitoba Hydro does not have 25 exclusive rights to hydro development in Manitoba. 3593 1 Anybody can develop a hydro site, providing they 2 get a license from the various authorities. 3 MR. MAYER: Manitoba Hydro has the 4 monopoly on the sale of whatever power may be 5 generated from those rivers? 6 MR. ADAMS: Not necessarily. 7 MR. MAYER: To the public. 8 MR. ADAMS: To Manitobans, but under 9 the open access transmission tariff, anybody in 10 Manitoba can build a generating station and buy 11 transmission capability and sell it outside of the 12 province. Now whether or not it is economic is 13 another issue, but the right is there. 14 MR. MAYER: That would make the 15 transmission tariff much more important to the 16 Public Utility Board then, wouldn't it? 17 MR. ADAMS: I can't speak on behalf of 18 the Public Utilities Board. 19 MR. MAYER: We won't go there right 20 now. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Adams. 22 Ms. Matthews Lemieux. 23 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: We have a 24 response to undertaking number 22. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Thomas. 3594 1 MR. THOMAS: Thank you. With respect 2 to undertaking number 22, about whether revenues 3 will be shared with off reserve members, NCN and 4 its members at South Indian Lake are currently 5 involved in discussions about the division of 6 assets for the purposes of separate reserve status 7 for the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin. And it is not 8 anticipated that revenues will be shared with any 9 other First Nations, including O-Pipon-Na-Piwin, 10 if it becomes established. 11 NCN's current trust indicates that 12 monies will be used for NCN members living 13 principally, but not exclusively on reserve. It 14 is anticipated that there will be a similar 15 provision in a new trust that we are currently 16 working on. 17 Under our current trust no per capita 18 distributions to individual members are permitted. 19 It is anticipated that at least in early years 20 when dividends are smaller, there will be similar 21 prohibitions. We have also an individual claims 22 process for individual members who wish to make 23 adverse effects claims. SIL claims in this 24 context are excluded and it is anticipated that 25 they would continue to be. 3595 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Questions? Mr. Mayer. 2 MR. MAYER: Mr. Thomas, that is 3 firstly the understanding that there will be no 4 individual payouts and all of the funds will be 5 used basically for the benefit of the community. 6 The thing that immediately jumps to mind is the 7 number of kids, northern kids, Aboriginal, 8 non-Aboriginal, who find themselves going to 9 university in the south facing the prospect of the 10 first time away from home, not to mention the 11 first time in a university atmosphere. Would the 12 trust, because I recognize that you have a number 13 of members -- the Brandon university appears to be 14 a first choice for many northerners. But would 15 the trust look at something like the construction 16 of a residence for university students from the 17 north particularly that would allow them some 18 continued interaction with people that they would 19 know better, and possibly some support services 20 that would come with it? Because I do know that a 21 number of kids get blown out in the first year. 22 MR. THOMAS: The observations are 23 indeed accurate with respect to the difficulties 24 of going into a new situation. I remember, and 25 this is just from Nelson House moving to Thompson 3596 1 to go to school, high school, back when I was 2 about 12 years old, and I was in a severe state of 3 culture shock coming from a reserve into a 4 city-like environment. It was just totally 5 amazing to me. And we had a lot of difficulties 6 trying to adjust to a totally different way of 7 life. Quite often many of us face those kind of 8 hurdles when we come to non-First Nations 9 communities or cities to pursue educational 10 endeavors. 11 At this point in time the idea of 12 providing supports for educational endeavors is in 13 my mind a very high priority. But I would have to 14 take it to the community to see what they want to 15 do with the proceeds of the trust. It is 16 certainly a worthwhile thing to pursue. We have 17 many ideas as to what we could do and how we can 18 divvy up the assets so that it targets specific 19 areas of need. Housing, education, economic 20 development, are a number of areas where specific 21 amounts perhaps could be allocated and perhaps 22 maybe proposals could come forward under those 23 umbrella terms to see what could actually be done 24 with the proceeds. 25 If monies can be allocated to 3597 1 education, certainly we would do everything that 2 we can to provide incentives and supports for our 3 people who desire to pursue different forms of 4 education. 5 MR. MAYER: Thank you, sir. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 7 MS. AVERY KINEW: Mr. Thomas, what was 8 the phrase that was in your trust presently, 9 exclusively but not principally for on reserve? 10 Or the other way around. 11 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 12 MS. AVERY KINEW: And did people have 13 a voice in building the trust, as you say, ideas 14 about -- 15 MR. THOMAS: For the previous trust or 16 the current trust that we have, the 1996 17 implementation agreement, the Chief and Council 18 were involved and the negotiators were involved in 19 the creation of that trust and the advisors as 20 well. And it is a little bit different from the 21 way that we are trying to do things at this point 22 in time. 23 Yes, we do want to involve our people 24 in the creation of the trust and what kind of 25 terms or processes will be put in place in terms 3598 1 of what needs to be done with the principal or the 2 capital dollars that will be there, and how to set 3 up a process for determining how it can be used, 4 if anything should be done. 5 I mean, we are talking about a major 6 amount at a certain point in time. The general 7 idea, and this of course is subject to being taken 8 to the community, is to take the dividends from 9 the revenues that will be generated to our 10 partnership, and to try and build on the principal 11 so that you will have more interest to work with 12 further on down the road. If anything is to be 13 done with the principal, then you definitely would 14 have to go through a community process in order to 15 ensure that I myself as an individual will not be 16 able to be in a position to just make a snap 17 decision to do something with that trust, or just 18 Chief and Council, that it should be Chief and 19 Council and the community that make that decision. 20 And we need to establish a process for 21 ensuring that we have protections in there for the 22 long term interests of the community. 23 MS. AVERY KINEW: Are you planning to 24 do a separate vote for the trust and the PDA? 25 MR. THOMAS: At this point in time we 3599 1 haven't made any definite conclusions as to which 2 way to take it. Perhaps it can be included in our 3 consultation process as we develop our PDA. It 4 may be included, or it could be included as an 5 attachment or as an addendum or another agreement 6 contained as part of the PDA. 7 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sargeant. 9 MR. SARGEANT: Councillor Thomas, when 10 a group such as the group at South Indian Lake 11 seeks to split and gain their own First Nations 12 status, I assume that comes under the Indian Act? 13 MR. THOMAS: Yes. 14 MR. SARGEANT: Is there a division of 15 assets? 16 MR. THOMAS: It is an issue that we 17 are currently involved in discussions with regard 18 to the separation issues. Keep in mind that this 19 is not something that is of our own devising. 20 This is something that was done by the Government 21 of Canada way back when, when treaties were signed 22 and reserves were created. Some of our people 23 decided to stay in the summer hunting area and 24 some decided to go and stay in the winter hunting 25 area. For those that stayed in the summer hunting 3600 1 area which is referred to as the Nisichawayasihk 2 area, that is where the reserve boundaries were 3 created, and even then those weren't completely 4 done. We had to go through a treaty land 5 entitlement process to get the rest. 6 But the people who stayed in the 7 winter hunting area, the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin area, 8 stayed in the area that they preferred to stay in 9 but they were included as part of our membership. 10 But because they were not living on reserve per 11 se, there have been limited amounts of money 12 provided by our fiduciaries to ensure that our NCN 13 members are being looked after. 14 I must say that the record of the 15 Government in that area has been woefully 16 inadequate. We have to protect the interests of 17 all of our people. But we can't assume the 18 obligations of the Government of Canada when it 19 comes to satisfying the needs of the 20 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation. What we do receive 21 for them, we will be providing to the 22 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin. What they don't receive from 23 us, from the Government, they are going to have to 24 discuss those issues amongst each other. We are 25 definitely not in a position as an NCN entity or 3601 1 Government to assume the obligations of the 2 Government of Canada in the area of provision of 3 any assets to the community as it would need. 4 MR. SARGEANT: I can fully understand 5 that. So has there always been a separate 6 community at South Indian Lake? 7 MR. THOMAS: There has always been a 8 number of different areas in our traditional 9 territory that have been used by many of our 10 people, band members, Cree people. We have moved 11 from place to place to place quite a bit prior to 12 the creation of treaties and reserves. And we did 13 not necessarily divide ourselves up as, you know, 14 here is South Indian and here is Pukatawagan and 15 here is Nelson House and here is such and such 16 kind of thing, we just mixed as we moved along. 17 That is basically the way we have lived our lives. 18 MR. SARGEANT: I guess I used the 19 wrong descriptor. When I used the word always, 20 I'm not thinking in your terms of 7500 years, I'm 21 thinking since treaty. But since treaty there has 22 been basically two distinct communities? 23 MR. THOMAS: We have always seen 24 ourselves as one people. But at the same time 25 geographically we have occupied not only two 3602 1 areas, but a number of areas. 2 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 4 Mr. Nepinak. 5 MR. NEPINAK: Good morning, 6 councillor. Is the TLE distribution or allocation 7 part in the South Indian Lake area? 8 MR. THOMAS: The amount of knowledge 9 that I have with respect to the TLE is somewhat 10 limited. My colleague Darcy Linklater is the 11 person who has responsibility for that portfolio. 12 But I believe that there are provisions for the 13 sharing of some of the benefits that have 14 materialized through the TLE process. There is 15 some monies that are available for them, and I 16 believe maybe some land as well. But the exact 17 amounts, I'm not sure. 18 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Thomas. 20 We have a presentation. 21 MR. GREWAR: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Our 22 first presenter today is on behalf of Keewatin 23 community college, Anthony Bos. Dr. Bos. 24 DR. BOS: Good morning. My name is 25 Tony Bos. 3603 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar. 2 MR. GREWAR: Good morning, sir. 3 Having stated your name, Dr. Bos, are you aware 4 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 5 mislead this Commission? 6 DR. BOS: Yes. 7 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 8 only the truth in the proceedings before this 9 Commission? 10 DR. BOS: Yes, I do. 11 12 (DR. ANTHONY BOS: SWORN) 13 14 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed. 15 DR. BOS: Thank you, very much. Good 16 morning. My name is Tony Bos. I'm the president 17 of the Keewatin Community College. I have been in 18 Manitoba for almost six years, and my job involves 19 travel throughout the north. Our college operates 20 across northern communities. Our head office is 21 in the Pas, and my office is here but my job 22 requires travel throughout northern communities 23 and my perspective is one that is based upon that 24 experience, and my board has asked me to present 25 this perspective today. I have a prepared 3604 1 statement which I will be reading. 2 Members of the Clean Environment 3 Commission Review Panel, members of 4 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, Keewatin Community 5 College provides both secondary education and 6 training through a variety of diploma and 7 certificate programs in the areas of business, 8 trades and technologies, health and human services 9 and academic preparation. 10 The college operates campuses in The 11 Pas and Thompson, and regional centres in Flin 12 Flon, Churchill, Swan River, (shared with the 13 Assiniboine Community College), Pimicikamak Cree 14 Nation, (Cross Lake), Tataskweyak Cree Nation, 15 (Split Lake), Chemawawin Cree Nation, 16 (Easterville), Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, 17 (Nelson House), Mathias Colomb First Nation, 18 (Pukatawagan), and Norway House Cree Nation. 19 The college also works with a variety 20 of Provincial partners to deliver programs 21 throughout the north ranging from literacy to 22 university education. 23 Our college serves the communities of 24 Northern Manitoba, and for the last five years our 25 strategic goals have been linked to the 3605 1 development of a distributed network of regional 2 centres. To this end we are still discussing the 3 establishment of regional centres in other First 4 Nations communities in Northern Manitoba. As 5 well, our college has committed a significant 6 investment in communication technologies over the 7 last several years that continue to enhance the 8 ability of the college to deliver programs 9 throughout Northern Manitoba. 10 On behalf of the board of governors of 11 the Keewatin Community College, I'm very pleased 12 to have this opportunity to present our 13 institution's perspective regarding the proposed 14 construction of the Wuskwatim hydroelectric dam on 15 the Nelson River. Our comments will be restricted 16 to what we believe is our area of expertise and 17 where we have knowledge. Our college has no 18 mandate to comment on the environmental impact of 19 hydro development in Northern Manitoba. 20 The college is mandated to support the 21 social and economic well-being of northern 22 Manitobans through the provision of education and 23 training services, and we have an obligation to 24 support well-founded initiatives of northerners 25 and their communities to pursue economic 3606 1 prosperity. 2 In this regard we confirm our support 3 and respect for the aspirations of the people of 4 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation, and will do so by 5 engaging our resources and talents in the service 6 of the adopted goals of the people served. 7 As mentioned, KCC serves the learning 8 needs of Northern Manitobans, especially as these 9 relate to employment, and social and economic 10 development. In this connection our board of 11 governors created an institutional mission 12 supported with broad goal statements which guide 13 our institutional conduct. And I would like to 14 just mention these to you. 15 Enhance and increase opportunities for 16 northern residents to develop skills for the 17 Manitoba labour market. Enhance and increase 18 education access and learning support for 19 Aboriginal people and communities. Provide 20 education and skills training for northern 21 communities, industries and organizations designed 22 to meet particular skill requirements and 23 delivered in a manner compatible with the needs 24 and circumstances of the students. Build, in 25 partnership with the relevant stakeholders, the 3607 1 social and intellectual capital of northern 2 residents enabling the sustainable development and 3 diversification of the northern economy. 4 Our related operational roles are as 5 follows: As a community and regional learning 6 resource, the college will reflect the communities 7 and the people it serves. As the primary provider 8 of post-secondary education and adult learning in 9 Northern Manitoba, the staffing compliment of the 10 college will be representative of the population 11 of Northern Manitoba by 2008, at least that is our 12 goal. In order to be relevant to the majority of 13 the learners who enroll in KCC courses and 14 programs, the college will ensure that its core 15 values and operating structure explicitly reflect 16 the needs, values and expectations of its 17 customers. The college will continue to place 18 priority on the development of regional centres, 19 in partnership with northern communities, where 20 interest, need and commitment exist. The college 21 will fund innovations to its operating structure 22 to create maximum access to learners who are 23 dispersed across the region of Northern Manitoba. 24 The college places priority on the 25 maximum allocation of resources enabling the 3608 1 development of new programs and services in 2 response to the learning needs of the region it 3 serves, and will continuously evaluate and revise 4 its existing programs and services in this regard. 5 The college has embarked on an 6 ambitious path to implement these corporate goals. 7 Over the past five years the college has 8 established regional centre partnerships with six 9 First Nations communities in the north, including 10 the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. 11 These regional centres operate through 12 a funding partnership with the community and the 13 Government of Manitoba, and they are managed 14 wholly by a board of directors composed of a 15 balance of community members and college staff. 16 The centres exist as a way for the college to 17 understand and support a community's aspirations 18 for social and economic development through the 19 provision of services. I think that is a key 20 statement for the college. 21 Underlying this strategic development 22 is the college's commitment to make its 23 institutional agenda one of enabling the path 24 chosen by the communities of the north. 25 It is important to keep in mind in 3609 1 Northern Manitoba unemployment rates are 2 significantly higher in reserve communities than 3 in urban centres, and the link between 4 unemployment and social distress is well 5 documented. Rough estimates suggest there are 6 24,000 jobs in Northern Manitoba primarily located 7 in the urban industrial centres. This number 8 varies with economic conditions and the seasonal 9 nature of some of the work in the north. As well 10 there are some 40,000 people of labour force age 11 in Northern Manitoba. In other words, there are 12 significantly more people in Manitoba than there 13 are jobs. 14 Furthermore, demographic trends 15 indicate that the population of Northern Manitoba 16 is younger and getting younger. These new 17 entrants to the labour force need the availability 18 of opportunity which is scarce in most northern 19 communities. They also need marketable skills. 20 Obviously, the Keewatin Community College hopes to 21 play a role in the provision of education and 22 training required in this project. This training 23 will assist Aboriginal and northern people to gain 24 stills to participate in the construction of the 25 dam. 3610 1 It is expected that the Wuskwatim 2 project will provide hundreds of jobs during the 3 construction period, and it is our understanding 4 that the residents of NCN and other Northern 5 Manitobans will be given first priority or 6 consideration for the jobs and training 7 opportunities presented by the Wuskwatim project. 8 This presents a significant opportunity to provide 9 skills training leading to good employment 10 prospects for residents of communities where these 11 prospects are currently limited. 12 The project also presents an 13 opportunity to develop a skills legacy, that is, a 14 cohort of northerners who will strengthen the 15 regional economy of Northern Manitoba with our 16 skills and trade, technical, administrative, 17 managerial and clerical occupations derived 18 through the Wuskwatim project. People with these 19 skills will enrich and build their home 20 communities long after the construction is over. 21 In conclusion, we respect that 22 communities have the right to develop their 23 resources and we respect the agendas of the 24 communities we serve. Once a particular community 25 has identified its own particular developmental 3611 1 path, Keewatin Community College is committed to 2 support this path as part of its institutional 3 mandate. Thank you. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. 5 Sargeant. 6 MR. SARGEANT: Dr. Bos, can you give 7 us an idea of the kinds of courses that you are 8 delivering in First Nations communities? 9 DR. BOS: Yes. We operate right now 10 nine regional centres and the courses that are run 11 every year fluctuate. It fluctuates based on the 12 demand of the communities and the need for the 13 skills. The range of courses keeps broadening. 14 We are in fact currently rotating some of our 15 campus based courses to communities in order to 16 assist communities in having access to some of our 17 core fund for community based courses delivery. 18 The range of courses includes business 19 administration, administrative skills, clerical 20 skills, transition year program, which is really a 21 precursor to university education, adult education 22 which is really remedial education, computer 23 technology, heavy equipment operator, carpenter, 24 plumber, electrical, basic electrical. The range 25 is ever broadening. 3612 1 And because of the communities clear 2 understanding of what they need and our commitment 3 to serve those needs through making changes in our 4 organization, that we can accommodate an 5 increasing array of skill training. Our 6 enrollments in community based education have 7 increased dramatically over the last five years. 8 I don't have the number in front of me, but I know 9 that our campus enrollments are more or less 10 stable, but the growth is in our enrollments in 11 communities where people reside. So it is an 12 important part of our strategic development and I 13 think it is one that responds to the changing 14 nature of demand in the north. 15 MR. SARGEANT: Yesterday we had a 16 number of students sit in for a while who were 17 students enrolled in I think it is the Natural 18 Resources Management Program, which I'm told is a 19 very good program. Is any of that course offered 20 in communities, and would it be possible to offer 21 that course in communities? 22 DR. BOS: Currently it is not offered 23 in communities but, yes, it can be. And we are 24 really only beginning with community based 25 education. I think you are probably aware, but we 3613 1 are going to become a university college very 2 soon. July 1st, it is scheduled to happen. As 3 part of that, a new organizational development 4 community based education will become increasingly 5 important. The goal will be to be a distributed 6 institution where distribution of courses and 7 staff will occur inasmuch as possible throughout 8 the north with the help of technology and with the 9 help of also people from communities being 10 employed by the college but living in their own 11 home communities to perform their work. In that 12 context more and more of our courses will be 13 distributed out from the campus. In that context 14 it is possible that some of those courses could be 15 offered in the community. 16 There is a limitation and that is that 17 some of our programs have a lab dependency, and 18 unless there is an infrastructure in the community 19 to support the lab component of programs it 20 cannot, of course, be offered in the community. 21 But even there, there are some creative solutions 22 possible. Students could come to the college to 23 utilize campus based labs that are not easily 24 replicated in their communities and do the other 25 work in their home centre. 3614 1 Our goal would be with First Nations 2 as much as possible we would incorporate into our 3 curriculum indigenous knowledge and values. And a 4 lot of that learning is best accomplished in a 5 community based setting and not in a campus. So 6 we need to have faculty members on staff who 7 understand how we define curriculum in that 8 context and also are members of the First Nations 9 communities and therefore understand profoundly 10 what it means to incorporate indigenous knowledge 11 to curriculum and how that is delivered in the 12 community based setting. 13 Another important component in our 14 programs that has been suggested to us in a recent 15 forum is that students need to develop traditional 16 knowledge in order to be whole as people and to 17 have a sense of where they have come from so that 18 they know where they are going, and that would 19 involve having a lot of culture camps and having 20 again experiences that are based on the land so 21 that those students have that connection as they 22 become part of the modern world, they know who 23 they are. 24 It is a complex issue, but it is one 25 that is vitally important to the college and the 3615 1 UCN to be effective in the future. 2 MR. SARGEANT: I'm not sure if you 3 were in the room earlier when Mr. Mayer and 4 Councillor Thomas were having a bit of a 5 discussion about the adjustment for people from 6 First Nations communities when they go off 7 elsewhere to go to school. 8 A thought that came to me during that 9 and your comments a moment ago was perhaps in some 10 of those two or three year courses, a first year 11 could be offered in the community and that might 12 serve to bridge some of that cultural gap, and 13 then after that they would be more comfortable 14 coming into The Pas or Thompson to complete the 15 course. 16 DR. BOS: That is certainly part of 17 the plan. But we would like to offer as much as 18 possible even beyond that first year in the 19 community based setting. And we hope to 20 accomplish that by the larger communities in the 21 north who are our regional centres having capacity 22 within their regional centres, having qualified 23 professors and instructors who could deliver 24 programs, not just say in the Nisichawayasihk Cree 25 Nation or Cross Lake or Norway House, but rather 3616 1 that the course could originate there and be 2 delivered in The Pas and Thompson. 3 That is how we see an equalization 4 occur. So that the distribution isn't from The 5 Pas or Thompson outwards, but rather it is a 6 distribution that creates a presence equally 7 everywhere. That is a long term undertaking but 8 that is the goal. 9 MR. SARGEANT: So students from The 10 Pas might go and live in residence at Nelson 11 House? 12 DR. BOS: If there was housing. That 13 is another issues, of course. Housing has been a 14 problem in the First Nations. It is a problem in 15 The Pas as well. The problem here is there isn't 16 enough housing available for married students to 17 come into The Pas. And one way to address that is 18 to be able to bring the courses to where the 19 students are, rather than having the students come 20 where housing is supposed to be or not. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Dr. Bos, you reference 22 among your goals one of having a staffing 23 compliment that is representative of the 24 population of the north. Is this a goal that has 25 been part of the institution for a lengthy period 3617 1 of time or is this something recent? How are you 2 progressing towards that goal and is it -- 3 obviously it is a goal that you feel is reachable. 4 Is it progressing that way? 5 DR. BOS: The goal would be that 6 50 percent, probably 60 percent of our staff would 7 be Aboriginal. And we are board endorsed in 8 employment equity policy, three years ago, and 9 that policy has been guiding us in how we recruit 10 staff. And we make an extraordinary effort to 11 attract Aboriginal staff to all positions where 12 ever possible. And we have had some success and 13 we have had some not so great successes. 14 We have not enough Aboriginal 15 instructors. We have made a number of gains in 16 the non-instructional areas hiring Aboriginal 17 staff. But we haven't had the success with a 18 significant change in the percentage at least of 19 Aboriginal instructors. I think that overall our 20 Aboriginal employment now is about 44 percent at 21 the college. But that includes the employment in 22 regional centres. And, of course, in regional 23 centres there is a much higher percentage of 24 Aboriginal staff. 25 But again, with -- it is going to take 3618 1 time, but we feel that the way to address the 2 faculty development issue is to really grow our 3 own expertise and have our students come back at 4 some point to be instructors and to support 5 northerners in acquiring advanced degrees. Within 6 the university college of the north proposal, 7 there will be a really explicit undertaking to 8 support that. One thought is that it could be a 9 cohort model, whereby there would be a number of 10 people identified who have potential to become 11 professors and then would be supported towards a 12 PhD level through extraordinary funding so that 13 they would choose to come back and work within the 14 new institution. 15 It is a long term proposition, but our 16 commitment as a college to employment equity is 17 irrevocable. It is the only way that this college 18 or the University College of the North can be 19 relevant and can be seen to be owned by the people 20 of the north, because it is really important that 21 the institution be seen to be owned by everyone 22 for whom it has been built. 23 And that means we need to make a 24 significant change in the internal culture of the 25 institution. And the culture comes from people, 3619 1 it doesn't come from policies and regulations. It 2 is the people that create their own culture within 3 the institution, and our institutional culture 4 will change when the people truly reflect the 5 north. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 7 Mr. Nepinak. 8 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 Dr. Bos, as part of the development of the natural 10 resources part of your program in the college, do 11 you see that certification or diploma to become 12 equivalent to be a forester, wildlife biologist or 13 fish biologist as the natural resources 14 institute -- in the south we are somewhat not 15 recognized by the branches of the Provincial 16 Government as a student and we have one student in 17 our community that came out of here and it is very 18 difficult to have him recognized in these branches 19 because of the different time frames I guess. But 20 do you see the college at some point meeting the 21 standards as required by the Province of Manitoba 22 or in this case the corporations? We have 23 difficulty with that when you get back to the 24 communities. 25 DR. BOS: Currently our graduates 3620 1 leave the college with a diploma in Natural 2 Resources Management Technology, and they can gain 3 employment as conservation officers with the 4 Government. It is our hope, though, that over 5 time, time meaning say the next three years, that 6 we could extend the graduation possibility for 7 these students to include a degree, but that will 8 take time. And that is a really important point 9 not to forget. And creating a university college 10 of the north requires resources and development of 11 staff and also development of a good academic 12 plan. There is an initial plan now in place. And 13 within that plan in year three of the new 14 institution's operation, there will be an effort, 15 or at least there will be resources allocated to 16 developing a Bachelor of Science degree and it 17 hasn't been specified what that would be, but my 18 personal thinking is that the best way to move 19 towards a Bachelor of Science degree is to build 20 on the Natural Resources Management Program and 21 make it a two plus two. Two years of a diploma 22 plus two years of university preparation would be 23 a four year degree with maybe an applied degree, 24 Bachelor of Applied Science in Resource 25 Management. 3621 1 I'm just now speaking to you from my 2 own personal thinking about what that might mean, 3 because it is hard to predict something two or 4 three years down the road. But it will depend a 5 lot upon the input that we receive from the people 6 with whom we are working and also working in 7 partnership with the universities in Manitoba who 8 are educating in these fields now. We don't want 9 to duplicate. We would want to provide education 10 that really reflects the north and the needs of 11 the north, and that also is credible academically. 12 So these things will take considerable time. 13 But one of our core programs is 14 Natural Resources Management Technology because we 15 live in a resource rich area. This is the boreal 16 forest. And we need to have programs that give 17 our graduates advanced level skills to make a 18 positive difference in how these resources are 19 managed over the long term. That is a key 20 responsibility for the university of the north. 21 So it is a yes answer, but lots of unknowns as to 22 how we accomplish it. 23 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Avery Kinew. 25 MS. AVERY KINEW: Dr. Bos, glad to 3622 1 hear you say it will take a significant change in 2 the institutional culture to deliver the new 3 University College of the North. We have -- I 4 wonder if you have had an opportunity to read the 5 Environmental Impact Statement or the proposals 6 for the Manitoba Hydro/Nisichawayasihk partnership 7 for the generation station and the transmission 8 line? 9 DR. BOS: If I read the actual 10 proposal? 11 MS. AVERY KINEW: Or this summary 12 or -- 13 DR. BOS: I have seen presentations at 14 various times about it. 15 MS. AVERY KINEW: Then you know that 16 traditional knowledge has played a major role in 17 their estimation in designing it? 18 DR. BOS: I'm aware of that, yes. 19 MS. AVERY KINEW: So it kind of 20 disturbs me that you think that traditional 21 knowledge is, and it is, essential for students to 22 know who they are, but it is absolutely essential 23 to understand the north, don't you think, the 24 boreal forest, the land, the resources? 25 DR. BOS: Yes. 3623 1 MS. AVERY KINEW: And I was thinking 2 that that would take a major change in 3 institutional culture. Are you willing to have 4 Cree elders as instructors, as equals to other 5 faculty? Are you willing to have courses 6 delivered in the Cree language? Are you going to 7 make those kind of changes? 8 DR. BOS: We currently have a college 9 elder at KCC who is employed as an elder, and is 10 part of the executive management team of the 11 college. And we will have a council of elders 12 that will be part of the governing structure of 13 the new university of the north. The council of 14 elders will be formally constituted. 15 In fact, the elders met last week, 16 this week rather, here in The Pas for a symposium 17 for the north, the University College of the 18 North. The elders' council will have formal 19 representation on the governing council of the 20 university. So yes to that. 21 And also there will be a development 22 within the new UCN that will deal with Cree 23 language. There will be a Cree language institute 24 as part of the new organization in order to 25 protect the language from disappearing, because 3624 1 language and culture are obviously one in the 2 same. Language conveys culture and without 3 language there is no culture. 4 MS. AVERY KINEW: We heard from a 5 councillor from Nisichawayasihk, Darcy Linklater, 6 talking about indigenous science. And I would 7 submit that traditional knowledge and indigenous 8 science is more than discussing the culture, it is 9 part of the land, part of the people, and needs a 10 more prominent place. And I'm sure understanding 11 who is involved, and we heard that Chief Primrose 12 was a major mover of the university college, but 13 I'm concerned that academics, with all due 14 respect, might not share the equality that is 15 needed, the equality of the instructors, and that 16 elders have many roles, including deliverers of 17 indigenous science. 18 DR. BOS: I share your concern. But I 19 think being aware of that concern is also an 20 opportunity to not let it happen. And we need to 21 attract the right people into the roles in UCN so 22 that those values become part of the institution 23 and they aren't accommodations, but they become 24 the reality. That is why it is very important to 25 have Aboriginal leadership in the college from the 3625 1 president down. And it is important to have 2 Aboriginal developers for the programs so that 3 these values are embedded, not add ons or 4 accommodations, but they are embedded. 5 That was really the fundamental change 6 that I was referring to. If that change happens 7 then this discussion is not even required, because 8 it just becomes the reality. We would become an 9 Aboriginal institution. 10 The board -- the proposed, the 11 proposed act for the new university college 12 actually speaks clearly to that. The preamble 13 statements are all about reflecting northern 14 realities and respecting Aboriginal people and 15 Aboriginal culture, and having a governance 16 structure where the majority of members will be 17 Aboriginal. 18 MS. AVERY KINEW: I understand that. 19 DR. BOS: There are some really strong 20 structural guarantees built into that, that these 21 changes that we are now speaking about will not be 22 simply accommodations, but they will be mandated 23 by the governing council. 24 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Thomas. 3626 1 MR. THOMAS: I have had occasion to 2 meet Mr. Bos previously in Nisichawayasihk. We 3 have worked together trying to figure out ways to 4 try and solve some of the issues related to the 5 delivery of education for our people. 6 I'm not sure if you are aware, but we 7 do have, and this is because of the question that 8 was asked by the Commissioner Sargeant, that with 9 the ATEC centre, the Atoskiwin Training and 10 Employment Centre, that we are building in 11 Nisichawayasihk, we have provision for student 12 residences for up to 24 students. So I believe 13 that you can incorporate that into your planning. 14 We also have a day care centre 15 included as part of this concept to ensure that 16 the needs of the students can be adequately looked 17 after. And we do also have provision for six 18 residences for instructors. And in addition, 19 we've had, I believe it is under article 7 of the 20 Northern Flood Agreement, the examples of delivery 21 of a resource management course where we have had 22 a number of people go through that program, 23 specifically Mr. Marcel Moody, whose focus was on 24 learning about the fishing aspect of things, and 25 we have Ron D. Spence who worked and graduated 3627 1 from the natural resource officer program, and 2 Gordon Dumas whose focus was on forestry. And we 3 also have my colleague Darcy Linklater, whose 4 focus on the resource management course was on 5 management itself. So we have some people that 6 have some expertise. 7 And we do have an opportunity to make 8 use of these people in these kind of facilities in 9 a venture that works together. The impetus for 10 ATEC, of course, is Wuskwatim, in case we have 11 forgotten, thank you. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Thomas. 13 MR. MAYER: And the question was? 14 MR. THOMAS: Are you aware. 15 DR. BOS: I'm quite aware, yes. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Question asked, 17 question answered. Other questions? 18 MR. THOMAS: Just trying to help with 19 the question posed by the commissioner, the formal 20 question. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: It was an add on. 22 Other questions? Seeing none, we thank you, Dr. 23 Bos, for your time and presence here. 24 MR. MAYER: Before Mr. Grewar does 25 what I know he is now going to do, I think the 3628 1 college should be given the opportunity to amend 2 the obvious typographical error on page one, the 3 construction of the Wuskwatim hydroelectric dam on 4 the Burntwood River as opposed to the Nelson 5 River. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: We will call it a typo. 7 MR. GREWAR: Okay. Noted. We might 8 enter then the presentation to the Manitoba Clean 9 Environment Commission, March 26, 2004, by 10 Keewatin Community College as exhibit OTH-1023. 11 12 (EXHIBIT OTH-1023: Presentation to 13 the Manitoba Clean Environment 14 Commission, March 26, 2004, by 15 Keewatin Community College) 16 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Thomas. 18 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Chairman, at one 19 point in time I promised to file a summary of our 20 consultation with our NCN members, and I would 21 just like to make a few comments in addition to 22 that filing. 23 That community consultation in and of 24 itself is an ongoing process. The document that 25 we are providing highlights efforts with our 3629 1 community members, and there are also home visits. 2 You will note that there were not as many 3 activities between the spring of 2003 up to 4 December 2003. During that time we faced the 5 deaths of several elders in the spring, and when 6 things of that sort occur in our territory, we 7 take a break from things to try and deal with the 8 issue at hand. And at the same time we had 9 ongoing disputes in court about the Chief and 10 Council elections, which were not finally resolved 11 until very recently. I believe that the court 12 decisions were filed reflecting that. 13 In addition, by the summer we were 14 completing the summary of understandings. And 15 also we were involved in this process with the 16 2200 questions or so that were submitted that took 17 a considerable period of time to try and respond 18 to within the time frames that were allowed. 19 In addition we have been trying to 20 answer another 500 or so questions from members. 21 We have answered the Displaced Residents of South 22 Indian Lake and have a Q and A, we call a guide 23 book, which is about to be hand delivered by our 24 community consultants. We are then going to 25 prepare answers to the questions from the January 3630 1 and February small group meetings. The community 2 consultants tried to meet with as many members as 3 possible to explain information and to answer 4 questions. 5 And also we are in the process of 6 having the summary of understandings snapshot and 7 the highlights of the SOU translated. The SOU 8 highlights will also be done in a manner that is 9 similar to the EIS overview which you saw, which 10 is a translation in Cree of the overview itself. 11 Thank you. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Thomas. 13 Mr. Grewar. 14 MR. GREWAR: The March 2004 update 15 summary of consultation with NCN members re: The 16 Wuskwatim Generation Project and the Wuskwatim 17 Transmission Project is entered as MH/NCN 1028. 18 19 (EXHIBIT MH/NCN-1028: March 2004 20 update summary of consultation with 21 NCN members re: The Wuskwatim 22 Generation project and the Wuskwatim 23 Transmission project) 24 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Are there 3631 1 other presenters? Seeing none, this will conclude 2 our hearing here in The Pas. We will reconvene -- 3 we will reconvene in Winnipeg on April 6, at 10:00 4 a.m. There are no further comments or additions, 5 Mr. Grewar? 6 MR. GREWAR: No, Mr. Chairman, that 7 concludes us for today. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I will call 9 upon Elder Sam Dysart. I believe Mr. Dysart is 10 saying sit down. 11 MR. DYSART: Thank you. Before she 12 starts I would like one word. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dysart wants to say 14 one word. 15 MR. DYSART: What you see here, 16 Commissioners, is something that my wife helped me 17 with, so I will not forget and not make a mistake 18 again. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Maybe you would like to 20 sit down and speak in the mike so we will get the 21 benefit of those words. 22 MR. DYSART: I was going to sit down 23 when I started to speak. There are things here 24 that mean a lot in our reserve, but they are 25 things here that you wouldn't understand. Like 3632 1 (Cree word), future, Winnipeg, question mark. 2 Because as I go along I will explain this. Thank 3 you. I may start now. 4 My name is Sam Dysart, an elder from 5 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. I have a message for 6 my people that live in all the Cree Nations, a 7 message to the Chairperson and Commissioners and 8 all who are involved with the project. I would 9 like to thank you. I would like to thank NCN 10 leaders for choosing me to be their elder 11 throughout this process. The future development 12 team have done a great job to make this project a 13 success. I thank them also. I also thank all of 14 the people who have been involved, such as 15 Manitoba Hydro and the consultants. I have made 16 many good friends and I will cherish their 17 friendship forever. 18 I want to thank the people from 19 Opaskwayak Cree Nation for their generosity and 20 hospitality in allowing us to have our CEC hearing 21 in this beautiful building. The many different 22 speakers from other communities, the Mayor from 23 The Pas for their support in the Wuskwatim 24 project. Thank you. 25 Now, Commissioners, my friends, my 3633 1 people, this is what I have to say as an elder. 2 First of all, there is two things, a big fire and 3 a little fire and also a spark I carry in my 4 heart. In Northern Manitoba we are known as elite 5 firefighters, experienced firefighters. When you 6 fight a fire the first thing you do, you go on the 7 outside circle and you put out the fire, but there 8 is always one place that burns forever, (Cree 9 word). Peat moss in your language. This peat 10 moss will burn forever in my heart. And also in 11 the future my children. 12 The big fire nobody would explain, 13 CRD, that fire started when I was a young man. 14 Now I'm a little old man, but I still feel young. 15 This fire was not the same as the little fire. As 16 an elder, that spark I was talking about, most of 17 us elders carry and that is why we have grief. 18 And I don't want to carry that fire, I want my 19 people out there and my team and all of the chiefs 20 and you to help me put out that hurt that is in 21 our hearts. 22 A small fire. The small fire is what 23 I call Wuskwatim as an elder. That fire in 24 Northern Manitoba, every First Nation people and 25 people that are in here jump in the fire either to 3634 1 stir it up or put it out. My friends, Commission, 2 my people, help me put out that fire for the sake 3 of my children so they don't have to walk around 4 it and be hurt the same way as I did. 5 The future, the future, my friend, 6 when I sat down with my wife talking about the 7 future, I told her there are three things in the 8 future. I stopped. That's as far as I'm going. 9 I love my wife, I trust her, but as an elder, 10 there are things that I have to keep until I see 11 them happen. I would be asked by that question, 12 the future, but it would have come what I'm 13 talking about if you are not blind. It is in here 14 in my speech. 15 Winnipeg, question mark. I believe 16 myself as an elder never look at the future. I 17 lived for 27 years to respect people and respect 18 myself. That honesty came from my people. When I 19 was down and out I gave a phone call. There I 20 learned in life I had to do things one day at a 21 time. That is why my friend, my neighbour, 22 Robert, I can't say that I'm going to Winnipeg, 23 for sometimes, right now, I'm doing this only one 24 day at a time. 25 There is also one more thing I would 3635 1 like to explain about the big fire. There are a 2 lot of people that come here. My family from 3 South Indian, my brothers, Granville Lake, an 4 Anderson boy, they are not speaking for 5 themselves, they are speaking for the future 6 fisherman. As I sat there and looked at my 7 cousin, my two cousins, why should a man that has 8 an airplane tell you these things, that he can not 9 make a living? Why does my brother, Willy Dysart 10 from South Indian, he didn't come, would be 11 explaining this to you. Sam Dysart, an elder from 12 Nelson House, I'm not bragging, top fisherman, I 13 could hear that message out there what they were 14 trying to say. Help us put out that big fire. 15 Let's go on with life. That is what I mean, my 16 friend, this compensation, past compensation from 17 the Northern Flood Agreement. 18 Peace pipe. Peace pipe is something 19 that I thought of myself this morning after I 20 dreamed about this until 5:00 o'clock when I went 21 to bed because I was praying not only for myself 22 but for people that are in hospital. I thought 23 about the peace pipe. A peace pipe is something, 24 when all of these fires go out, and that little 25 flame goes out inside the old people in Northern 3636 1 Manitoba in all of the reserves, that in the 2 future that peace pipe will be still smoking. But 3 it will be a good smoke this time I hope for the 4 future generations. And also the future of my 5 people. Thank you. 6 Before I get up and pray with you 7 people, I had a happy -- I'm very happy to be at 8 the hearing in The Pas, for I know the people from 9 The Pas. I have a lot of friends here and I love 10 this building. 11 (CLOSING PRAYER) 12 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Elder 14 Dysart. Before you leave we thank you for these 15 words of wisdom, and we ask the great spirit to 16 keep the fire in your heart. And we thank the 17 people of the Opaskwayak Nation for having us 18 among them here in these last two days. 19 20 (ADJOURNED AT 10:40 A.M.) 21 22 23 24