6660 1 MANITOBA CLEAN ENVIRONMENT COMMISSION 2 3 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT 4 Volume 28 5 6 Including List of Participants 7 8 9 10 Hearing 11 12 Wuskwatim Generation and Transmission Project 13 14 Presiding: 15 Gerard Lecuyer, Chair 16 Kathi Kinew 17 Harvey Nepinak 18 Robert Mayer 19 Terry Sargeant 20 21 Thursday, May 27, 2004 22 Sheraton Hotel 23 161 Donald Street 24 Winnipeg, Manitoba 25 6661 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 Clean Environment Commission: 4 Gerard Lecuyer Chairman 5 Terry Sargeant Member 6 Harvey Nepinak Member 7 Kathi Avery Kinew Member 8 Doug Abra Counsel to Commission 9 Rory Grewar Staff 10 CEC Advisors: 11 Mel Falk 12 Dave Farlinger 13 Jack Scriven 14 Jim Sandison 15 Jean McClellan 16 Brent McLean 17 Kyla Gibson 18 19 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation: 20 Chief Jerry Primrose 21 Elvis Thomas 22 Campbell MacInnes 23 Valerie Matthews Lemieux 24 25 6662 1 2 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 3 4 Manitoba Conservation: 5 Larry Strachan 6 Trent Hreno 7 8 Manitoba Hydro/NCN: 9 Doug Bedford, Counsel 10 Bob Adkins, Counsel 11 Marvin Shaffer 12 Ed Wojczynski 13 Ken Adams 14 Carolyn Wray 15 Ron Mazur 16 Lloyd Kuczek 17 Cam Osler 18 Stuart Davies 19 David Hicks 20 George Rempel 21 David Cormie 22 Alex Fleming 23 Marvin Shaffer 24 Blair McMahon 25 6663 1 LIST OF PARTICIPANTS 2 3 MOSAKAHIKEN CREE NATION 4 Jerry Ron Campbell 5 6 FOX LAKE CREE NATION 7 Chief Robert Wavey 8 Elizabeth Beardy 9 Samson Dick 10 Zack Mayham 11 Mike Lawrenchuk 12 13 MANITOBA BUILDING AND CONSTRUCTION TRADES COUNCIL 14 David Martin 15 16 MANITOBA KEEWATINOOK ININEW OKIMOWIN 17 Grand Chief Sydney Garrioch 18 Mike Anderson 19 20 PUKATAWAGAN FISHERMEN'S ASSOCIATION 21 Peter sinclair 22 23 O-PIPON-NA-PIWIN CREE NATION 24 Headman 25 Chris Baker 6664 1 2 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 3 4 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE 5 6 MCN-1000: Presentation by 7 Mosakahiken Cree Nation, Review of 8 Wuskwatim Transmission Environmental 9 Impact Statement, Submission to the Clean 10 Environment Commission, May 27, 2004 6682 11 12 OTH-1032: Presentation to 13 Manitoba Clean Environment Commission by 14 Chief Robert Wavey, Fox Lake Cree Nation, 15 May 27, 2004 6719 16 17 OTH-1033: CD of Fox Lake 18 overhead projections 6719 19 20 OTH-1034: Presentation by David 21 Martin, Executive Director, Manitoba 22 Building and Construction Trades Council, 23 May 27, 2004 6729 24 25 6665 1 2 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 3 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE 4 5 MH/NCN-1044: Response to the 6 CASIL's question by Mr. Cormie 6794 7 8 MH/NCN-1045: Correspondence 9 on the Augmented Flow Program 6795 10 11 OTH-1035: Presentation submitted by MKO, 12 Dr. Sydney Garrioch, May 27, 2004 6807 13 14 OTH-1O36: Presentation by 15 Peter Sinclair on behalf of the 16 Pukatawagan Fishermen's 17 Association 6825 18 19 OPCN-1001: Presentation of 20 Headman Chris Baker on behalf of 21 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation 6882 22 23 OPCN-1002: Maps presented by 24 Headman Chris Baker on behalf of 25 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation 6882 6666 1 INDEX OF UNDERTAKINGS 2 3 UNDERTAKING NO. PAGE 4 5 MCN-91: Provide map showing FMU 53 and 6 Resource Management Area 6686 7 OTH-92: Produce copy of Fox Lake 8 overhead projections on CD 6719 9 OTH-93: Provide copy of full Northern 10 Residents Employment Committee Annual Report 1991 6739 11 OTH-94: Provide a listing of who 12 belongs to the Trades and Construction Council or the 13 Allied Hydro Council 6739 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6667 1 THURSDAY, MAY 27, 2004 2 Upon commencing at 9:09 a.m. 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning. I 5 welcome you on this beautiful sunny morning. 6 Presumably you've seen that unless you were still 7 sleeping while walking over here. We are ready to 8 begin this morning with the first presentation from 9 the Mosakahiken Cree Nation, MCN. I presume that 10 these people presenting are here. If they are, would 11 you come forward. 12 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Jerry Ron Campbell. 13 Sir, I'm going to ask you to state your name for the 14 record. 15 MR. CAMPBELL: Jerry Campbell, Jerry Ron 16 Campbell. 17 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Campbell, are you aware 18 that in Manitoba, it is an offence to knowingly 19 mislead this Commission? 20 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. 21 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell just 22 the truth in proceedings before this Commission? 23 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, I do. 24 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 25 6668 1 (JERRY RON CAMPBELL: SWORN) 2 3 MR. CAMPBELL: Good morning, everybody. 4 5 (CREE SPOKEN) 6 7 I just told the people whoever 8 understands Cree that the whole reason why I'm here, 9 and my name is Jerry Campbell and I look after -- I'm 10 a Band Councillor back home there in Moose Lake and I 11 look after the resources. It's sort of hard but I am 12 learning my way. I've been there for six years now. 13 I'm just slowly learning everything. 14 So I'll do -- doing a submission to the 15 Clean Environment Commission. 16 Introduction. There's a hand-out that I 17 gave out. I hope every one of you has it. Okay. To 18 make note, there's a map on the fifth page, there's a 19 map there, and I made a little bit of notes there. I 20 think it says "50 acres Land selected." So just try 21 and follow along and bear with me. 22 The Mosakahiken Cree Nation is very close 23 to finalizing the Comprehensive Forebay Agreement 24 which settles outstanding matters with Manitoba Hydro 25 and Manitoba related to the adverse effects of Grand 6669 1 Rapids Project, including flooding of Cedar Lake and 2 Moose Lakes and taking of reserve lands. Two 3 important provisions in the CFA, the establishment of 4 Moose Lake Resource Management Area. I just made a 5 note of that, like RMA, and related joint land and 6 resource use planning and allocation of softwood 7 timber harvesting rights in Forest Management Unit 8 53. The RMA will be established jointly by Manitoba 9 and Mosakahiken Cree Nation with each maintaining 10 equal representation upon approval through a 11 community referendum to be held later in 2004. 12 I'll sort of talk in my own language, 13 whoever listens sort of understands. 14 15 (CREE SPOKEN) 16 17 We call it Manitoba. The mandate of the 18 Board is to participate in the conservation, 19 management and protection of the lands in the RMA. 20 That's Resource Management Area. The main functions 21 are to assess and monitor environmental components 22 such as aquatic and terrestrial biota as well as 23 recommending land use and resource management plans 24 and resource allocations. Included with these 25 functions is the conservation and management of 6670 1 forestry in FMU 53 for economic benefits to 2 Mosakahiken Cree Nation. 3 The Mosakahiken Cree Nation sought 4 funding to participate in Manitoba Clean Environment 5 Commission Hearings as intervenors to assess if the 6 Wuskwatim Transmission Environmental Impact Statement 7 describes and addresses potential impacts on the RMA 8 and FMU 53. Emphasis of the assessment was on the 9 proposed transmission line routing from Herblet Lake 10 Station to Ralls Island Station near The Pas. 11 Environmental impacts on forestry operations, 12 traditional land us and resources because of possible 13 corridor clearing within or near FMU 53 and the RMA, 14 were reviewed as part of the assessment. Other 15 impacts such as increased traffic in the RMA and as 16 well as consultative process with potentially 17 affected Aboriginal populations were reviewed to 18 assess and make the CEC aware that other issues may 19 potentially exist that are not fully addressed in the 20 EIS. 21 22 (CREE SPOKEN) 23 24 Okay. I'm on number 2. Maps showing 25 both the proposed and alternate route between Herblet 6671 1 Lake Station and Rall's Island Station show that 2 either route will be within a few kilometres of the 3 FMU 53 along the northwest corner. Okay, there's a 4 map there. It's by Herblet Lake, there's -- 5 6 (CREE SPOKEN) 7 8 As well, either route would be located to 9 the west of Mawdesley Lake which is also a few 10 kilometres west of the RMA. Finally, either route 11 would be very close to one of our proposed CFA land 12 selections, just south of Cedar Lake -- okay, 13 Clearwater Lake, at the junction of Provincial Roads 14 384 and 287. 15 16 (CREE SPOKEN) 17 18 The road that's leading to Moose Lake and 19 Clearwater Lake. You see the provincial lake and the 20 Clearwater Lake and provincial park, there's that 21 railroad track by map 1. And right on the corner, 22 that's where we selected 50 acres of land to be used 23 for future economic use for our Band members in Moose 24 Lake. 25 The EIS mentions that the proposed 6672 1 transmission line runs through the traditional 2 territory. It appears that the authors are confused, 3 okay, they are confused as to the definition of 4 traditional territory versus resource management 5 areas. The Mosakahiken Cree Nation maintains that 6 much of this same area also belongs to them as 7 traditional territory. 8 Me and my friend here along the way 9 coming from Moose Lake there on the highway, we 10 talked about relationships. We talked about cousins, 11 we talked about grandfathers and let's see how long 12 we can remember -- let's see how long we can remember 13 of who we are related to, see if we're first cousins. 14 But we're first cousins anyway. And we only went to 15 second to third generation. 16 17 (CREE SPOKEN) 18 19 Number 3, observation on the EIS and 20 discussions regarding Aboriginal and Mosakahiken Cree 21 Nation interests. Although the transmission line 22 will not directly cross either the RMA or FMU 53, 23 there may be effects on Mosakahiken Cree interests to 24 its traditional territory, RMA or FMU 53. As such, 25 the review of the EIS, in particular the transmission 6673 1 line, focused on Mosakahiken's interests including 2 economic and traditional pursuits and 3 resources/environmental management, which are 4 inevitably linked. 5 6 (CREE SPOKEN) 7 8 The following are observations and 9 comments on the review on the EIS. 10 3.1, Traditional pursuits it says here. 11 Negative impacts cannot be quantified without giving 12 due regard to changes as a result of new development 13 through the trapline areas and terrestrial and 14 aquatic habitat, adjacent to the right-of-way, ROW. 15 I just put a slash on them. It is stated in the EIS 16 that "most effects are to be either minimal or 17 negligible." Further, the EIS predicts that the 18 transmission lines would not have lasting effects on 19 areas hunting, trapping and fishing. 20 21 (CREE SPOKEN) 22 23 These predictions do not take into 24 account habitats that span a greater area than the 25 transmission line ROW, right-of-way, which may affect 6674 1 adjacent areas of hunting, trapping and fishing, 2 hence, directly impacting Mosakahiken members' 3 traditional pursuits. The potential for habitat 4 fragmentation may impact movement of terrestrial 5 animal populations through the displacement or 6 avoidance of certain critical locations adjacent to 7 the right-of-way. 8 By far, the largest potential for 9 population displacement may result from increased 10 access which is minimally addressed in the EIS 11 through broad statements such as access management. 12 As well, access management measures should include 13 consultation with the proposed Moose Lake Resource 14 Management, RMB, since most ranges and habitats in 15 the area extend into the RMA. 16 Okay, 3.1.1. The Transmission 17 Development Fund is proposed to provide long-term 18 community benefits to Aboriginal communities whose 19 traditional uses may be traversed by the development 20 of the Wuskwatim Transmission Project. The fund only 21 proposes to provide funding to communities whose 22 members are directly affected by the transmission 23 line construction and corridor. Again, the EIS 24 assumes, the EIS assumes that all direct impacts may 25 occur within the corridor, and not in adjacent areas 6675 1 where individuals may be affected from time to time. 2 In addition, the fund appears to be provided to 3 Aboriginal communities but does not provide even a 4 semblance of how the mechanism of compensation 5 distribution would be applied to individuals. 6 Further, long-term benefits should also include loss 7 of income or access to resources on an annual basis, 8 especially since the transmission corridor will 9 always be in place, hence altering the landscape 10 forever regardless of potential mitigation measures 11 to be implemented. 12 13 (CREE SPOKEN) 14 15 I'm just trying to be myself here as I'm 16 up here. I'm not very good at making speeches, hey. 17 So once in a while, I'm going to be talking in my own 18 language, as you know, just to make myself 19 comfortable. 20 21 (CREE SPOKEN) 22 23 When discussing Mosakahiken interests, 24 one must also speak of the spiritual link, spiritual 25 link between the landscape and resources. These 6676 1 words here, which is coming back a little bit 2 previous meetings that we had back home, resource 3 meetings, I have four or five elders back home and 4 they give me a lot of knowledge. They give a lot of 5 words in my own language, talking about spiritual 6 links. 7 8 (CREE SPOKEN) 9 10 One very important component is the 11 visual references of landscapes. The RMA is bound on 12 the east side of Bipoles I and II. If construction 13 of the Wuskwatim transmission line corridor occurs, 14 it will effectively give the perception of isolation 15 to the people of Moose Lake by being bound on both 16 sides of the RMA by the transmission line. 17 The EIS makes no mention of visual 18 impacts on the landscape, okay. It makes no mention 19 of the visual impact on the landscape from 20 construction of the transmission line. The EIS makes 21 reference to the fact that many areas of the 22 transmission line corridor will be in isolated areas. 23 If meaningful consultation was undertaken with local 24 First Nations, these impacts would have been readily 25 discussed and addressed. The EIS seems to make more 6677 1 importance on aesthetic values for recreation rather 2 than the spiritual link between Aboriginal people and 3 the landscape. 4 3.3. Traditional territories. 5 Traditional territories of Aboriginal people are not 6 defined by borders, okay, they are not defined by 7 borders, aboriginal people, but rather historical 8 movement and cyclical patterns around resource use. 9 (CREE SPOKEN) 10 11 We respect one another. 12 13 (CREE SPOKEN) 14 15 Listen to your elders. 16 17 (CREE SPOKEN) 18 19 In the spring time, in the fall, in the 20 winter time. 21 22 (CREE SPOKEN) 23 24 In other words, Aboriginal people 25 travelled many distances to obtain food and other 6678 1 resources where plentiful, which was in keeping with 2 harmony on environmental and the people who relied on 3 the sustenance, the land and the water had to offer. 4 The defining board, okay, of traditional territory 5 was only constrained by the ability of the land and 6 water to sustain terrestrial and aquatic life. 7 The RMAs are areas defined by modern 8 borders drawn on maps by resource officers and land 9 managers, which often contain small portions of 10 traditional territories. The borders are mostly 11 based on the trapline block boundaries, which were 12 developed in the 1940s. The RMAs allow for 13 Aboriginal input on resource management and provide a 14 local sense of stewardship but provide limited input 15 on development and resource use outside RMA borders 16 where traditional pursuits are maintained to this 17 day. 18 These misconceptions between traditional 19 territory and RMAs have become a source of contention 20 among First Nations, since younger generations tend 21 to see defined borders on maps. 22 23 (CREE SPOKEN) 24 25 Overlaps have always formed part of the 6679 1 kinship between First Nations in the form of trade 2 and other beneficial activities since time 3 immemorial. 4 Number 4, comments. The EIS discusses is 5 impacts of corridor clearing and transmission 6 development as minor in overall scope. It appears 7 this kind of linear thinking minimizes physical 8 impacts since it is anticipated that only a small 9 portion of Mosakahiken Cree's traditional territory 10 would be affected. Aboriginal peoples think in terms 11 of the whole rather than the sum of parts in 12 discussing and evaluating environmental impacts. The 13 EIS takes the western scientific approach. It takes 14 the western scientific approach, right, in dealing 15 with water, the people, the corridor development 16 through traditional knowledge. Oh. 17 MS. AVERY KINEW: You missed. 18 MR. CAMPBELL: Yeah, yeah, I know. In 19 dealing with impacts and long-term effects and not 20 fully addressing the interaction between the land, 21 the water, the people and corridor development 22 through traditional knowledge. It appears that all 23 traditional knowledge in the EIS is used as a 24 reference system to the scientific approach but 25 places no importance on how construction will affect 6680 1 local Aboriginal population in non-quantifiable areas 2 such as spirituality and value systems. 3 As mentioned in Section 3.2, no 4 discussion of spiritual impacts is brought forth in 5 the EIS, no discussions, since the EIS seems to place 6 more importance on the western scientific approach. 7 Visual impacts on the landscape from structures, 8 powerlines, communication towers, when undertaking 9 traditional pursuits leaves one with the feeling of 10 invasion in personal space. This kind of impact is 11 not quantifiable, okay, in the western scientific 12 sense, but is just as important an impact to the 13 local population. 14 In spite of claims about the traditional 15 knowledge, there seems to be no recognition in the 16 EIS about the impacts of the proposed transmission 17 line in terms of Aboriginal values such as teaching 18 respect for the environment and animals. 19 Construction of the transmission line will be 20 contrary to the Cree value systems since it will not 21 be possible to teach certain values associated with 22 habitats and conservation because of the landscape 23 being altered in perpetuity, (Cree spoken), forever. 24 Ongoing consultation with local persons, 25 both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal, will be required 6681 1 for continued facilities management such as the 2 right-of-way clearing, right-of-way clearing, as well 3 as environmental monitoring activities. In the case 4 of the latter, Manitoba Hydro should consult with the 5 Moose Lake Resource Management Board on any planned 6 activities and provide documentation on any 7 monitoring required by internal and Provincial 8 requests. This will be important especially if 9 Manitoba Hydro plans to conduct vegetation management 10 through the use of herbicides. 11 The Mosakahiken Cree Nation would insist 12 on consultation with Moose Lake Resource Management 13 Board and the provision of any monitoring information 14 at the very least. 15 And there is a map there and it shows on 16 map 1 we have a selected area of 50 acres around that 17 for the future benefit of our community economically. 18 19 (CREE SPOKEN) 20 21 Thank you very much. I hope that sort of 22 -- is that a good report? 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 24 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we just 25 might enter as Exhibit number MCN-1000, the 6682 1 presentation by Mosakahiken Cree Nation. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 3 4 (EXHIBIT MCN-1000: Presentation by 5 Mosakahiken Cree Nation, Review of 6 Wuskwatim Transmission Environmental 7 Impact Statement, Submission to the Clean 8 Environment Commission, May 27, 2004) 9 10 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Chairman, if I may. 11 Councillor Jerry from Mosakahiken. 12 13 (CREE SPOKEN) 14 15 MR. CAMPBELL: On behalf of Mosakahiken 16 Cree Nation, we're really honoured to be here to do 17 this presentation and that we do support NCN in 18 whatever sort of project that you guys are doing. 19 But back home there, sort of reflecting 20 back in the early seventies, early sixties, there's 21 been a lot of damage has been done regarding the 22 Grand Rapids project on our lands. Our reserve lands 23 were taken. That's how I sort of mentioned it. 24 I just wanted to sort of mention that 25 there should be programs available and whoever is 6683 1 affected with this project that you guys are doing. 2 Because that's how we're sort of having a hard time 3 trying to find programs but Hydro is working with us 4 back home. They have consultants and we phone them 5 and we tell them the problems and they do work with 6 us, slowly. But before it was sort of like, well, 7 you're on your own, you had your compensation 8 already. But it wasn't. Like our livelihoods will 9 always be there. 10 But in respect, we do support this 11 program about the Wuskwatim you guys are doing. And 12 that's what I'm telling the public here and I'm 13 telling to NCN. Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Just getting 15 back to the map you have at the end here, Mr. 16 Campbell. In the inset map in the corner, you have a 17 large square in that. Is that intended to represent 18 the Resource Management Area of MCN or is this the 19 entire map? This square represents this broader map 20 here? 21 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. Maybe I should ask 22 my helper here, Sean. I'm not quite sure if that's 23 the area there of the Resource Management but it's 24 something around that size, though. But maybe I 25 should say we should send them a proper map to this, 6684 1 Sean? That's Sean, our consultant from Hobb's & 2 Associates. Sean, can you please stand up, please. 3 MR. KEATING: This is taken from the EIS, 4 TetrES Consultants as it indicates at the bottom of 5 the page, and I understand that's the inset of the 6 area, the area where the transmission line will be. 7 MR. ABRA: I wonder if we can have the 8 name of the gentleman that just spoke, please. 9 What's your name, sir? 10 MR. KEATING: Sean Keating. 11 MR. ABRA: K-e-a-t-i-n-g? 12 MR. KEATING: Yeah. 13 MR. ABRA: Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Personally, I didn't hear 15 any of that that was spoken. My colleague heard 16 better than I did and I understand from what he's 17 telling me that that square in the inset map actually 18 represents the broader map that is here showing where 19 it's placed in Manitoba per se. 20 The proposed transmission line from 21 Herblet Lake to Rall's Island, does that run through 22 your Resource Management Area? 23 MR. CAMPBELL: As I said on the report 24 that I gave for this hearing, I believe it says there 25 like it's around that area, the transmission line, 6685 1 the transmission line. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes? 3 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. It's around that 4 area, FMU 53. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Just north of your -- 6 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, just north. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: And you have already some 8 lines, transmission lines that pass just to the 9 southeast of your -- 10 MR. CAMPBELL: We have Hydro lines, yeah, 11 along the route. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: So is that what you're 13 referring to when you're referring to the fact that 14 you're sort of enclosed between two sets of Hydro 15 lines? 16 MR. CAMPBELL: Can you be more -- 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Were you referring to your 18 Management Area, your Resource Management Area, or to 19 your community area when you were saying that you 20 were sort of enclosed or set between two sets of 21 Hydro lines? 22 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. I was referring to 23 Resource Management Area. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: I see. 25 MR. CAMPBELL: And that's the map we're 6686 1 going to be providing to the Commission I believe. 2 That's what we'll do maybe today. 3 4 (UNDERTAKING MCN-91: Provide map showing FMU 53 and 5 Resource Management Area) 6 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Have you had discussions 8 with Manitoba Hydro on the proposed transmission 9 corridor? 10 MR. CAMPBELL: No, we haven't, no. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: You haven't at this time? 12 MR. CAMPBELL: No. Well, I don't 13 believe -- I don't think the project isn't going 14 anywhere until the hearings are heard, right, and 15 there's no contractors set yet? 16 THE CHAIRMAN: No. 17 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. But I believe there 18 was a hearing in The Pas that was at Kikiwak Inn, and 19 they were sort of talking about the transmission line 20 back a year ago I believe or a year and a half ago. 21 We were talking about transmission line and I 22 questioned about that of what they were going to do 23 about the bush that they were going to be clearing, 24 the corridor. That's the only time we talked to 25 whoever was presenting at that time. 6687 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it your view that the 2 corridor should be deviated to or do you object to 3 where the corridor is currently sited? 4 MR. CAMPBELL: Are you saying that I 5 don't -- are you saying that I don't go along with 6 it? 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Would it be MCN's 8 objective or desire that this corridor would deviate 9 to avoid your Resource Management Areas? Is that 10 what I'm hearing you say? Or are you saying that you 11 need simply more consultation? 12 MR. CAMPBELL: We need more consultation 13 about the transmission line within that area of our 14 Resource Management Area. I wish I had a map here. 15 Sorry about any confusion here but I wish I had a map 16 here where we can show you our FMU 53 plus our 17 Resource Management Area. But what I'm saying, what 18 we're saying there on behalf of Mosakahiken Cree, if 19 there is ever going to be a transmission line there, 20 like for us to be included, like whoever is going to 21 have the contract so we can create employment, that's 22 what I'm saying. 23 But also in my statement here, 24 traditional, traditionally, like what I'm saying 25 there like long time ago, people used to go in 6688 1 different areas, okay, different areas traditionally. 2 Like they didn't stay in one place. And back home 3 there are elders were saying that traditionally, it's 4 our land around that area where that transmission 5 line on the east -- not east, on the west side of map 6 1 and 2 and 3. Map 1, 2 and 3 based on the map there 7 traditionally. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: I understand Mr. Bedford 9 has a map that would help us understand more clearly 10 where everything is situated and maybe you wanted to 11 use that map? 12 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. Let's see. 13 14 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 15 16 THE CHAIRMAN: I guess the reporter will 17 indicate that there was a period of confusion but we 18 will get some clarification sometime, maybe not right 19 now but sometime. Mr. Mayer. 20 MR. MAYER: Mr. Campbell, we've been told 21 that the reason the transmission line runs the way it 22 does from the point at which it hits the Hudson Bay 23 rail line into Rall's Island is that firstly they ran 24 it down the rail line in order to cause as little 25 disruption as possible because there's already a 6689 1 corridor there. 2 Secondly, they advised that they deviated 3 from the rail line, and I think my memory is correct, 4 because that was at the request of Cormorant who had 5 some concerns about going right down the rail line 6 and that's why you see the deviation from the rail 7 line. So we had heard about the consultation that 8 Manitoba Hydro had with Cormorant and how Cormorant 9 had affected the, to some extent, the preferred 10 route. 11 But are you telling us that you had no 12 such consultations with Manitoba Hydro or their 13 consultants? 14 MR. CAMPBELL: Well, what I am saying is 15 a few months back, I met with this lady at one of the 16 hearings and she came and asked me how are you guys 17 affected with the transmission line? And I told her 18 like we have an FMU 53 and we have our Resource 19 Management Area and it's close around that area. But 20 we came to a conclusion but it didn't really hit the 21 RMA, the Resource Management. But what I had told 22 her was traditionally, traditionally, right, it used 23 to be our land. People didn't used to stay on one 24 place long time ago. People moved around where there 25 was food, okay. That's what I'm saying. 6690 1 MR. MAYER: I understand that, sir; 2 however, there is already a corridor there with the 3 railroad and when you mentioned that you are also 4 bounded by Bipole I and II, in fact, sir, if my 5 geography is correct, the other corridor that is 6 there is Provincial Trunk Highway number 6 which is 7 to the west of Bipole I and II. So you already again 8 have yet another corridor there unrelated to the 9 Hydro line. 10 So recognizing your traditional 11 territory, and I certainly understand what you say 12 when people were pursuing the traditional pursuits of 13 hunting, trapping and sustenance living off the land, 14 one went where the game was or where the fish were or 15 where the fur was in order to find it and recognize 16 that there were no defined boundaries. 17 Now, I'm not sure what you're suggesting 18 to the Commission we ought to do about the fact that 19 we now have those boundaries? 20 MR. CAMPBELL: What do you mean like not 21 have the boundaries? 22 MR. MAYER: Well, I'm saying we have now 23 found ourselves in a situation where we now have 24 boundaries. 25 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes. 6691 1 MR. MAYER: And I am recognizing that 2 fact in assuming that we don't want to tear up either 3 the road or the railroad. What are you suggesting in 4 terms of that route? I kind of thought it was a 5 decent idea that they would follow already existing 6 corridors rather than going through other portions of 7 the forest or through more sensitive areas. I'm 8 really looking for your opinion on that. 9 MR. CAMPBELL: Like the transmission 10 line? Okay. Well, I guess with the corridor, like 11 once it happens, once they have the corridor and once 12 they have the transmission line, there is not much 13 that we can do, right. But all I'm saying was to 14 consult with Mosakahiken Cree, with Moose Lake, hey. 15 Say, for an example, you guys are going 16 to give out a contract, okay, we want some of our 17 members to be in cutting the area, too, okay. But 18 that's what I'm saying. At least we are consulted 19 because in the future, we're going to have a Resource 20 Management Board, right. And traditionally, based on 21 what the elders say, it does affect us. It does 22 affect us. We see it's there, it does affect us when 23 the transmission line is there. Even though it is 24 really needed for more power or whatever. But 25 traditionally, it does, officially it does affect the 6692 1 Cree Nation, Aboriginal people officially. 2 MR. MAYER: I understand your submission 3 and I understand what you're saying about both the 4 visual and the spiritual effect that the imposition 5 of a transmission line through your traditional 6 territory has. I suppose what I'm asking you is do 7 you have any suggestion as to an alternative? 8 MR. CAMPBELL: Alternative, okay. 9 MR. MAYER: I understand your comment 10 about employment and we have heard from Hydro that it 11 is their intention to employ local people as much as 12 possible in all aspects of both these projects. 13 MR. CAMPBELL: I guess I'll say is we 14 have a local radio station back home in Moose Lake. 15 Maybe what they should do is fax the contractor's 16 name of how many employment he needs, labourers, and 17 maybe if that contractor leaves that name and a 18 number, maybe it will be much easier for one of our 19 Band members to get up and pick up a phone and dial 20 and send in applications to our community so we can 21 apply. That's what I suggest that whoever is going 22 to be looking after the contract. 23 MR. MAYER: I have a suspicion that that 24 was what Councillor Thomas will probably want to talk 25 to you about a little later after we leave. But 6693 1 thank you very much. I think I understand your 2 position. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: I think I do too and I 4 think I hear you say, well, okay, we're supporting 5 this project and basically we want to be involved in 6 discussions in terms of the portion of the 7 transmission line that passes nearest to us and we 8 want to be involved on any opportunities that might 9 present themselves as a result of that construction 10 of that line; am I correct? 11 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Nepinak. 13 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. Just a bit of a 14 clarification on the RMAs. I look forward to your 15 mapping. I was looking at what you gave us here and, 16 you know, the community itself and the claimed area. 17 So I guess that will be coming. 18 At the last part of your presentation, 19 you said that, you know, Mosakahiken Cree Nation 20 would insist on consultation with the Moose Lake 21 Management Board and the provision of any monitoring 22 information at the very least. Could you describe 23 the Board a bit for us? Is it totally a First 24 Nations? Or just a little bit of clarification. 25 MR. CAMPBELL: Okay. What a Board is, 6694 1 based on our CFA Agreement, it's going to be four 2 members from the province. But out of those four 3 members, one of them is going to be from the 4 community side, mayor and council side. We are 5 adjacent with the Metis side on the reserve. We're 6 adjacent, like, we're just living next door to one 7 another. 8 9 (CREE SPOKEN) 10 11 So there will be one person there that's 12 going to represent on behalf of the province on the 13 Board. And on our side, there's going to be four 14 members, four members plus a chairman, so that's 15 five. So we're always going to have a unanimous 16 decision where we're always going to win. Just 17 kidding. It's a joke. It's only a joke. 18 Well that is going to be the Board and 19 every month they're going to have a meeting, a 20 monthly meeting, a Resource Management meeting. And 21 that's what a Board is. That's the intent of it for 22 the CFA agreement. 23 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. I think that's 24 a very good concept. It's not in existence yet. 25 It's going to be developed. When you say future, 6695 1 it's not in existence, right? It's going to be 2 developed? 3 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, it's going to be 4 developed. It's developed -- I think we're talking 5 about it now. Like we've been talking about it for 6 the past five years since '98. For the past five 7 years since 1998, we've been talking about it and 8 trying to get a Resource Management Board. And we're 9 slowly, like we're learning. 10 But what I think, too, is I think our 11 members should be more trained of what a board is and 12 I think there's some pre-training there before any 13 agreement is signed. 14 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions? Mr. 16 Bedford? 17 MR. BEDFORD: Good morning, Mr. Campbell, 18 Mr. Keating, we haven't met. My name is Doug Bedford 19 and I work for Manitoba Hydro. Rather than ask you 20 any questions, I would like to, on behalf of Manitoba 21 Hydro and our partner, NCN, reiterate the invitation 22 that I know Mr. Thomas made to you when we had a 23 little confusion up at the front. And I'd encourage 24 you, as soon as you are finished here, to arrange, 25 with either one of the Manitoba Hydro consultants or 6696 1 employees or directly with Mr. Thomas, a meeting and 2 certainly with both of you in attendance or whoever 3 else you may want to come to the meeting. 4 It's clear to me that you have a lot of 5 questions and concerns that have not yet been 6 answered. I know, Mr. Campbell, that some letters 7 were sent to you and one of the letters answered some 8 questions that you had a couple of years ago about 9 the project. But I repeat, it's clear to me that you 10 have a lot of questions and time would be usefully 11 spent I think with our people listening more to you 12 and providing you with complete answers to all of 13 your questions. 14 Several of the things I would encourage 15 you to ask our employees and consultants when you 16 meet with them is your concerns about transmission 17 right-of-ways. I am aware, and it's apparent to me 18 that you're not, that people did look at effects 19 beyond the actual transmission right-of-ways on 20 animals and vegetation. There is discussion of that 21 in the EIS. But when I listened to your 22 presentation, I thought that you had probably missed 23 that. And I would encourage you to ask them how that 24 was taken into account. 25 You raised concerns about compensation 6697 1 and I am aware that compensation is provided to 2 individual trappers whose hunting and trapping -- 3 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, I am aware of that, 4 yeah. 5 MR. BEDFORD: -- is affected. So I would 6 encourage you again to ask questions on that subject 7 when you meet with them. 8 I am aware that there is a volume in the 9 EIS that deals with effects on peoples and culture. 10 And again, it was apparent to me that you probably 11 had missed that in whatever review you did of the 12 EIS. So I'd encourage you to ask them questions 13 about that as well. 14 But unlike what I have done previously 15 here, I don't really have any questions of you. I'd 16 encourage you to ask more questions of us at that 17 sort of meeting. Thank you both. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Campbell, 19 you had been invited to ask all the questions. Don't 20 miss that opportunity. 21 MR. CAMPBELL: We thank you. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Dysart, do you have a 23 question? 24 MR. S. DYSART: Yes, sir. Thank you. My 25 name is Sam Dysart, Elder from Nelson House. I want 6698 1 to ask this young man a few questions in Cree. Then 2 if he says yes to me, then I will say it in English. 3 4 (CREE SPOKEN) 5 6 Now I will say this in English. 7 8 (CREE SPOKEN) 9 10 MR. CAMPBELL: Um-hum, yeah. 11 MR. S. DYSART: I asked the young man 12 about traditional life. In tradition, what he was 13 talking about, I followed that. And in respect to 14 what he was talking about, my sister lives in Moose 15 Lake. And I know my sister had 18 children. She's 16 got a lot of grandchildren, maybe that's one of them. 17 And I respect him what he said about the elders. 18 In times, their area is very very rich in 19 trapping. When a man couldn't make a living or 20 another guy, they would take that guy and invite him 21 to trap in his area. That's respect for an elder. 22 When he travels by boat heading the other way, he 23 respects that land when he gets to the other area. 24 Keeps his camp clean, makes sure that he doesn't 25 start a forest fire. When he travels on the highway, 6699 1 either up north or down south, he respects that. 2 And that's one thing we should learn from 3 this young fella is respect for other communities and 4 try and help them. For I have learned something 5 today, that they try and help each other. 6 And I come here in front to thank him and 7 remind you that there's one young man that's trying 8 to help us here and help the project at the same time 9 so we can help each other if we talk and share 10 everything that we have. Thank you. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I keep finding 12 that this is an opportunity for Aboriginal people of 13 Manitoba to meet together which also gives them a 14 chance to get to know one another better, even gives 15 a chance for cousins from various locations to meet 16 their cousins, grandfathers to meet their 17 grandchildren, it's a family gathering. And by the 18 time these hearings get to be finished, we'll all 19 better appreciate the traditional ways of life and 20 we'll all respect them to a larger degree. Ekosi. 21 Were there other questions? 22 MR. CAMPBELL: I was going to say I hope 23 that was a joke. 24 25 (CREE SPOKEN) 6700 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, you have questions? 2 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 3 My name is William Osborne from Pimicikamak. And 4 good morning, Commissioners and to everybody. 5 You said something about traditional 6 knowledge. The elders said this is our land. Can 7 you elaborate a little bit more exactly what they 8 meant by that? 9 MR. CAMPBELL: (Cree spoken) What I meant 10 by that when I said (Cree spoken) this is our land 11 (Cree spoken) altogether as a whole. (Cree spoken) 12 in our own community. That's not where we came from 13 (Cree spoken). Where we came from is up north more, 14 hey, up north more. There I don't know where they 15 came from. (Cree spoken). They used to be nomadic. 16 Wherever the food was, that's where they went. 17 That's where we're stuck. (Cree spoken) us people. 18 What is the tradition? What is our land? That's 19 where I stand, that traditional land. (Cree spoken). 20 Do you understand? 21 MR. OSBORNE: So when the elders said our 22 land, they didn't specifically refer to Resource 23 Management Area as defined by the Provincial 24 Government and any other related governments but they 25 more or less refer to the Proposed Transmission Line 6701 1 areas as well. Would you agree? 2 MR. CAMPBELL: (Cree spoken) 3 MR. OSBORNE: When the elders said this 4 is our land, they did not only look at the Proposed 5 Transmission Lines area or the Resource Management 6 Area, would you agree? 7 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, I do. 8 MR. OSBORNE: Would you agree as well 9 that the elders said much but very little when they 10 referred to our land, that this is spiritual and 11 sacred site that we occupy. Would you agree? 12 MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, I do. 13 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you. 14 MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Grewar? 16 MR. GREWAR: Yes, Mr. Chairman. If you 17 are moving on at this point, we do have to do a very 18 brief set-up of the projecter for the Fox Lake Cree 19 Nation. But we would like to proceed before the 20 break to hear from Fox Lake Cree Nation because of 21 some time constraints they have. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. We thank you, Mr. 23 Campbell, for your presentation and appreciate 24 sharing with us your concerns and interests in the 25 future. 6702 1 MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: So we have just a minute 3 here to set something up, Mr. Grewar? 4 MR. GREWAR: Yes. Mr. Chairman, I'd like 5 to call forward Chief Robert Wavey on behalf of the 6 Fox Lake Cree Nation and we'll set up the projector 7 and the laptop and then we'll be ready to go before 8 the break. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Ladies and gentlemen, 10 please sit so that we may proceed. I'd like the room 11 to come to order, please. 12 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Mr. 13 Grewar will proceed with the swearing in. 14 MR. GREWAR: Thank you. If I could ask 15 you each to say your name for the record. 16 MS. BEARDY: Elizabeth Beardy. 17 MS. ANDERSON: Jessie Anderson. 18 MR. MAYHAM: I'm Zack Mayham. 19 CHIEF WAVEY: Robert Wavey. 20 MR. DICK: Samson Dick. 21 MR. LAWRENCHUK: Michael Lawrenchuk. 22 MR. GREWAR: I'll ask you together, are 23 you aware that in Manitoba, it is an offence to 24 knowingly mislead this Commission? 25 FOX LAKE: Yes. 6703 1 MR. GREWAR: Okay. Having answered in 2 the affirmative then, do you all promise to tell just 3 the truth before this Commission? 4 FOX LAKE: Yes. 5 MR. GREWAR: Thank you all. 6 7 (ELIZABETH BEARDY: SWORN) 8 (JESSIE ANDERSON: SWORN) 9 (ZACK MAYHAM: SWORN) 10 (ROBERT WAVEY: SWORN) 11 (SAMSON DICK: SWORN) 12 (MIKE LAWRENCHUK: SWORN) 13 14 THE CHAIRMAN: You may begin, Chief 15 Wavey. 16 CHIEF WAVEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 17 Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen, "stakeholders", 18 good morning. I'm not going to go into any technical 19 detail or give any specific examples of what I'm 20 going to be speaking about or to. So these are 21 basically Fox Lake's perspectives and some of our 22 history, I suppose some of the reasons we believe we 23 should be here and I'll take it from there. I'll be 24 speaking in English only and I apologize to those 25 people who don't understand me but I understand we 6704 1 have time constraints so I'll try and be as brief as 2 I can. Ekosi. 3 I am here today to speak about the Fox 4 Lake people's experiences with hydroelectric 5 development as a contribution to these discussions on 6 the Wuskwatim project. 7 Fox Lake is arguably the First Nation 8 that has been most affected by Hydro development in 9 Northern Manitoba. Manitoba's three largest Hydro 10 dams, which provide over 70 per cent of Hydro power 11 in this province, are all located within Fox Lake's 12 traditional territory. 13 Beginning in the early 1960s with the 14 construction of Kettle Rapids followed by the 15 construction of Long Spruce in the 1970s, and the 16 completion of Limestone in 1992, the Fox Lake people 17 have survived three decades of Hydro development. 18 Two more potential sites, Gull Rapids and 19 Conawapa will also be located in Fox Lake's 20 traditional territory. When these two projects are 21 completed, five dams and potentially 5,400 megawatts 22 of hydroelectric capacity will have been developed in 23 an approximately 100 kilometre stretch within Fox 24 Lake's traditional territory. 25 Despite the fact that the dams were built 6705 1 at the heart of our traditional territory, our Cree 2 Nation community and the damages we suffered as a 3 consequence remained overlooked for decades. 4 Prior to the development of the Kettle 5 Rapids Hydro project, the Fox Lake community at 6 Gillam was healthy and self-reliant. In the 1940s 7 and '50s, there were efforts to establish a reserve 8 at Gillam. These efforts were abandoned when our 9 area was targeted for Hydro development. 10 It is difficult to talk about the 11 atrocities and degradation thrust upon the Fox Lake 12 people. It brings back memories of the losses and 13 damages, the pain and grief that the Fox Lake people 14 endured. Our community was taken away from us and 15 redeveloped the needs of the Hydro workforce. 16 In Gillam, we were classified as 17 squatters. Our homes were destroyed and we were 18 relocated into a slum to live in houses substandard 19 to those built for the construction workforce. 20 Our new homes in the middle of this 21 modern Hydro community had no indoor plumbing. 22 Instead, we drew water from a well and used 23 outhouses. Most ironic of all, we had no electrical 24 service even though we lived at the site of the then 25 largest Hydro generating station in Manitoba. 6706 1 I will not go into the atrocities I spoke 2 of earlier out of respect for the living and the 3 dead. It is only important that you understand that 4 we suffered horribly and were basically abandoned by 5 governments to fend for ourselves the best way we 6 knew how. 7 Profound culture shock is the only way I 8 can think of to describe the effects 6,000 9 construction workers had descending upon and taking 10 over our community of 300. 11 Most of the First Nations affected by 12 Hydro development were impacted by changing water 13 levels. We weren't just flooded out, we were crowded 14 out of our own community to make way for Hydro's new 15 northern base of operations and swamped by the influx 16 of workers. 17 The impact was made worse because of the 18 lack of a reserve at Gillam. Other affected First 19 Nation had reserve lands that gave them some 20 protection from the influx of newcomers. The Fox 21 Lake people didn't even have that small level of 22 protection or control over their own community. 23 In addition to the profound social and 24 cultural impacts Hydro development had upon the Fox 25 Lake community, there were damages done to the 6707 1 environment as a result of the flooding. 2 Almost overnight after the closing of the 3 gates of the completed Kettle Rapids dam, the waters 4 rose 100 feet, flooding forever 54,000 acres of Fox 5 Lake's prime traditional resource harvesting area. 6 Most of Fox Lake's traditional resource harvesting 7 area lies under what is now called Stephens Lake, the 8 Kettle Generation Station forebay. 9 For these reasons, we make the claim that 10 Fox Lake people have been more profoundly impacted by 11 Hydro than any other community in Northern Manitoba. 12 Though we were initially a member of the 13 Northern Flood Committee, Fox Lake is not a signatory 14 to the Northern Flood Agreement. Consequently, we 15 have fought for years to secure recognition of the 16 damages done to our land and to our community. Our 17 struggles eventually resulted in the creation of a 18 dialogue with both Manitoba Hydro and the Province of 19 Manitoba to address our grievances. 20 Now, after years of negotiation, Fox Lake 21 Cree Nation is nearing conclusion of an Impact 22 Settlement Agreement with Manitoba Hydro and the 23 Province of Manitoba. 24 At the same time that we are trying to 25 bring closure to Hydro issues of the past, we have 6708 1 begun through the Split Lake/Manitoba Hydro Agreement 2 in principle exploring a potential partnership 3 agreement on the proposed Gull Rapids project, 4 similar to the NCN agreement on Wuskwatim. 5 Fox Lake's goal in the negotiations is to 6 ensure that the current and future membership of the 7 Fox Lake Cree Nation receive the maximum possible 8 benefit with a minimum possible impact from the 9 project. As a result, we do not see our role as 10 advocating for the Gull Rapids project or any other 11 Hydro project. Our role is to explore this 12 opportunity and to provide our membership with the 13 information they need to make a decision. 14 We wanted to make a submission to these 15 hearings because our history with Hydro gives Fox 16 Lake a unique perspective on the subject. Fox Lake 17 supports the right of any First Nation to seek 18 justice for past grievances. We are committed to 19 seeing that Hydro, Manitoba and Canada are held 20 accountable for the environmental and social impacts 21 that were inflicted on all of us by past development. 22 However, we cannot support opposition of future 23 development as a leverage to revisit the settlement 24 of impacts from past projects. 25 Fox Lake supports the Nisichawayasihk 6709 1 people's right to determine for themselves whether 2 this project is beneficial to their community. To 3 not consider the potential opportunities involved in 4 Hydro development would be doing a disservice to 5 their present and future generations. And it is 6 their decision. 7 The membership of NCN will consider this 8 matter and vote in a referendum later this year. And 9 that is where their decision must be made. We 10 recognize the right of people to raise issues before 11 this body but we urge this Commission to respect the 12 autonomy and sovereignty of the NCN. 13 It is important to remember the lessons 14 that have been learned from previous Hydro projects. 15 As a society, we know much more now about short-term 16 and long-term impacts. And because of the lessons 17 learned, environmental impacts are now under much 18 greater scrutiny. The mistakes of the past must 19 never be repeated. And for that, we do rely on the 20 wisdom and discretion of this body and we urge you to 21 take into account all relevant factors about the 22 impacts of this proposal and the measures proposed to 23 address those impacts. 24 As is evident all over the north, Hydro 25 development can be very destructive. In effect, the 6710 1 flooding associated with a Hydro dam turns a 2 naturally flowing river or a lake into a manmade 3 reservoir. Forests are fragmented by transmission 4 lines, exploration camps, cut lines, burrow pits and 5 roads. Traditional travel routes are blocked or made 6 unsafe. Fish and animal movements are disrupted and 7 changed significantly. Productive hunting and 8 fishing areas are lost to the hunter or fisher. 9 The significance of all these changes 10 shows the need to focus on the nature of the 11 ecosystem that emerges from Hydro development. Any 12 alteration to the ecosystem is an alteration of the 13 blueprint of traditional knowledge and pursuits, no 14 matter how minor or irrelevant the alteration may 15 seem to be. When the environment is altered in any 16 way, there is a natural response by the landscape and 17 the wildlife. This natural response then has to be 18 relearned, if possible, by the hunters, fishers and 19 trappers of the area. Fox Lake members continue to 20 experience the consequences of development that paid 21 no attention to the environment. 22 Fox Lake people are just now learning how 23 to exist in the environment left behind by Kettle, 24 Long Spruce and Limestone. That must never happen 25 again. It is time for a new approach to any future 6711 1 projects. 2 Future development must be accompanied by 3 investment into the north's environment. Such 4 investment could serve to offset the environmental 5 damage from future Hydro projects, rehabilitate areas 6 previously affected by development and preserve other 7 lands. 8 Aboriginal traditional knowledge and 9 approaches to environmental protection must be 10 applied to ensure that future development does not 11 destroy the land and waters that have sustained us 12 for thousands of years. Manitoba Hydro, Province of 13 Manitoba and Canada need to partner with First 14 Nations communities in implementing a policy of 15 investment into the northern environment. The 16 affected lands and waters remain after Hydro 17 construction must no longer be seen or viewed as an 18 inevitable byproduct of development. These lands and 19 waters are our traditional territories and must 20 return to being a productive part of the land base of 21 our economies. 22 For this to happen, there must be a 23 serious effort to invest in the restoration and 24 rehabilitation of the physical environment that is 25 left in the wake of Hydro development. For too long 6712 1 now, the north's resources have been taken away by 2 others, gradually eroding the ability of the land to 3 sustain the people who have lived in the area for 4 thousands of years. A policy of reinvestment in the 5 environment would not only begin to reverse this 6 trend but it has the potential to provide economic 7 benefits for the communities of the north. 8 Investment into the post Hydro project 9 environment could result in sustaining the local 10 traditional economies and establishing new 11 conventional outdoor recreation, adventure and 12 tourism-based business operations. Ultimately, for 13 any resource development to be successful for our 14 communities, it must not undermine our traditional 15 economy nor the environment upon which it is based. 16 Our rights to hunt, fish and trap are protected under 17 our Treaty and Aboriginal rights and the Constitution 18 of Canada. However, what good are those rights if 19 the land is destroyed and the rivers are dead? 20 Historically, our traditional economy and 21 the environment have been disregarded in the name of 22 progress, but this cannot be allowed to happen again. 23 24 There have to be mitigation and compensation measures 25 put in place both for the individual and the 6713 1 community. However, this is much more than just 2 simply writing somebody a cheque for the damages. 3 This is about real investment both in the new 4 environment that will emerge after Hydro construction 5 and in the people who will have to learn to live 6 there. 7 To conclude my presentation, the Fox Lake 8 people have a tremendous amount of experience with 9 the impacts of Hydro development. Our experiences 10 can serve to inform any future development that takes 11 place in this province. 12 With any potential future Hydro project, 13 it is of the utmost importance that we learn from the 14 past. 15 We know the impacts construction can have 16 upon people when an area is developed for 17 hydroelectricity. Social impacts must be anticipated 18 and countered with effective mitigation measures and 19 social supports. 20 With regard to environmental impacts, it 21 is no longer acceptable to just write a cheque to 22 compensate the people for the damages done to their 23 lands and waters. There must be significant and 24 long-term investment toward the planning and 25 management of the new environment that will be 6714 1 created by any Hydro project. Such an approach has 2 the potential to serve both environmental protection 3 and community development. 4 And finally, we once more urge the 5 Commission to respect the autonomy and sovereignty of 6 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. The people of the 7 Nisichawayasihk Cree have the opportunity to assess 8 the merits of the agreement proposed with Manitoba 9 Hydro. NCN will decide for itself, through 10 referendum, if the Wuskwatim proposal adequately 11 addresses the social, economic and environmental 12 effects the project will have on their community, 13 others and the environment. 14 The Nisichawayasihk people will live with 15 both the rewards and consequences of Wuskwatim. It 16 must be their decision. Thank you. Ekosi. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Questions? 18 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you very much for 19 your thoughtful, heartfelt, excellent presentation. 20 There is a camera at the back if you did wish to 21 speak Cree or if your elders did. That's for the NCN 22 people. 23 CHIEF WAVEY: Pardon me? 24 MS. AVERY KINEW: If you wish to speak in 25 Cree or your elders, there is a camera recording 6715 1 this. 2 CHIEF WAVEY: I'll give it my best shot. 3 4 (CREE SPOKEN) 5 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Seeing no other questions. 7 Oh, sorry. 8 MR. L. DYSART: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 Good morning, Chief Robert Wavey, and the Elders from 10 Fox Lake Cree Nation. My question is are you aware 11 of the Community of South Indian Lake and the lake 12 Southern Indian Lake that is the reservoir that will 13 power the Wuskwatim dam? 14 CHIEF WAVEY: Yes. 15 MR. L. DYSART: Are you also aware the 16 population of South Indian Lake is approximately 17 about 1,000 people and 900 of those are NCN Band 18 members? 19 CHIEF WAVEY: Yes. 20 MR. L. DYSART: Would you agree that that 21 large number of people and a significant percentage 22 of the population of NCN should have been involved in 23 discussions right from the beginning of the Wuskwatim 24 project. 25 CHIEF WAVEY: If they are members of the 6716 1 NCN, I imagine they should have been and may have 2 been. 3 MR. L. DYSART: In regards to traditional 4 knowledge and the definition of traditional 5 knowledge, would you agree that such a large group of 6 people, who may be potentially impacted by the 7 project, be involved in the discussions and 8 definitions of traditional knowledge? 9 CHIEF WAVEY: Yes. 10 MR. L. DYSART: Thank you. I have no 11 further questions. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Osborne. 13 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 14 Good morning, Mr. Wavey. 15 16 (CREE SPOKEN) 17 18 Two questions for clarification purposes, 19 Mr. Wavey. When you said what good are the rights 20 when the lakes and rivers are dead, can you elaborate 21 on that a little bit? 22 CHIEF WAVEY: The impacts, I guess nobody 23 at that time knew what the potential impacts, even 24 though everybody gave their best guess, nobody really 25 understood how development would affect the land and 6717 1 the waters. I mean we're talking, what, 40 years ago 2 now. So if you don't do anything now and if you 3 don't -- we need to look at the new ecosystem that's 4 going to be developed, that's going to be created as 5 a result of development, then we need to consider if 6 there are ways and means that we can look at the new 7 ecosystem as a value added development, to replace 8 any lost -- to replace any lost livelihoods of the 9 traditional harvesters. 10 So in many cases now, in a lot of the 11 areas of the river, there may be fish as you know but 12 they are probably not edible or they are not the 13 quality they used to be. And that's probably almost 14 throughout our whole area. So we have to make sure 15 that even though that if the fish are going to 16 survive, that they are quality fish. 17 And so that's the point I was trying to 18 make or we're trying to make in this presentation. 19 MR. OSBORNE: Would it be safe to say 20 that, I seem to understand that what you're saying in 21 regards to development projects is that you support 22 any development project provided it is a sustainable 23 development project not just any other projects of 24 the past. And that's the reason why you support 25 NCN's Wuskwatim discussions here. 6718 1 CHIEF WAVEY: No, I don't think it's safe 2 to say that by the way. We support their right to 3 make their own decision. And as any First Nation 4 person probably looks at it, I suspect and I trust 5 they will have considered all of the potential 6 effects that that project will have, not only on them 7 but to others and to the environment. And that there 8 are measures going to be put in place or discussions 9 held with those that will be affected. So at the 10 same time, it's their, it's their decision. So I 11 respect their autonomy and their sovereignty. They 12 should be free to make that choice. 13 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you. 14 CHIEF WAVEY: Hydro development in 15 general, well, I think I've also said I'm not here 16 supporting any particular project, not at this time. 17 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Wavey. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We appreciate 19 your presentation. We get from it the benefit of 20 many years of experience, the project, and also 21 cannot do otherwise but see through this the 22 tremendous hope you hold for the future and we 23 appreciate and thank you for that. 24 CHIEF WAVEY: Thank you. 25 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we could 6719 1 assign an exhibit number to the presentation of Chief 2 Robert Wavey at Fox Lake Cree Nation at OTH-1032. 3 (EXHIBIT OTH-1032: Presentation to 4 Manitoba Clean Environment Commission by 5 Chief Robert Wavey, Fox Lake Cree Nation, 6 May 27, 2004) 7 8 MR. GREWAR: And I wonder if the 9 Commission would like to request a copy of the 10 overhead projections on CD? Is that possible? 11 MR. LAWRENCHUK: Yes. 12 13 (UNDERTAKING OTH-92: Produce copy of Fox Lake 14 overhead projections on CD) 15 16 MR. GREWAR: In which I will assign an 17 exhibit number then to those, once received, as 18 OTH-1033. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 19 20 (EXHIBIT OTH-1033: CD of Fox Lake 21 overhead projections) 22 23 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll have a break until 24 11:00. 25 6720 1 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 10:45 A.M. and 2 RECONVENED AT 11:08 A.M.) 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar, would you 5 proceed to swearing in. 6 MR. GREWAR: Sir, could you state your 7 name for the record, please? 8 MR. MARTIN: David Martin. 9 MR. GREWAR: Sir, are you aware that it 10 is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly mislead this 11 Commission? 12 MR. MARTIN: I do now. 13 MR. GREWAR: Knowing that, do you promise 14 to tell just the truth in proceedings before this 15 Commission? 16 MR. MARTIN: I do. 17 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 18 19 (DAVID MARTIN: SWORN) 20 21 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed. 22 MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and 23 Commissioners. The Manitoba Building and 24 Construction Trades Council is pleased to present to 25 the Clean Environment Commission our views and 6721 1 policies as they relate to the proposed Wuskwatim 2 Generating Station and Transmission Project. 3 The Manitoba Building and Construction 4 Trades Council consists of 16 affiliated craft unions 5 and represents over 5,000 construction workers within 6 Manitoba. The building trades has served the 7 interest of craft workers for over 90 years, 8 promoting fair wages, improving working conditions, 9 promoting member education and training programs and 10 promoting our members' goals to have a safe and 11 healthy workplace. 12 We support the Wuskwatim project for the 13 economic benefits that it offers all of Manitobans, 14 and in particular, those living in the north. Major 15 developments such as a Wuskwatim Generating Station 16 and Transmission Project have the potential to offer 17 an unprecedented level of training opportunities and 18 jobs for those working on the project. 19 Minister Reg Alcock, President of the 20 Treasury Board, Minister responsible for the Canadian 21 Wheat Board and on behalf of the Honourable Joe 22 Volpe, Minister of Human Resources Development in 23 announcing a $22 million investment in northern 24 training stated that he appreciated the wide range of 25 partners involved and added that this initiative will 6722 1 put Northern Manitoba Aboriginal people front and 2 centre in filling the growing demand for a skilled 3 workforce. 4 We have learned that poverty is not the 5 only barrier to success. Systemic barriers are 6 deterrents for Aboriginal or Northern people wishing 7 to enter a trade. These include program funding that 8 is inconsistent or lacking, misleading information, 9 want people to train but can't find jobs, 10 project-related training that is inadequate, leaving 11 the student unable to work on the dam site but able 12 to build a house on a reserve. If they choose not to 13 leave the community, the job ends when the project 14 ends. Industry driven programs that lack 15 cross-cultural training. A lack of community and/or 16 Aboriginal business in program design and ongoing 17 monitoring. Funds that can be limited for supplies 18 but not sufficient for the success of the student. 19 And too much of repeat training without 20 certification. 21 In addition, those wanting to enter a 22 trade and become integrated into Canada's workforce 23 face internal barriers as well. These include 24 prejudice or lack of cultural awareness on the site. 25 Hiring trends done by word of mouth where contractors 6723 1 tend to bring in their own workers from other 2 provinces. Formal education restrictions. Low 3 self-esteem, lack of skills and knowledge, lack of 4 mobility, lack of transportation, cycles of poverty 5 and dependence on social assistance, isolation either 6 in location or on the job, and lack of after care and 7 follow-up. 8 During the Limestone Project, great 9 numbers of Northern Aboriginals were promised that 10 they would reap the benefits of the construction 11 through a provision of the Northern Aboriginals and 12 residents. The Burntwood/Nelson Collective Agreement 13 contained provisions for hiring but no provisions for 14 training. As a result, very few Aboriginal people 15 worked in designated trade areas on the project and 16 went on to become journeypersons. 17 Some of the events that occurred on the 18 Limestone Project will reoccur if we are not diligent 19 in the training and tracking of Aboriginal and 20 northern apprentices. For example, the Northern 21 Resident Employment Committee annual report of, I 22 just want to correct our statement, that's 1991, not 23 1999, demonstrates the following. In the period of 24 1986 to 1991, the percentage of Northern Aboriginals 25 working as high as 31 per cent. Resignations from 6724 1 this group, however, were as high as 132 per cent. 2 Discharged workers in the same period added to this 3 group with a high of 13 per cent. Of the 46 workers 4 remaining at the end of the seven year period, 60 per 5 cent worked in non-construction occupations such as 6 catering, security guards and labourers. And very 7 few individuals had the opportunity to reach 8 journeyperson status in their trade. 9 Understandably, the manner in which mega 10 Hydro projects have addressed training has broken 11 promises and spirit. Wuskwatim gives us the 12 opportunity to work together to heal the spirits of 13 Aboriginal and northern people and to provide them 14 with meaningful productive training. 15 Real partnerships and investment in 16 training and employment will be embraced by the 17 Manitoba Building Trades and the Allied Hydro 18 Council. If I can just clarify here, Mr. Chairman, 19 the Manitoba Building Trade and the Allied Hydro 20 Council are in many ways synonymous in their make-up 21 and who participates. 22 We will address the past and present 23 barriers and remember the lessons that have been 24 taught. This is most important now as the Aboriginal 25 population is growing at three times the rate of the 6725 1 non-Aboriginal population. It is suggested that by 2 2006, the population of working age aboriginals will 3 number 920,000 nationally, with the majority residing 4 in Western Canada. This is a challenge to the 5 construction sector to take advantage of an 6 increasing labour pool. To achieve this, we must 7 start now, so we have journeymen ready for the 8 future. Currently, only 3 per cent of workers in 9 construction are Aboriginal or Metis. Given 10 shortages that exist now or will occur, this growth 11 in population will provide the construction industry 12 with an important resource. 13 We believe that the training of northern 14 Aboriginal and residents has to be customized to the 15 learner. 16 Studies have shown that institutional 17 learning does not produce the same required results 18 in northern areas as it does in southern or 19 mainstream areas due to lower education levels, 20 cultural bias and teaching methodology. With 21 traditional oral culture, learning is best achieved 22 by exploration, communication and hands-on 23 experience. In theory, the apprenticeship system 24 would seem to be a very good fit with 80 per cent of 25 the work being practical and on the job and 20 per 6726 1 cent in the classroom. However, this is not the 2 case. 3 Bias wording of material used at work and 4 apprenticeship exams result in failure. 5 During the building of the Limestone 6 Generating Station, there were carpenters and 7 electricians trained, to name a few. However, when 8 it came time to build the dam, the training had made 9 participants able to whether build or wire a house 10 but none had learned the skills required to be 11 productive at the site. Potential journeypersons 12 were either let go or resigned because they were 13 unprepared for work. The end result was very few 14 apprentices could continue their training and fewer 15 journeypersons who could teach them. 16 Training needs to be relevant to the 17 learner. Having to learn job specific workplace 18 essential skills and applying prior learning 19 assessment tools will help to ensure the lack of 20 formal education does not become a barrier to 21 success. 22 There has to be a significant lead time 23 to make participants employment ready to ensure that 24 Northern Aboriginals will be nearing the last year 25 apprenticeship or have become a journeyperson. 6727 1 Cultural awareness training should be provided to 2 every person on the work site. 3 Job orientation, life skills, 4 pre-employment, upgrading, hands-on paid training, 5 mentoring, job shadowing, consistent evaluations and 6 follow-up should also be provided. A conscious 7 effort to provide real training and work with results 8 should be adhered to. Hours of training should be 9 recognized as apprenticeship hours and certification 10 outside of apprenticeship for those when required for 11 trades such as labourers, equipment operators and 12 others who are not designated trades. 13 Most of the jobs created on this project 14 will be unionized under the Burntwood/Nelson 15 Agreement between Hydro management and the Allied 16 Hydro Council which is made up of the unions in the 17 Manitoba Building and Construction Trades Council. 18 This agreement is currently being renegotiated and 19 construction is expected to take six years. 20 The Manitoba Building and Construction 21 Trades Council recognizes the difficulty of the past 22 and the potential for the future. The Wuskwatim 23 Generating Station and Transmission Project will 24 generate 100 jobs in the first two years; however, 25 most will be non-designated trades such as labourers, 6728 1 catering, security and clerical staff. 2 This will allow the Manitoba building 3 trades to promote the Northern Aboriginal employment 4 in these areas while preparing participants to move 5 towards their career goals in the trades through 6 assessment and placement with an employer or 7 training. 8 Northern aboriginals should have an input 9 in developing and validating the methods and language 10 of training programs. In addition, relationships 11 must be forged with community members and they should 12 take the role of the stakeholders as an ownership 13 role and provide the apprentice front-line access to 14 apprenticeship programs. 15 We are also pleased to say that workplace 16 health and safety will be given a high priority on 17 the Wuskwatim project. Recent studies indicate that 18 the highest number of accidents involve young, 19 inexperienced and undertrained workers. 20 The future of the province looks bright 21 for next 10 years or so with the potential of more 22 Hydro work including Conawapa and Gull-Keeyask as 23 well as projects such as the Floodway Expansion 24 Project, a new Hydro building and the potential of 25 the Manitoba-Nunavut road are also being studied. 6729 1 Wuskwatim marks a new era in the 2 development of Northern Manitoba. It is a model of 3 how communities can work in partnership with 4 developers like Manitoba Hydro, allowing them to 5 share in the profits and opportunities generated by 6 the development. 7 The potential future growth in this 8 generation and the next will show itself by 9 excellence in community schools, the development of a 10 learning culture, plans for post-secondary education 11 and as well as tradesmen or doctors, a prosperous 12 community where buildings, business and houses are 13 being built and the promise of a bright tomorrow. To 14 reach this potential, there must first be hope. With 15 the Wuskwatim Generating Station and the Transmission 16 Project, a reality, there is indeed hope. 17 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Martin. 19 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 20 assign Exhibit number OTH-1034 to the presentation of 21 the Manitoba Building and Construction Trades 22 Council. 23 24 (EXHIBIT OTH-1034: Presentation by David 25 Martin, Executive Director, Manitoba 6730 1 Building and Construction Trades Council, 2 May 27, 2004) 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Martin. As Executive 5 Director of the Manitoba Building Trades, is this 6 your document? 7 MR. MARTIN: Yes, it is. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: You make it yours? 9 MR. MARTIN: I'm sorry? 10 THE CHAIRMAN: You make it yours? You 11 are committed to this document? 12 MR. MARTIN: We are. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: We heard a moment ago 14 about the bad experience with some of the 15 hydroelectric projects which affected the people of 16 Fox Lake and the learning that they indicate they 17 have acquired from it. You come here to tell us as 18 well the learning that the building trades have 19 learned from past projects. And you're saying that 20 with this learning, if I hear you correctly, you have 21 learned as well in your field of the mistakes of the 22 past, that you are prepared to address this project 23 in a different way altogether. Do you think there is 24 enough lead time between now, and if Wuskwatim is to 25 proceed, to prepare the workers to actually fulfil 6731 1 the roles that you see for them? 2 MR. MARTIN: I think a short answer is 3 yes, but it would obviously be a qualified answer not 4 knowing when the start time is going to actually 5 happen. And I just want to comment a little bit on 6 what we have learned and how we have learned it. 7 The building trades unions, although, 8 have been peripheral in the areas of training in 9 previous Hydro projects. Since the completion of 10 Limestone, there has been a change in direction as 11 far as trade unions are concerned in embracing and 12 committing to the training of their workforce. And 13 we think we have a new skill to offer, so to speak, 14 in today's world that we didn't have perhaps in the 15 first 40 years of Hydro development in Manitoba. 16 Some of the references in this document 17 to what we have learned did not just come from 18 previous Hydro development projects but also has come 19 through some of the work that we are involved in 20 nationally with our Construction Sector Council where 21 recent studies of Aboriginal training programs across 22 this country has given us some information that we 23 think is valuable and applicable to a project like 24 this. 25 Getting back to your question as to 6732 1 whether or not training programs can be implemented 2 in a manner that would facilitate skilled workers 3 entering the project, I think we are saying we feel 4 we have a contribution to make as building trade 5 unions, as part of the process. And with the 6 cooperation of all those parties, we believe that 7 this could be successful as well. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We've heard 9 here Hydro's commitment to giving priority to people 10 of the north and specifically to Aboriginal people as 11 being employed and trained for the employment or jobs 12 that will be available in this project. Are you 13 committed to the same extent to harmonize with 14 Hydro's commitment to make this happen? 15 MR. MARTIN: It's been our history to 16 recognize the Aboriginal communities in Northern 17 Manitoba and development Hydro projects within the 18 Burntwood/Nelson Collective Agreement and we would 19 continue to support that, yes. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Sargeant. 21 MR. SARGEANT: Mr. Martin, how big a job 22 would it be to, I don't know whether adapt is a right 23 word, but I'll use it, adapt the apprenticeship 24 programs to achieve some of what you've set out in 25 this paper. Would it be a major task or is it just a 6733 1 matter of having some commitment to some of these 2 other aspects that you noted? 3 MR. MARTIN: I think there's been -- and 4 just as an aside, I am also a board member on the 5 Manitoba Apprenticeship Trades Qualification Board 6 and I know the Board and the province and the 7 participants in apprenticeship training have looked 8 at the issue of accommodating alternative ways to 9 deliver apprenticeship programs to groups such as 10 Aboriginal groups. And we've had some attempts at 11 that in the past with some success and some failures. 12 But I believe there's a willingness by the 13 participants in apprenticeship training to make an 14 initiative like Aboriginal training work in 15 community. 16 I know recently, our Board and the 17 government has appointed an Aboriginal councillor in 18 the north specifically for apprenticeship training. 19 So I think with a sincere effort to look 20 at how apprenticeship programs and the content of the 21 curriculum are written and delivered would lead to 22 success for more participants. 23 MR. SARGEANT: We heard here yesterday, 24 we've heard it before, but it was confirmed yesterday 25 by Ken Adams, the Vice-President of Hydro, 6734 1 particularly in the aftermath of the announcement of 2 the $22 million federal money last week, we heard 3 that there's about $60 million now available for 4 training Northern Aboriginal workers. 5 Have you, either through your role with 6 the Building Trades Council or through your role with 7 the Apprenticeship Program, been involved in setting 8 up any of that training? 9 MR. MARTIN: No, we haven't. 10 MR. SARGEANT: Would you be prepared to 11 participate? 12 MR. MARTIN: We would absolutely be 13 prepared to participate. And I think it would be -- 14 this is a personal opinion, I think it would be a 15 mistake to ignore us. I think we have a lot to 16 offer. We have a lot of knowledge. We are in a 17 front line of developing our workforce and securing 18 jobs for workers and I think we are a natural fit to 19 that process. 20 MR. SARGEANT: Were you involved in the 21 mid-eighties with any of the development of the 22 Limestone Training and Employment Agency? 23 MR. MARTIN: No. 24 MR. SARGEANT: Maybe you know the 25 history. I understand, I was told this recently by 6735 1 somebody who was quite involved in that process, that 2 there was actually the building trades unions that 3 insisted that a certain percentage of trainees on the 4 jobs be Aboriginal. Are you familiar with that, do 5 you know that? 6 MR. MARTIN: It's part of the -- it's 7 part of the Burntwood/Nelson agreement as far as the 8 hiring preference is concerned. And I'm simply going 9 by memory. I do know that building trades unions, I 10 think the United Association of Plumbers and Pipe 11 Fitters did some extensive training with some of the 12 trades that they represent as well as others. And I 13 know there has been a historical support for 14 developing skilled workers within the Aboriginal 15 communities for the trade unions. 16 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you. Those are all 17 the questions I have. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Nepinak. 19 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. Mr. Martin, I 20 wonder if you can explain the term Allied Council, 21 Allied Hydro Council? I know Hydro Management but 22 you also used the term Allied Hydro Council is made 23 up of unions. Could you explain that for us, please? 24 MR. MARTIN: The Allied Hydro Council of 25 Manitoba is an umbrella group of the building trades 6736 1 construction unions within the province which is 2 formed into an Allied Hydro Council. They are the 3 signatory partners to the Burntwood/Nelson Agreement. 4 The difference between the Allied Hydro 5 Council and the Manitoba Building Trades Council is 6 that within the Allied Hydro Council, it is also 7 representative by the international unions across 8 Canada. So there is another representation group 9 from our internationals within the Allied Hydro 10 Council. So there are two bodies there. 11 The Manitoba Building Trades Council is 12 made up of the building trades unions within the 13 province. So fundamentally, they are one in the same 14 group. 15 MR. NEPINAK: Okay. You stated that 16 currently, only 3 per cent of the workers in 17 construction are Aboriginal or Metis. Under your 18 vision or commitment, do you see in the next say six 19 years, you know, the life span of the project that it 20 goes through, do you see an increase of this in that 21 time period say to about 20 per cent? 22 MR. MARTIN: To 20 per cent? 23 MR. NEPINAK: Yes. 24 MR. MARTIN: I don't think 20 per cent is 25 an unrealistic number and especially in projects that 6737 1 are stationed in Northern Manitoba. I think everyone 2 here is aware of the statistical number of 14 or 15 3 per cent of the Aboriginal population of Manitoba is 4 in fact Aboriginal. 5 We would welcome any increase in the 6 Aboriginal participation in the construction 7 workforce, not just here in Manitoba but across 8 Canada. 9 MR. NEPINAK: Okay. My final question is 10 you say your allied workers in Hydro, you are 11 renegotiating the agreement. I don't see or I don't 12 hear the proponent, the second proponent in this 13 project is NCN. Is that part of the renegotiating 14 package? 15 MR. MARTIN: The agreement has been 16 negotiated between the Allied Hydro Council and the 17 Hydro Management Team, I believe that's the correct 18 name, which is the employer in that particular 19 relationship. The relationship with NCN, I am -- 20 that's something that Hydro is working on or is 21 declaring. We fundamentally bargain with the Hydro 22 Management Team when we bargain that agreement. 23 MS. AVERY KINEW: Just a supplementary to 24 that, we did hear, I don't remember which union, but 25 they did say that NCN was involved in the background 6738 1 and the First Nations were involved. 2 MR. MARTIN: Well, I know there is a 3 letter, Principle Agreement I believe it's called, 4 with NCN and Hydro and I know that they have input in 5 the process. What that input entails is we're not 6 part of that process so I can't really comment on it. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mayer. 8 MR. MAYER: I take it, Mr. Martin, it 9 would be fair to say that the Allied Hydro Council is 10 the collective bargaining agent for all the unionized 11 workers on the Hydro project; is that a fair -- 12 MR. MARTIN: Well put. 13 MR. MAYER: Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions? 15 MR. SARGEANT: Does that include caterers 16 and security? 17 MR. MARTIN: Yes. 18 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Avery Kinew, I thought 20 you had completed. Go ahead. 21 MS. AVERY KINEW: No, I was just jumping 22 in there. Mr. Martin, I thank you for bringing more 23 detail than anybody has so far. I just wondered on 24 page 3, you talk about a report with the Northern 25 Residents Employment Committee Annual Report 1991. 6739 1 Who is that? Is that Manitoba? 2 MR. MARTIN: That's Manitoba, yes. 3 MS. AVERY KINEW: Do you have a 4 reference? 5 MR. MARTIN: We could provide copies, if 6 the Commission would like, of the full report. 7 8 (UNDERTAKING OTH-93: Provide copy of full Northern 9 Residents Employment Committee Annual Report 1991) 10 11 MS. AVERY KINEW: Maybe I've missed it in 12 the EIS but I've never seen a listing of who belongs 13 to the Trades and Construction Council or the Allied 14 Hydro Council? 15 MR. MARTIN: We could provide that as 16 well. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We'd 18 appreciate if you do. 19 MR. MARTIN: Okay. Both of those 20 reports? 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, yes. 22 23 (UNDERTAKING OTH-94: Provide a listing of who 24 belongs to the Trades and Construction Council or the 25 Allied Hydro Council) 6740 1 MS. AVERY KINEW: I was also wondering, 2 you answered a question to Mr. Sargeant, I think, 3 that you have not been involved in setting up 4 training? 5 MR. MARTIN: In which? 6 MS. AVERY KINEW: You have not been 7 involved in setting up training or discussions about 8 training yet and yet you are on the provincial board 9 of apprenticeship qualification? 10 MR. MARTIN: I took the question to mean 11 they bill the Trades Council itself as being a 12 recognized partner to the development of training in 13 the north. No, we have not. 14 MS. AVERY KINEW: As part of the 15 provincial board, have you been involved? I 16 understand advance education and training is very 17 involved? 18 MR. MARTIN: Yes, they are. They have a 19 committee dealing with Aboriginal apprenticeship 20 programs in the north. They have established an 21 Aboriginal apprenticeship councillor in the north and 22 our role as a Board member is advisory to that whole 23 process. 24 MS. AVERY KINEW: Weren't you appointed 25 to that because you're the head of the Tradesmen and 6741 1 Construction Union? 2 MR. MARTIN: Not because I was a head, it 3 was because someone wanted me to be there. 4 MS. AVERY KINEW: So this is some kind of 5 interlocking directorate situation? The union is not 6 involved but you're involved? I don't understand 7 this? 8 MR. MARTIN: The Apprenticeship Board is 9 a 13 person board I believe of which six 10 representatives comes from labour. Pardon me, I 11 think it's five from labour and five from employers 12 as well as community representatives and public 13 interest groups. So I am appointed as one of the 14 labour representatives. 15 So our role on the board is to represent 16 all labour. And my background is construction which 17 two of us come from the construction sector. 18 MS. AVERY KINEW: But you feel the union 19 should be more formally involved? 20 MR. MARTIN: I think the role that we can 21 offer in regards to establishing training initiatives 22 with Aboriginal groups would be a positive one for 23 all parties, especially bringing our expertise to the 24 table. 25 MS. AVERY KINEW: We've heard a lot in 6742 1 the course of these hearings about the bad track 2 record of employing Native people in Hydro projects 3 and we see that you clearly state that training was 4 the crucial issue and wasn't connected enough and now 5 there is an opportunity to be more connected? 6 MR. MARTIN: Our view is that the 7 connection to jobs and training has been missing in 8 past Allied Hydro agreements, a direct connection 9 written into the collective agreement. The form of 10 training that, as we understand it in the past, has 11 been preparing workers for potential jobs but without 12 no firm commitment or obligation that those jobs will 13 actually take place or people will actually be hired. 14 And we also believe there is a bigger role that we 15 all can play in ensuring that individuals that are 16 trained will be successful and will, in fact, fulfil 17 those jobs and not just simply be given the chance to 18 fill the job. 19 MS. AVERY KINEW: I understand that the 20 contractors will be posting the job descriptions, 21 maybe even helping to design these. And how would 22 the union recommend getting around hiring that tends 23 to be done by word of mouth that's on page 2 of your 24 presentation? 25 MR. MARTIN: The reference to hiring by 6743 1 word of mouth is the traditional method I guess you 2 might say in the construction industry as it exists 3 across the country. 4 MS. AVERY KINEW: Contractors are used to 5 working with certain crews? 6 MR. MARTIN: Contractors and -- in the 7 construction contractor, typically a small 8 contractor, many times less than 20 employees. And 9 so it's a very close-knit group. And they have a 10 ready supply in some cases of friends, family and 11 acquaintances that they select for hiring. 12 In the case of the Allied Hydro projects 13 or Hydro projects, the hiring process is very clear 14 under the Collective Agreement. And all hiring does 15 come through the unions. 16 The issue that we think can be improved 17 on is the section in the agreement that provides the 18 contractor with the final say on who's qualified. 19 And I think if more effort was placed on determining 20 the qualifications of individuals and ensuring they 21 are qualified, and that's the role I think we can 22 play in better training initiatives and stronger 23 language within the agreement, that workers will in 24 fact be not just trained but would be preferenced for 25 jobs and a stronger effort will be made to make them 6744 1 successful at the end of the day. 2 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you. How many 3 Northern First Nation people belong to all your 4 unions? Do you have an idea? 5 MR. MARTIN: That will vary, and there is 6 from trade union to trade union. In some of the 7 local unions, the number is perhaps 15 or 20 per 8 cent. In others, it is 1 per cent or less. We 9 haven't honestly done a calculation or I am not even 10 sure if we're able to in respect to how many 11 aboriginals are represented in our group. I think it 12 will be fair to say that national studies reflecting 13 3 per cent of aboriginals participate in the 14 construction industry, it likely wouldn't be much 15 different on average in the unionized sector as well. 16 MS. AVERY KINEW: How would you get some 17 knowledge of what's required to make training 18 culturally appropriate and also the cross-cultural 19 training for your union members if you don't have 20 that many members? 21 MR. MARTIN: Well, I'll give you an 22 example of what we're doing presently or what we have 23 done over the past year and a half, we being the 24 building trades, in respect to the floodway project. 25 That project has the potential for a tremendous 6745 1 training opportunity for many occupations involved 2 there. We have taken the initiative of meeting with 3 Aboriginal groups and invited them to partner with us 4 to develop what that training should look like, how 5 jobs should be allocated and how we can make it all 6 successful. And I will say the experience of our 7 group in the last year and a half I think has been 8 very positive by bringing all parties to the table at 9 the early stages of developing a training initiative 10 and presenting that idea to the employer. 11 MS. AVERY KINEW: Is there any thought 12 given to having some of your more experienced First 13 Nation members of your union on the executive or 14 involved in -- 15 MR. MARTIN: We have -- we have 16 presently, on our executive Board, a First Nation 17 individual who represents the Labourer's Union. 18 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you. And I think 19 that's all for now, thanks. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Nepinak. 21 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. I think the 22 answer to my question was addressed one time by 23 another construction or about membership, but I'd 24 like to hear yours. When does one become a union 25 member? When he is applying for training or, you 6746 1 know, after he's had training, then he becomes a 2 member? Because my own experience anyway, once you 3 want to get a permanent employment, you know, you 4 need to be a member or a non-member. And we know 5 what the non-member and union members. But what 6 would be your view as to when First Nations say use 7 my own community if 50 people want to train? Do they 8 need to become union members first before they take 9 that training or, you know, maybe it's identified 10 here? I am not sure, but I'd like to get your view. 11 MR. MARTIN: My personal view and our 12 past practice is typically nobody becomes a member in 13 the training process prior to be employed by a 14 contractor, unless they choose to. I don't think 15 anybody has refused to become a member but if they 16 choose to come forward to a trade union and ask to 17 join that union, I think you'll get a positive 18 response from that trade union. It's just not 19 required to take the training portion of the work. 20 Where a union membership becomes required 21 or compulsory is once the job has been awarded to the 22 individual and they start working for a contractor, 23 which is represented by a trade union, they then 24 would become members of that particular trade union 25 within I believe it's a 30 day time frame. 6747 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Ms. Avery 2 Kinew? 3 MS. AVERY KINEW: I was just wondering 4 when you think the Collective Agreement might be -- 5 are you waiting for the CEC to make a report and the 6 Minister to make a report and a licence to be issued 7 or what's the procedure here? I didn't hear much 8 from -- 9 MR. MARTIN: We are at the bottom end of 10 the scale of importance as to how this and when this 11 Collective Agreement gets ratified. We are ready to 12 negotiate and have indicated so to the Hydro 13 Management Team and we are waiting for that signal 14 from Management, Hydro Management to proceed with 15 negotiations. But I think once we get back to the 16 table with a clear signal to proceed to conclude the 17 agreement, that could be accomplished within a few 18 months. 19 MS. AVERY KINEW: Thank you. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions? Mr. 21 Thomas, is this a question or the other issue we were 22 talking about? 23 MR. THOMAS: The other issue. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. We thank you, 25 Mr. Martin. Ms. Valerie Matthews Lemieux will finish 6748 1 this. 2 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Mr. Martin, could 3 you just clarify for us that although the Allied 4 Hydro Council has not been involved directly in 5 training or discussions, that your member unions have 6 been, such as IBEW, the Carpenters, Teamsters, IUOE? 7 MR. MARTIN: Correct. The relationship 8 into training from the council's perspective is 9 different than that of individual trade unions. And 10 there has been several individual trade unions who 11 have taken initiatives within Aboriginal communities 12 in the north over the last number of years, notably 13 the carpenter's union, the IBEW electrician's union, 14 operating engineers and perhaps others who have 15 partnered with one group or another to assist in 16 developing a skilled workforce. That's not the type 17 of participation that I'm talking about when we talk 18 about having the council as a group be part of that 19 process of developing a training program. 20 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: That's all. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Martin. 22 MR. MARTIN: Thank you. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: There's other questions, 24 I'm sorry. Come forward. 25 MR. ROBINSON: Good morning, 6749 1 Commissioners, Mr. Martin. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Your name, please? 3 MR. ROBINSON: Roland Robinson. I'm a 4 citizen of Pimicikamak at Cross Lake. I just want to 5 clarify a few matters for the Commission and your 6 different groups that are represented here. 7 As far as unions are considered, I don't 8 want the communities to be mislead. The union 9 members are a first priority on jobs as far as 10 construction is concerned. I'm a qualified 11 pipefitter, a water treatment plant operator and a 12 journeyman plumber as well. So I have the 13 experience. And in order to be employed in these 14 commercial, commercial trades, you need to get -- 15 there is training but there has to be employment as 16 well. Is somebody prepared to employ these people, 17 our people on commercial to get the necessary 18 training for these employment opportunities for our 19 people in the north? Who is prepared to make those 20 opportunities for people to get trained? 21 MR. MARTIN: If I understand the 22 question, you're asking if the building trades unions 23 are interested in, are willing to hire an individual 24 like yourself from Northern Manitoba to work in 25 commercial jobs elsewhere in the province and perhaps 6750 1 elsewhere in the country? Is that the gist of the 2 question? 3 MR. ROBINSON: No. What your 4 presentation here, our people lack the necessary 5 experience -- 6 MR. MARTIN: Okay. 7 MR. ROBINSON: -- with commercial. 8 MR. MARTIN: Right, I hear you. 9 MR. ROBINSON: Is somebody prepared to 10 make employment to make the necessary -- 11 MR. MARTIN: And you're speaking with the 12 limited opportunities for varied commercial skills in 13 the north, you wouldn't necessarily have the skills 14 to work on other projects and how can we accommodate 15 that? 16 MR. ROBINSON: Yeah. 17 MR. MARTIN: I think that can be 18 accommodated in two ways and it's a very valid point 19 and it's a point we made in the presentation. It's 20 difficult to employ a house builder as a trades 21 person on a major industrial project like a Hydro 22 dam. The skills are very much different as you 23 probably are aware. And we think that through 24 opening the doors for Aboriginal apprentices in 25 particular and trades people to access jobs in other 6751 1 areas of the province where those skills are actually 2 being learned is one of the ways which we can 3 contribute to developing skilled workers for future 4 Hydro dam. 5 So I would say the short answer would be 6 yes, there would be a willingness to do that or take 7 on that type of role. 8 MR. ROBINSON: So I just wanted to make 9 that point, that I don't want the people to be 10 mislead that, oh, there's jobs, going to be jobs for 11 northern people and you need the necessary skills. 12 MR. MARTIN: Precisely. 13 MR. ROBINSON: I don't want the people to 14 be mislead back here. 15 MR. MARTIN: Precisely. And I think 16 we've had a history of that in respect to -- lots of 17 folks don't understand trades work per se that a 18 carpenter that builds a house is not necessarily the 19 skilled carpeter that does concrete farming on a 20 Hydro dam. There are different skill sets and 21 different attributes that those two individuals have. 22 And unless you can find ways to upgrade those skills, 23 and I think some of the government initiatives, 24 funding, training programs are concerned is one way. 25 But actual on-the-job experiences, as you are 6752 1 pointing out, is by far the preferred way. 2 MR. ROBINSON: Yeah. 3 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Osborne. 4 MR. OSBORNE: Thank you once again, Mr. 5 Chairman. 6 Mr. Martin, who are you referring to when 7 you say Northern Aboriginals specifically? Is that 8 referring to the NCN members specifically? 9 MR. MARTIN: Those are numbers that have 10 come out of the 1991 report and I believe it would be 11 all those individuals that worked on Hydro dams as 12 declared as Northern Aboriginals. So it wouldn't 13 just be the NCN per se I don't think. 14 MR. OSBORNE: I don't know anything about 15 unions. Can you explain to me what you meant by all 16 hiring comes through the union? 17 MR. MARTIN: Through the Burntwood/Nelson 18 agreement, all dispatch of workers is dispatched 19 through the various trade unions of the particular 20 trade that is necessary on that project. I'll give 21 you a quick example. 22 If a contractor on site needs 20 23 carpenters, those carpenters will be secured through 24 the resources that we have as far as local people 25 first as per the Collective Agreement. Where the 6753 1 individuals finally are dispatched from is the local 2 union itself and they are registered with the local 3 union and will, as previously stated, become members 4 of that union. 5 MR. OSBORNE: What is this 6 Burntwood/Nelson Agreement you keep referring to? 7 What is it? 8 MR. MARTIN: That's the Collective 9 Agreement between the Allied Hydro Council and the 10 Hydro Management Team. That's the Collective 11 Agreement that governs all work on Hydro projects 12 going back for 30 years I believe it is. 13 MR. OSBORNE: Is that a policy? 14 MR. MARTIN: It's a Collective Agreement. 15 It's a public document that you can get your hands 16 on. 17 MR. OSBORNE: Okay. Thank you. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wellington Spence. 19 MR. SPENCE: Yes. My name is Wellington 20 Spence and I have got a question on union. Do you 21 have to pay to get into -- to be a member of the 22 union? What kind of money do I have to pay into it? 23 MR. MARTIN: What kind of money? 24 MR. SPENCE: Yeah. 25 MR. MARTIN: To give you a sense, it's 6754 1 approximately 2 to 3 per cent of gross pay. That's 2 just a rough average. Of the 14 affiliate trade 3 unions that are part of the Allied Hydro Council, 4 they all have a range of union dues. But that would 5 be a fair assessment. 6 MR. SPENCE: And you have to have some 7 kind of a trade to be able to get into the union to 8 have a job? 9 MR. MARTIN: No, not necessarily. There 10 are, as an example, the labourer's union which is 11 made up of cement finishers and labourers and that 12 type of occupation. None of those trades, as we 13 presently have it here in Manitoba, are designated 14 trades. But they have skills and they are skilled 15 workers. 16 MR. SPENCE: And you have to have a paper 17 saying that you're a skilled carpenter or engineer or 18 mechanic? 19 MR. MARTIN: If you're in a designated 20 trade, then there is certificates of qualification 21 issued by the Province under the Apprenticeship Act. 22 MR. SPENCE: I understand you're 23 saying that -- my understanding that you're saying we 24 haven't got the capacity of brain power to learn 25 different skills. Is that what I'm hearing? 6755 1 MR. MARTIN: That's not what you're 2 hearing. That's not what you're hearing. 3 MR. SPENCE: You know, I believe as a 4 First Nation people, the mind is the most powerful 5 gift we are gifted here. And I don't think there's 6 any kind of a job we cannot learn right on the job. 7 MR. MARTIN: I would agree with you. 8 What we have found or what we are saying in our 9 proposal in regards to the language that is used in 10 apprenticeship programs and traditionally is not 11 always plain language. And we think if we're going 12 to train folks on apprenticeship programs, they 13 should at least have the training materials in a 14 language that they readily use on a day-to-day basis. 15 It's not to suggest anything about their intelligence 16 or their education but we found if you don't use 17 language that people can understand, whether it's 18 Aboriginal people or whether it's immigrant people or 19 others that have not been familiar with the language, 20 that creates a barrier. 21 Our proposal and our suggestion is take 22 down those barriers and don't put anything artificial 23 in place because there are intelligent, capable, 24 willing people who can become apprentices if you give 25 them a fair chance. 6756 1 MR. SPENCE: Now if I talk to you in my 2 language, would you say I'm useless to you? 3 MR. MARTIN: Not necessarily, no. 4 MR. SPENCE: Okay. But my understanding 5 of what you're saying, if you don't understand my 6 language, I'm very useless to you. 7 MR. MARTIN: No. 8 MR. SPENCE: You got to understand we 9 think too, we have brains, we think, we think of a 10 lot of things. We understand a lot of things orally, 11 not written, in my understanding anyway. Because as 12 a man in force, in labour, my contribution to the 13 labour force, I never -- I haven't got an education 14 and I worked as a surveyor and a heavy equipment 15 operator and a heavy equipment mechanic without 16 having any kind of training. I learned on the job. 17 And I guess I was lucky to be one of the ones allowed 18 to do that. 19 And the union is supposed to protect you 20 on the job from like getting fired, for reason or 21 not, or whatever reason it is you are getting fired 22 for. But I see as an observer when working in 23 Thompson and then James Bay and other what you call 24 it, there was no protection from the union for our 25 people that got fired for different reasons, hey. 6757 1 There was no protection there from the union. So in 2 a sense, I'm saying that we are paying the union 3 money for nothing. 4 With that, I'd like to thank you, ladies 5 and gentlemen. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You had a 7 question? 8 MR. SARGEANT: Mr. Martin, I'd just like 9 to clarify something in the hiring process. Is it 10 not the case that the first priority goes to a 11 Northern Aboriginal person? And if that person has 12 the skills, it doesn't matter whether he or she is a 13 union member, he or she gets dispatched first. And 14 then once they get to the job, they join the union? 15 MR. MARTIN: I believe, Terry, the answer 16 is the first choice would be a Northern Aboriginal 17 union member. 18 MR. SARGEANT: Okay. And then the second 19 choice would be a Northern Aboriginal person with the 20 skills? 21 MR. MARTIN: Correct. 22 MR. SARGEANT: So a union member from the 23 south would not be dispatched ahead of a non-union 24 member from the north who has the skills? 25 MR. MARTIN: Correct. 6758 1 MR. SARGEANT: Thank you. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Nepinak. 3 MR. NEPINAK: Thank you. You mentioned 4 international unions. I think you've already 5 answered a part of that question. But as you and 6 many of those that are known by the unions, and I was 7 a member of two international unions at one time, but 8 people will come from West Coast, East Coast as union 9 members. How do you handle the international unions, 10 you know, under your present, the way you, you know, 11 allied unions of Manitoba, how do you handle 12 international pressure from your allied unions 13 nationally? 14 MR. MARTIN: I think if I could just 15 explain. The role of the international unions on the 16 Allied Hydro Council I think is a valuable role in 17 that frequently, on major projects like Hydro 18 projects, we have in fact international companies and 19 very large companies. 20 As we have heard here this morning, jobs 21 on the project will be preferenced to Manitobans and 22 to Aboriginals and northern residents and so forth. 23 But at the end of the day, there requires expertise 24 and sometimes requires workers to travel from other 25 provinces. And that's the role that international 6759 1 unions can play in ensuring that those workers that 2 are coming to this site, where necessary, will in 3 fact have the appropriate skills and training that is 4 required and also the ability to perform the work. 5 And in some cases, they are actually employees of the 6 contractors. 7 MR. NEPINAK: I think it was a good 8 question asked by seniority, and I think in union 9 seniority is very important. And the question that 10 was asked, you know, how are you going to deal with 11 that? But I think you have answered it. So once 12 again, I want to thank you. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I see more hands 14 coming up but I promised Mr. Thomas that he would be 15 allowed to proceed before 12:00. And we can carry on 16 for a few minutes after. But I think it's timely 17 that we do interrupt things for another issue that is 18 important. And you can just hopefully stay with us 19 for a bit. 20 MR. THOMAS: I thank you very much, Mr. 21 Chairman. For those of you that are here and are in 22 the audience, we've just lost one of our respected 23 Elders in our community. Her name is Catherine 24 Moore, now the late Catherine Moore. And also a 25 couple days back, we were advised from our NCN 6760 1 members in South Indian Lake that there was a young 2 gentleman that has passed on as well due to 3 unfortunate circumstances. Harvey Harron is his 4 name. And he's part of the Anderson family. 5 So it's one of the toughest things that 6 we find, as leaders of our community to deal with, is 7 the loss of our own people. And even though we are 8 busy taking care of business, we'd like to take a 9 little time to pay our respects. So we'd like to see 10 if we can take a moment of silence. And if everyone 11 can please rise for a moment, we'd appreciate it. 12 13 (MOMENT OF SILENCE) 14 15 MR. THOMAS: Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Thomas. 17 There were other questions. There is a gentleman 18 somewhere. Come on up, sir, and be ready for your 19 question. 20 MR. HART: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My 21 name is Charlie Hart, NCN. In your presentation, you 22 stated that you wanted to avoid barriers from the 23 past. And yet in answering Mr. Sargeant about 24 membership, you said that nobody from the north will 25 be hired unless they are current members of the 6761 1 union? 2 THE CHAIRMAN: No. 3 MR. MARTIN: No. 4 MR. HART: Did I misunderstand that 5 statement? 6 MR. MARTIN: The Collective Agreement 7 states that if you are a Northern Aboriginal person 8 and a union member, you would have a preference over 9 another Northern Aboriginal person who is not a 10 member. But the second choice, once the Northern 11 Aboriginal union members are hired, the next list 12 goes to Northern Aboriginals. 13 MR. HART: That's not how I understood 14 the answer you gave. You said that you had to be a 15 member first before you can get hired. 16 MR. MARTIN: No. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: No, no, no. He said no to 18 that. 19 MR. HART: Okay? 20 MR. MARTIN: Sorry if I mislead you. 21 MR. HART: All right. Thank you. 22 MR. SPENCE: That's one of the questions 23 that I wanted to clarify, too. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Your name, sir? 25 MR. SPENCE: My name is Rodney Spence, 6762 1 Nelson House, Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation. That's 2 one of the things that I thought about and I was 3 sitting behind there with all our young people there 4 that are willing to go to work once the project goes. 5 And now my understanding is the preference that, you 6 know, I don't think there's any clarification 7 preference. 8 I understand there's negotiations that 9 are happening, there's training programs that are 10 happening in our own community. And it seems to me 11 now that the union has got priority, like one 12 gentleman said. And the question that I have is I 13 hope we don't repeat history where our own people 14 like myself and the other people that have talked 15 where we were supposed to be trained, we were given 16 the pick and shovel. And after the pick and shovel, 17 we were supposed to go training, but that didn't 18 happen. We were fired and we weren't hired. We 19 didn't work in INCO, we didn't work in Leaf Rapids. 20 So I think that has to be clarified right 21 from the beginning. Young people are waiting to go 22 to work right now. Now you're saying the union has 23 got preference, northern preference you're talking 24 about. So if I can't work, you're going to get 25 somebody from Newfoundland again. 6763 1 THE CHAIRMAN: No, no. 2 MR. SPENCE: That's my understanding, 3 sir. I just want that for clarification for the 4 young people that are behind that are sitting over 5 there. 6 MR. MARTIN: I think for clarification 7 for the young people, what we're trying to say in 8 this presentation is that we can do a better job in 9 preparing young Northern Aboriginal people and 10 northern persons, period, for potential jobs. And if 11 we work collectively and cooperatively together, we 12 can be successful. And I don't believe there is any 13 particular union that has a bias towards not hiring 14 Northern Aboriginals. 15 But the fact does remain that there are 16 members in your community that belong to a union. 17 They work in your community, live in your community 18 and they belong to a union. The agreement simply 19 says that individual has a preference by virtue of 20 his membership. But it does not exclude anybody and 21 in fact I would say to you that there's a strong 22 willingness by the trade unions to embrace those 23 future young workers. We need good workers in 24 construction and I think the north has a potential to 25 provide those. 6764 1 MR. SPENCE: Is it fair for me to say 2 that there has been limited native participation in 3 the union? 4 MR. MARTIN: Limited in the union? 5 MR. SPENCE: Limited participation in the 6 union? 7 MR. MARTIN: Again, I think I said it 8 varies from union to union. And some unions, there 9 are more Aboriginal members that we could identify 10 than other particular unions. But the participation 11 rate, like it is in all sectors of our economy, is 12 growing. And I see more participation than what we 13 had perhaps 20 years ago or 30 years ago. 14 MR. SPENCE: Thank you very much. 15 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. One more question. 16 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I 17 just wanted to clarify one more point. I know a lot 18 of young people are waiting for employment. 19 Employment is scarce in First Nation communities. 20 But again, I want to stress this point. In order to 21 become an apprentice, you need a job. In order to 22 become a journeyman, you need so many hours in a year 23 to be employed and so many weeks to be trained. And 24 a lot of our people are unemployed. And on your 25 presentation you said there's hope. Now who is 6765 1 prepared to give our people the necessary skills? 2 Like I said, as far as a union is concerned, priority 3 goes to, you said, the northern people but I want to 4 stress this point again. Our people don't have the 5 qualifications for commercial, commercial, like dams. 6 Union members come first and they are 7 going to look up north and unfortunately we don't 8 have the necessary commercial trades people per se. 9 So I don't want to be -- I don't want the people to 10 be mislead, oh, the jobs, so we're going to work, the 11 jobs. Let's be clear on that. Yes, there's labour 12 jobs at the start, like my esteem colleague spoke 13 there. But I just want to clarify that point, who is 14 prepared to employ the people? Is Hydro prepared to 15 train and employ these people? They need the 16 necessary skills, the necessary training for 17 commercial. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: You made your point, sir. 19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, sir. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: And I think the actual 21 point you're making was already answered about the 22 training programs. Do you have anything to add, Mr. 23 Martin? 24 MR. MARTIN: I think just to reinforce 25 one comment and that is we don't support training for 6766 1 the sake of training, we want to train for jobs and 2 we think there is better ways to ensure that the 3 training actually leads to a job and the recipient, 4 the participant is successful at that job. And I 5 think that's the crux of our presentation here. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Thank you very 7 much, Mr. Martin. 8 MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar, I believe Mr. 10 Cormie -- 11 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Is it too late for 12 just one last question for Mr. Martin? 13 THE CHAIRMAN: It's twice, Ms. Matthews 14 Lemieux, that you almost missed the call. 15 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: I'm too busy 16 taking instructions from my client. But in any 17 event, there is just one other question that I wanted 18 to ask about in terms of the BNA and just asking if 19 you can confirm that one of the problems that the 20 Allied Hydro Council has faced is the inability to 21 grieve decisions about job qualification. My 22 understanding is there are a couple of decisions in 23 the 1980s and that's caused a problem and may be some 24 of the kinds of issues that Elder Wellington Spence 25 was referring to. Can you comment on that? 6767 1 MR. MARTIN: As I understand the -- as I 2 understand the agreement on that particular point, 3 the issue of qualification lies in the hands of the 4 contractor. And for the unions to dispute that, I 5 would have to agree that we have limited vehicles 6 with which we could discredit that claim. So it is a 7 problem. 8 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: There would have 9 to be a change to the Collective Agreement? 10 MR. MARTIN: The issue on determining 11 qualifications would have to change, yes. 12 MS. MATTHEWS LEMIEUX: Thank you. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Grewar, I 14 understand that there was to be a statement by Mr. 15 Cormie. Is this something that can occur over a 16 short period of time? 17 MR. GREWAR: I'm not really certain that 18 it was a statement. I believe Mr. Cormie wanted to 19 provide a response to an undertaking but in addition 20 to which I believe that in Manitoba Hydro/NCN had 21 hoped for an opportunity to re-examine Mr. Cormie 22 because he is unavailable tomorrow. I'm not really 23 certain how long they would anticipate that may take. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Bedford? 25 MR. BEDFORD: We could do it immediately 6768 1 after lunch. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We will 3 adjourn for lunch at this point in time. We will be 4 back at quarter after one. 5 6 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 12:14 P.M. 7 AND RECONVENED AT 1:17 P.M.) 8 9 10 THE CHAIRMAN: All right, ladies and 11 gentlemen, we are ready to proceed. 12 First on the order of business for 13 this afternoon deals with an undertaking and I 14 understand Mr. Bedford had some questions for 15 Mr. Cormie and others. 16 MR. BEDFORD: Yes, Mr. Lecuyer, we 17 like to do two things as quickly as we can. 18 Firstly, as some of you will recall 19 when Ms. Phare was cross-examining the EIS panel, 20 Mr. Cormie gave her an undertaking regarding 21 certain data that is recorded at South Indian 22 Lake. 23 Mr. Cormie was here on Friday, May 24 14th to put the undertaking in, time did not 25 permit, but I would like the panel to know that he 6769 1 was able on May 14th to share this undertaking 2 answer privately with Mr. Dysart and with Ms. 3 Phare. I am going to ask him now to put it in on 4 the record. 5 Secondly, because Mr. Cormie is not 6 available tomorrow for redirect, I have a few 7 questions for him that I will put to him by way of 8 redirect examination. 9 Turning firstly to the undertaking, 10 Mr. Cormie, would you please now introduce the 11 undertaking on the record? 12 MR. CORMIE: The request was to 13 provide the history of recorded flows in imperial 14 units for the flows at the Missi Falls Control 15 Structure. 16 On April 13th, 2004, CASIL entered as 17 evidence, a table, shown as tab 7, of the Missi 18 Falls flows in metric units provided to them by 19 the Provincial Water Resource Branch. 20 Also entered was a second table under 21 tab 8 for flows and imperial units, which had been 22 derived incorrectly from the first table. In 23 response to CASIL's request, Manitoba Hydro is 24 providing the actual history of Missi Falls' flows 25 as were recorded in imperial units in the 6770 1 attachment to this handout, titled Missi Falls 2 Total Daily Outflow in cubic feet per second. 3 In response to undertaking MF-49, 4 Manitoba Hydro outlined the six seasonal discharge 5 targets it established for flows at Missi Falls 6 based upon the requirements of Clause 23 of the 7 Churchill Weir Environment Act license. 8 In establishing these discharge 9 targets, Manitoba Hydro recognized that the Missi 10 Falls Control Structure is a remote, unmanned 11 facility and for that reason, it was expected that 12 it would not be possible to maintain exact 13 discharges and that there would be minor daily 14 variations around the targets Manitoba Hydro would 15 set due to uncontrollable factors. However, it 16 was expected that these minor variations would 17 average out over several days. 18 In addition, Manitoba Hydro rounded 19 the targets it established to the nearest 100 20 cubic feet per second as it is impractical to 21 regulate daily to a finer tolerance due to the 22 nature of the control gates. On that basis, 23 actual daily flows within 100 cfs of the seasonal 24 targets comply with Clause 23 requirement to 25 maintain flows no lower than those established 6771 1 during the period 1986 to 1996. 2 Since the Environment Act License 2327 3 was issued, Manitoba Hydro has been in compliance, 4 except for three times when Missi flow change was 5 delayed due to weather. 6 In addition to the Environment Act 7 License, flows at Missi are governed by the 8 Churchill River Diversion Interim License, which 9 required 500 cfs minimum flow during the open 10 water period and 1500 cubic feet per second 11 minimum flow during the ice covered period. 12 Since the Churchill River Diversion 13 became operational, Manitoba Hydro has been in 14 compliance 99 percent of the time. The time of 15 non-compliance was mainly the result of a gate 16 setting error in 1985 when during two separate 17 open water periods, one period of 20 days duration 18 and another of 32 days when the daily average flow 19 was as low as 454 cubic feet per second. 20 MR. BEDFORD: Mr. Cormie, turning now 21 to the questions I have for you on redirect 22 examination. 23 Earlier this week, still on the 24 subject of South Indian Lake, there was 25 considerable discussion about the subject of water 6772 1 level gauges and benchmarks that are referenced in 2 paragraph -- or Clause 21 of the Churchill River 3 Diversion Interim License. 4 Could you please for the benefit of 5 all of us elaborate on what you know about the 6 subject of water level gauges and benchmarks at 7 Southern Indian Lake? 8 MR. CORMIE: A benchmark and a water 9 level gauge are two distinct items. 10 A benchmark and the benchmark referred 11 to in Clause 21 is a brass cap cemented into 12 bedrock. Surveyors have established the elevation 13 of that brass cap relative to sea level. 14 The elevation of the brass cap then 15 becomes a reference point for all elevation limits 16 referenced in the interim license and for Manitoba 17 Hydro's operations. 18 Whereas a water level gauge is an 19 instrument that measures and records the water 20 level of a river or a lake at a specific point. 21 This level is then reported relative to sea level 22 using a nearby benchmark. 23 On Southern Indian Lake water levels 24 are monitored continuously by a network of Water 25 Survey of Canada water level gauges. From the 6773 1 date provided from these gauging stations, 2 Manitoba Hydro determines the lake level for the 3 purpose of operating the project. These levels 4 are preliminary and are subject to after-the-fact 5 adjustment by Water Survey of Canada due to 6 uncertainties resulting from gauge recalibration 7 and/or mechanical electronic and satellite 8 problems. 9 The official Water Survey of Canada 10 record may not be available for as long as one 11 year. However, Manitoba Hydro operates based upon 12 the most recent real-time, hourly, water level 13 data. 14 The water level on Southern Indian 15 Lake is different at all locations, at all times 16 because of wind, waves, barometric pressure 17 changes and hydraulic effects. The lake is not 18 flat and it is not at a constant level from one 19 point to the other. 20 Recognizing that variations in levels 21 do occur, several gauges at different locations 22 around the lake were established. Were there no 23 weather or hydraulic effects, these water level 24 gauges would all record exactly the same water 25 level because they are all tied to the same 6774 1 benchmark and the same data. 2 The benchmark referenced in the 3 license is submerged as we have been told, but its 4 location is known precisely and it is available 5 for survey purposes using scuba divers. However, 6 a more accessible benchmark above the high water 7 mark has been established on the same data nearby 8 for convenience. 9 MR. BEDFORD: Mr. Cormie, would you 10 tell us, please, with respect to the gauges that 11 are there at Southern Indian Lake, how Manitoba 12 Hydro determines the water level on that lake? 13 MR. CORMIE: As Southern Indian is a 14 very large lake, no single point water level 15 measurement represents the lake level. As a 16 result, Hydro uses the four Water Survey of Canada 17 gauges around the lake to determine the lake 18 level. 19 The gauges are located at the 20 community of South Indian Lake at gauge 06EC001 21 that CASIL has referenced and another location 22 called Opachuanau Lake at -- or near the Missi 23 Falls Control Structure and at another location 24 near South Bay. 25 For any particular day, Manitoba Hydro 6775 1 calculates an average from the available gauge 2 data. On each day, not all four gauges are 3 reporting. So whatever gauges are available on a 4 day, those data that are available are used to 5 calculate the average, but this average still 6 includes some residual weather effects and further 7 averaging is required. The accepted engineering 8 technique for eliminating these residual weather 9 effects is to use a moving mean, which is an 10 average level calculated over several days. On 11 Southern Indian Lake, Manitoba Hydro uses a 12 seven-day moving mean. Whereas on an another 13 lake, for example Lake Winnipeg, which has more 14 weather related effects, an 11-day moving mean is 15 more appropriate. 16 MR. BEDFORD: The Community 17 Association of South Indian Lake, Mr. Cormie, told 18 us on Tuesday that Manitoba Hydro has 19 frequently -- and I believe they said -- 20 "consistently violated" the elevation limits set 21 in the interim license for the Churchill River 22 Diversion, and they submitted in support of that 23 assertion, among other things, what has been 24 entered as Exhibit CASIL-1009, with some data, we 25 were told from a website maintained, I believe, by 6776 1 Canada Water Surveys. 2 Would you please respond to the 3 assertion made by the Community Association of 4 South Indian Lake that Manitoba Hydro has 5 frequently and consistently violated the interim 6 license for the Churchill River Diversion? 7 MR. CORMIE: I do not agree with 8 CASIL's contention because Manitoba Hydro 9 regulates Southern Indian Lake having used all 10 available gauge data with weather and hydraulic 11 effects considered. 12 CASIL's perspective as presented in 13 their Exhibit 1009 was based solely upon the water 14 level record of the single gauge 06EC001 at the 15 community, which has not been smooth for weather 16 effects. 17 Frequently, when the level of Southern 18 Indian Lake is near the licensed limit of 843, the 19 recorded levels at the community gauge may be 20 slightly below the level of 843 feet. This is as 21 a result of the hydraulic gradient in the water 22 level that exists between the main body of the 23 lake and the community because there is 30,000 24 cubic feet per second flowing through the 25 community and a slope is required as the water 6777 1 flows downhill towards this South Bay diversion 2 channel. 3 There have been times when -- however, 4 there have been times when the level of Southern 5 Indian Lake as determined by Manitoba Hydro is 6 outside the licensed elevations due to unusual and 7 unforeseeable circumstances, including 8 after-the-fact gauge adjustments by the Water 9 Survey of Canada and unforeseeable variations in 10 inflow, such as those caused by sudden rainstorms 11 or upstream reservoir operations. 12 Manitoba Hydro in response to these 13 unforeseeable events may delay or temperate its 14 corrective actions or maintain its operations as 15 status quo because of notice requirements and 16 public safety concerns, in spite of the fact that 17 the elevations are outside the licensed range. 18 But, Manitoba Hydro does not 19 intentionally deviate from the licensed limits 20 without discussion and authorization from the 21 Department of Water Stewardship. 22 MR. BEDFORD: Those are all the 23 questions that I have of Mr. Cormie. 24 I recognize this is an important 25 issue. Subject to time constraints I know the 6778 1 Commission has this afternoon, if anyone has 2 questions of Mr. Cormie on this subject, he is 3 certainly prepared to answer them. 4 MR. ABRA: I just have a couple 5 questions, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Farlinger wants 6 information on. 7 Mr. Cormie, when you talked about the 8 smoothing of the data in order to reach -- to 9 determine the minimum or maximums for the level 10 according to the AFP and the CRD, and you said you 11 would do that in order to compensate for wind and 12 wave action amongst other things, is that what is 13 known as wind elimination? 14 MR. CORMIE: Yes. The effect of 15 smoothing is to produce what is referred to as a 16 "wind-eliminated level". 17 MR. ABRA: Okay. So, the term "wind 18 eliminated" then, when we see that on records, 19 related to the data for South Indian Lake. When 20 it uses the expression "wind eliminated", it means 21 you have gone through that smoothing exercise to 22 compensate for wind and wave action? 23 MR. CORMIE: Right. And wind 24 eliminated is a catchall for barometric pressure 25 changes, wind effects, set up effects. A large 6779 1 Lake like South Indian Lake tends to slosh around 2 with time and it takes several days for it to 3 reach an equilibrium or a stable state. And 4 averaging out over several days is an accepted 5 technique for determining water levels on all the 6 major lakes in North America and that's what 7 Manitoba Hydro follows that same practise. 8 MR. ABRA: Now, in its evidence on 9 Tuesday I guess it was, as Mr. Bedford has told 10 you, CASIL brought with it charts that were taken 11 off a website related to -- that I guess you have 12 probably seen. The assertion was made that, in 13 effect, Hydro was in violation of the levels for 14 the maximum of 847.5 feet above sea level for a 15 period of -- I believe, the extreme period was 16 about three months. Are you saying that that data 17 simply isn't correct? 18 MR. CORMIE: Manitoba Hydro was not in 19 violation for a period of three months. 20 As I mentioned in my testimony, we are 21 in -- have been lower than the limits or higher 22 than the limits on occasion for several days at a 23 time because it was impractical to try and either 24 bring the level up quickly to the established 25 level without creating a public safety hazard or 6780 1 without causing extreme flood conditions on the 2 lower Churchill River. 3 The allegation that we have been 4 outside the range for months at a time is not 5 correct. 6 MR. ABRA: Okay. Now, CASIL, in its 7 evidence, also suggested that in the license 8 for -- in particular, as it relates to Missi 9 Falls, that the -- that there are no specific 10 flows that have to be -- there is no flows that 11 are specified in the license at Missi Falls, and 12 that really that it is left to Hydro's discretion 13 to determine what the flow should be. Now, is 14 that assertion correct? 15 MR. CORMIE: Clause 23 of our 16 Environment Act License says that we will regulate 17 Missi Falls so that the outflows from Missi Falls 18 are no lower than those which had occurred during 19 the period from 1986 to 1996. 20 So, Manitoba Hydro has to interpret 21 what that clause means. We did a engineering 22 study, reviewed the water regime that was 23 established at Missi Falls during that ten-year 24 period, and we established some -- we established 25 the six seasonal minimum discharge targets that 6781 1 considered that the plant was remotely operated, 2 that considered that we needed to build in a small 3 buffer to reflect the wind and water level 4 variations. We self-established those discharge 5 targets and we are following those discharge 6 targets in our operations. 7 MR. ABRA: One of the things that 8 CASIL asked the Commission to consider in making 9 its recommendations in any report that it may 10 issue is that the flows through Missi Falls should 11 be made more specific as far as the license is 12 concerned, which will ultimately be issued at some 13 point. I believe they are specified, for example, 14 for Notigi, are they not, or at least more 15 specific than they are for Missi Falls? 16 MR. CORMIE: The Notigi discharges are 17 less specific than they are for Missi Falls. 18 Missi establishes a minimum flow of 500 cubic feet 19 per second in the open water period and 1500 cubic 20 feet per second during the ice covered period. 21 For Notigi what they say is they will 22 regulate Notigi to maintain a weekly average 23 discharge of 34,000 cubic feet per second -- 24 MR. ABRA: Okay. 25 MR. CORMIE: -- and the point there is 6782 1 it is recognized that an average over the week is 2 fine. You could have 36,000 on one day and then 3 33,000, recognizing the variations occur hourly 4 and daily. At the end of the week, you should 5 average a weekly average. Whereas at Missi, they 6 don't specify a time limit. They just say this is 7 the minimum and you can imply from that it could 8 be instantaneous or a daily average or weekly 9 average. In the Environment Act License, it 10 doesn't specify the duration at all. 11 MR. ABRA: What I was -- I am sorry, 12 maybe I shouldn't have used Notigi as an example. 13 Specifically, what I was -- what I wanted to ask 14 you was whether or not Hydro would have any 15 problem with the license having more specific 16 flows in it, rather than it being left to the 17 discretion in the manner that you have described. 18 Would that create a difficulty if the flows were 19 made more specific than they are at present in the 20 license? 21 MR. CORMIE: As long as Manitoba Hydro 22 had the opportunity to review what was being 23 offered as a recommendation, I don't think we 24 would have any -- 25 MR. ABRA: It is not likely the 6783 1 Commission will make that recommendation. But, it 2 was one of the recommendations that CASIL 3 raised -- if you had a chance to read the evidence 4 yesterday -- I will read to you the quote -- 5 MR. CORMIE: My issue is if that is 6 within the CEC scope -- 7 MR. ABRA: Sorry -- page 6233 of the 8 evidence from two days ago. Miss Merrell-Ann 9 Phare, counsel for CASIL, made the comment between 10 lines 8 and 23: 11 "It is the same with the license 12 governing Missi Falls. It calls for 13 flows to be the same as were conducted 14 during a period of time, for 15 years 15 approximately, something like that. 16 It doesn't specify in the license what 17 those flows are. 18 So, how can you ever ensure compliance 19 with those flows?" 20 She goes on to say: 21 "Manitoba Hydro has stated that they 22 determine what the actual flow numbers 23 are and that there is no compliance or 24 follow-up to ensure that it is 25 actually an appropriate number, that 6784 1 the government has been involved in 2 setting that, that it is according to 3 criteria other than what Manitoba 4 Hydro sees as reasonable. Our 5 recommendations are to clarify some of 6 those clear ambiguities." 7 In essence, what she is saying in that 8 comment is what I understood you to say that it is 9 left to Hydro's discretion to decide what the 10 flows are and she is saying that CASIL is of the 11 view that they should be made more specific. 12 All I am asking is whether that would 13 create any difficulty for Hydro to have them made 14 more specific? 15 MR. CORMIE: That issue is probably 16 more appropriate for the finalization of the 17 Churchill River Diversion license and we have 18 talked about that. 19 The licenses themselves are not 20 complete and prescriptive in all situations. The 21 licenses are -- they need interpretation in their 22 implementation in all manners and that's why we 23 are in constant contact with our regulators, 24 whether it is under the Environment Act license or 25 with the Water Power Act license. The license is 6785 1 trying to lay down some relatively simple rules 2 for the operation of a relatively complex project 3 and operation. For every rule you will establish 4 will come along a situation that doesn't apply. 5 MR. ABRA: I understand. 6 MR. CORMIE: A good example of this is 7 the clause in the interim license that says if 8 Southern Indian Lake level were to rise above the 9 elevation 847 and a half, you shall go to maximum 10 discharge at Missi Falls. Well, opening the dam 11 at Missi Falls at the moment that the level goes 12 above 847 would result in drownings, tremendous 13 damage to the river downstream and it would be 14 irresponsible of the staff at Manitoba Hydro to 15 take a strict interpretation of the license. 16 So, the license is there to say that 17 these are the issues you need to be concerned 18 about. If it is not clear or if there is any 19 doubt or if it doesn't make sense, we need to 20 speak to the regulator in order to make sure that 21 Manitoba Hydro operates in a very responsive 22 manner. 23 So, we have a tremendous 24 responsibility as professionals, engineers and 25 water resource managers to look at the big picture 6786 1 and not just what it says in the license and to 2 use good engineering judgment and be responsible 3 operators of this facility. 4 Yes, we could be more prescriptive and 5 say it shall be a certain amount, but it still 6 leaves Manitoba Hydro responsible for doing the 7 right thing and not necessarily just what the 8 license prescribed. 9 We can clarify things and make it a 10 little bit more obvious to everyone else, but we 11 are not going to cover off all the situations. We 12 will still have to use our discretion and the 13 licenses will never be prescriptive and all 14 encompassing and we are going to have to make 15 judgments on what the license means and what is 16 the right thing to do. 17 MR. ABRA: So, having too many 18 specifications in the license or too narrow 19 specifications in the license would create 20 difficulty is what you're saying? 21 MR. CORMIE: Yes. There are days when 22 the flow at Missi Falls goes to 490 cubic feet per 23 second and the next day it is back up to 510 just 24 because of the wind. The average over the two 25 days is 500. Does that mean that on one day when 6787 1 it went down to 490 that we were in violation? 2 Well, technically, for that day we were. 3 But, in the context of the water 4 regime, what happened in that period from 1986 to 5 1996 when the water regime was established and 6 what the regulator intended for us to do. We are 7 doing exactly what was done in the past that 8 created that water regime. 9 So, we don't consider those minor 10 daily variations when there is an offset on the 11 next day to be not in compliance. You could make 12 it very much more specific. Would we be able to 13 operate 100 percent of the time? Not likely, 14 because it is a remote facility. We can't always 15 get in there when we want to. There are time 16 delays. But, I don't believe that there is any 17 adverse impacts created as a result of having that 18 margin around the 500 cubic feet per second. 19 As engineers, we look at the 20 significance of the numbers. They didn't write in 21 there 500.000 cubic feet per second. They put in 22 500 with no decimal points. It is a target and we 23 regulate to that target knowing that there will 24 moment-by-moment variations around that. But, 25 those are not of any consequence to anyone except 6788 1 if you were to take a legalistic, very specific 2 interpretation of that. 3 MR. ABRA: Okay. One final question 4 on a totally different area. It relates to the 5 operation -- 6 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Can I make a small 7 comment in response to the last question in case 8 it was misinterpreted. 9 We would suggest that even in law -- 10 although I am not a lawyer -- our understanding is 11 that when you have licenses like these, that 12 normal -- call it engineering practise or good 13 practise is utilized in the interpretation of 14 these. So, it is not that -- we think we are in 15 legal compliance as well as in practical 16 compliance. 17 MR. ABRA: You will recall that was an 18 issue that Ms. Phare and I dealt with the other 19 day, whether in fact the term "violation" is 20 indeed appropriate for this type of a situation. 21 Maybe at some point some judge will have to 22 determine that, but in the meantime the lawyers 23 will have to argue it, I guess. 24 MR. CORMIE: One more factor. Our 25 intention is to comply as fully as possible with 6789 1 the license. We have never had in the past or 2 will we ever in the future deliberately or 3 intentionally violate the license in order to 4 generate more electricity at one of the generating 5 stations. The law is the law, the license is the 6 license and we will do the best possible job in 7 trying to comply with the letter as well as the 8 intent of the license. 9 MR. ABRA: Okay. With respect to the 10 proposed operation of Wuskwatim itself, I believe 11 that the intention is to operate, in essence, 12 maximum energy, 16 hours a day, five days a week; 13 is that correct? 14 MR. CORMIE: The intention is to 15 operate the project to concentrate the energy in 16 those hours, if possible. If there is more energy 17 available, we will generate for 16 hours a day, 18 seven days a week. If there is still more water 19 available, we will operate for a longer period of 20 time at night. If there is less water available, 21 we will just concentrate the generation in the 22 hours of the day that have greatest value. Always 23 subject to the downstream constraint at Birchtree 24 that the water level fluctuations created by that 25 operation will be within the tolerance that has 6790 1 been established. 2 MR. ABRA: That's what I was going to 3 ask you. What are the intentions on Saturdays and 4 Sundays? 5 MR. CORMIE: To comply with the 6 tolerance that has been established. 7 MR. ABRA: And will that be a balanced 8 tolerance as well? In other words, would it be 9 running at balanced -- a generally balanced energy 10 level on Saturdays and Sundays as you are 11 intending to do Monday through Friday? 12 MR. CORMIE: It will be a daily 13 balance. The objective is to -- within the 14 constraint that has been established with regard 15 to water level fluctuations each and every day, 16 whether it is a Monday or Saturday, to maximize 17 the value of the generation while living with the 18 constraint that has been established for water 19 level fluctuations in the forebay and downstream. 20 MR. ABRA: Okay, that's fine, 21 Mr. Cormie, thank you very much for your help. 22 Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 24 MR. ABRA: That finishes my questions. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Right. Now, there is 6791 1 no questioning on these issues. 2 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: It was an 3 undertaking. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: It was an 5 undertaking -- 6 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: Maybe we should 7 clarify, the first piece was an undertaking and 8 then the second set of questions was redirect, 9 so... 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, I realize that. 11 MR. ABRA: Actually, what was 12 contemplated originally was that I would redirect 13 before Mr. Bedford, was the original -- that Hydro 14 would have the opportunity to go last. But, 15 Mr. Bedford and I agreed between ourselves just 16 before lunch that he would go first just in case 17 his redirect answered my questions, but they 18 didn't quite, so I had to ask some myself. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. 20 For CASIL, Mr. Dysart wanted to come here, there 21 will be one other opportunity when you make your 22 closing argument to do so and while I am talking 23 about closing argument -- 24 MR. ABRA: Did CASIL want to question 25 the undertaking? 6792 1 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, the 2 undertaking was in response to a CASIL question. 3 So, therefore, normally they would have an 4 opportunity to question on the undertaking. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: On the undertaking, 6 correct. 7 MR. GREWAR: And that's what I think 8 Mr. Cormie provided. Maybe that is what Leslie 9 Dysart was thinking. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Could be, I wasn't 11 sure. I should have checked. Mr. Dysart? 12 MR. L. DYSART: With my discussions 13 with Mr. Wojczynski earlier today, I had indicated 14 there would be an opportunity after the redirect 15 for cross-examination, but sorry for the 16 confusion. I think we will address our concerns 17 directly in our closing statements and thank you. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. While we 19 are on the issue of closing statements, the 20 members of the Commission panel have discussed 21 that today and have come to the conclusion, which 22 leads me to advise you that the registered groups 23 will have an opportunity during redirect -- they 24 will have a maximum amount of time of one hour -- 25 closing statements, I am sorry. I was leading off 6793 1 from the other word just used. And Manitoba Hydro 2 and NCN combined, to be used as they wish and how 3 they wish in the most efficient way they wish, 4 three hours. There will be no questions on the 5 closing statements. The panel members and only 6 the panel members will have the opportunity to 7 seek clarifications only. 8 We will ask and hereby are asking 9 Commission Secretary Mr. Grewar to so advise all 10 the registered groups of this. Thank you. 11 We will now pass on to the next -- 12 Mr. Bedford? 13 MR. BEDFORD: Before these three 14 gentlemen vacate those seats, there was a poor 15 copy of some documents that went in yesterday 16 regarding the Augmented Flow Program. I know 17 Mr. Wojczynski has clear copies and we can hand 18 them out at this time. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 20 MR. WOJCZYNSKI: What it was was the 21 undertaking I took yesterday. We were speaking 22 about the Augmented Flow Program approvals and I 23 had been asked for a copy of the most current 24 version. So, the one from May 14th, 2004 is what 25 we are handing out now. 6794 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 2 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, while we 3 are on the topic of undertakings and exhibit 4 numbers, if we could assign the response to the 5 CASIL question that Mr. Cormie has just presented 6 as MH/NCN-1044. 7 8 (EXHIBIT MH/NCN-1044: Response to the 9 CASIL's question by Mr. Cormie) 10 11 MR. GREWAR: Refresh my memory, 12 Mr. Bedford, this was already entered as an 13 exhibit? 14 MR. BEDFORD: Well, actually, I think 15 I was mistaken. We were asked for the current 16 copies and what went in was a poor copy of an 17 earlier year's exchange of correspondence of the 18 Augmented Flow Program. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: So, it is a new 20 document? 21 MR. BEDFORD: So, this is a new 22 document. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 24 MR. GREWAR: Okay, then we would 25 assign this new document as correspondence and 6795 1 various attached items, which I will list, because 2 there is more than one letter of correspondence as 3 MH/NCN-1045. That is the correspondence that has 4 just been entered on the Augmented Flow Program. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 6 7 (EXHIBIT MH/NCN-1045: Correspondence 8 on the Augmented Flow Program) 9 10 THE CHAIRMAN: I now call on the 11 representative of MKO to come forward and make 12 their presentation. 13 While we are waiting for a couple 14 seconds, this will be presentation by the Mathias 15 Colomb group and then followed by OPCN. 16 Mr. Grewar, will you proceed with the 17 swearing in. 18 MR. GREWAR: Gentlemen, could I ask 19 you each to state your name for the record. 20 MR. GARRIOCH: Sydney Garrioch, MKO 21 Grand Chief. With me is Mike Anderson, MKO's 22 Natural Resources secretary. 23 MR. GREWAR: Gentlemen, are you aware 24 that in Manitoba it is an offence to knowingly 25 mislead this Commission? 6796 1 MR. GARRIOCH: Yes. 2 MR. ANDERSON: I do, Mr. Grewar. 3 MR. GREWAR: Knowing that, do you 4 promise to tell just the truth in proceedings 5 before this Commission? 6 MR. GARRIOCH: Yes. 7 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, I do, Mr. Grewar. 8 9 DR. SYDNEY GARRIOCH and 10 MICHAEL ANDERSON: SWORN 11 12 MR. GARRIOCH: Good afternoon. My 13 name is Sydney Garrioch and I am representing MKO. 14 I would like to thank the Board for listening to 15 our presentation this afternoon. 16 The Manitoba Keewatinook Ininew 17 Okimowin represents the 53,000 Treaty First 18 Nations citizens of the 30 northern-most Manitoba 19 First Nations. The Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation 20 and the northern Manitoba First Nations who have 21 appeared before this Commission are affiliated the 22 MKO. 23 The combined homelands and the 24 traditional territories of the MKO First Nations 25 cover almost three quarters of the lands and 6797 1 waters of the Province of Manitoba and encompass 2 all the area most directly affected by proposals 3 for the Wuskwatim generation and transmission 4 projects. 5 The MKO First Nations entered into 6 Treaty Number 4 in 1874 and Treaty Number 5 7 between 1875 and 1910. Treaty Number 6 in 1876 8 and Treaty Number 10 between 1906 and 1908. 9 Our leaders as representatives of 10 sovereign nations participated in the treaty 11 negotiations with Her Majesty the Queen based on 12 recognition of our status as sovereign nations and 13 as the holders of the Aboriginal title to our 14 ancestral lands. 15 Our relationship with our ancestral 16 lands is reflected in our languages, culture, 17 traditions and practises. By entering into 18 treaties, our forefathers intended to provide for 19 continuing access to the resources of our 20 traditional territories in order to provide for 21 our continuing self-sufficiency. 22 The written record confirms that our 23 leaders would only enter into treaty when these 24 objectives were confirmed by the promises of the 25 treaty commissioners. Our oral histories say that 6798 1 the treaties provide for the sharing of our lands, 2 waters and resources between the First Nations and 3 the settlers entering our lands. 4 Today, the MKO organization is 5 represented by the treaty medal provided by Her 6 Majesty's Treaty Commissioners as a symbol of 7 sacred relationship that persists between our 8 nations and Her Majesty. 9 The Treaty Medal clearly shows the 10 Treaty Commissioner entering into First Nations 11 lands as a guest to negotiate and enter into 12 treaty, to meet with and make an agreement with 13 our leaders as representatives of the indigenous 14 governments. 15 The Treaty Medal represents our joint 16 commitment to nation-building with the objectives 17 of sharing, peace and goodwill and relationship 18 founded on principles of mutual faith, 19 recognition, honour and respect. 20 The land, waters and natural resources 21 of northern Manitoba represent the foundation of 22 the First Nations economy, through fishing, 23 trapping, hunting, the harvesting of wild rice and 24 other plants and berries, as well agriculture, 25 timber harvesting and tourism. These same lands 6799 1 and resources within the MKO region are also the 2 foundation of much of the wealth of Manitoba, as 3 represented by the mining, logging, hydropower 4 development that has taken place over the past 70 5 years. 6 The MKO First Nations say that the 7 transfer of treaty lands, waters and natural 8 resources from Her Majesty to Manitoba by the 9 Manitoba Natural Resources Transfer Act of 1930 is 10 contrary to the spirit, intent and terms of Treaty 11 Number 4, 5, 6 and 10. 12 The MKO First Nations also say that 13 the past developments often proceeded without our 14 consent and that our citizens were all too often 15 systematically excluded from training, employment 16 and contracting opportunities, as well from any 17 meaningful share of the wealth generated by these 18 developments. 19 Our close ties to our traditional and 20 lands and waters and the economic significance of 21 the hydroelectric and transmission developments in 22 northern Manitoba have linked together the futures 23 of MKO First Nations, the Province of Manitoba and 24 Manitoba Hydro. 25 All of the existing major 6800 1 hydroelectric stations and the most of the major 2 transmission systems of Manitoba Hydro are within 3 the MKO region. 4 The operations of Manitoba Hydro 5 affect almost every major watershed in the MKO 6 region, the Saskatchewan River, including the 7 Saskatchewan River Delta, the Loon River-Laurie 8 River system, the Churchill River, including 9 Southern Indian Lake, the Rat and Burntwood 10 Rivers, the Nelson River and Lake Winnipeg. 11 The facilities and operations of 12 Manitoba Hydro affect the rights, interests, 13 communities and lands of the MKO First Nations and 14 resulted in widespread and sometimes irreversible 15 environmental, social and economic effects to 16 waters, shorelines, fisheries, wildlife, 17 livelihoods and community well-being. 18 Several of the affected MKO First 19 Nations and their fishers have entered into 20 settlement, compensation and implementation 21 agreements with Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba. Some 22 of these arrangements include Canada as a party. 23 Some MKO First Nations and their 24 resource harvesters have yet to conclude any 25 settlement arrangement to address and reconcile 6801 1 Hydro development impacts. These includes the Fox 2 Lake Cree Nation, the Mathias Colomb Cree Nation, 3 and the Granville Lake First Nation. Others, such 4 as the Barren Lands First Nation, the Mathias 5 Colomb Cree Nation and their fishers, have been 6 impacted more than 60 years by developments in 7 Saskatchewan that regulate the flow of the 8 Churchill River in Southern Indian Lake. 9 MKO participated in the 1984 National 10 Energy Board hearings regarding the Limestone 11 project and before the joint federal-provincial 12 panel considering the formerly proposed Conawapa 13 development. 14 The following principles summarizes 15 MKO's conditional support-in-principle as 16 presented in those proceedings and would also 17 apply to future developments: 18 MKO recognises the sovereign right of 19 each MKO First Nation to determine 20 their own future and to make decisions 21 regard their traditional lands. 22 23 MKO will seek to ensure a high 24 standard of protection of the 25 Aboriginal and treaty rights of MKO 6802 1 citizens, including application of the 2 Section 35 process, the implementation 3 of agreements and the resolution of 4 outstanding claims. 5 Point number 3: MKO seeks to ensure 6 high standards for environmental review, 7 environmental assessment and mitigation of the 8 project impacts. 9 Point number 4: MKO will seek to 10 ensure a high standard of socioeconomic benefits 11 and resource equity for MKO citizens. 12 In terms of the proposals for the 13 Wuskwatim hydroelectric and transmission projects, 14 MKO is monitoring these proceedings and maintains 15 a public registry on the project proposals for the 16 benefit of our citizens. MKO has also discussed 17 these proposals. 18 It is MKO's understanding that the 19 citizens of NCN will have a further opportunity to 20 express their vision for the future of their 21 community and their opinion of the final project 22 and business arrangements in a democratic 23 referendum and community ratification process. It 24 is also MKO's understanding that NCN citizens will 25 be able to consider the information presented in 6803 1 these proceedings in arriving at their decision. 2 Based on the principles I have 3 discussed, MKO supports the Nisichawayasihk Cree 4 Nation in their decision regarding the Wuskwatim 5 hydroelectric and transmission projects. 6 MKO appreciates NCN's interest in 7 securing an equity interest of any future 8 hydroelectric developments on a developed waterway 9 within the NCN resource area as part of their 10 long-term economic strategy, particularly in light 11 of their adverse environmental effects arising 12 from the existing Churchill River Diversion 13 projects. 14 MKO also appreciates NCN's interest in 15 minimizing future adverse environmental effects by 16 working to influence the size of all future 17 developments along the developed waterway between 18 Notigi and Manasan. For example, NCN's insistence 19 on the low-head Wuskwatim development at 20 Taskinigup Falls will effectively set aside 21 earlier plans by Manitoba Hydro for a higher 22 elevation development that would have affected the 23 waterways, lands and environment upstream between 24 the Wuskwatim project site and Early Morning 25 Rapids, including Wuskwatim Lake. 6804 1 MKO also acknowledges NCN's effort to 2 incorporate traditional knowledge and to ensure 3 the involvement of NCN citizens in project 4 planning and in the assessment of potential 5 adverse environmental effects. 6 In respect of the protection of the 7 Aboriginal and Treaty rights of MKO citizens, in 8 order for this Commission to uphold the honour of 9 the Crown in their role as advisers to Government, 10 MKO recommends that the following basic tests and 11 measurements be applied by this Commission and its 12 examination of the proposed Wuskwatim generation 13 and transmission projects. 14 The first check mark: Do the 15 Wuskwatim project proposals reflect and preserve 16 the spirit, intent and the letter of commitment 17 made by the Treaty signatories in respect of 18 lands, waters and natural resources? 19 Check number 2: Will authorization by 20 Government of any aspects of the Wuskwatim project 21 proposals result in an infringement of the 22 exercise of the Aboriginal and Treaty rights of 23 MKO citizens? 24 Check number 3: If the Commission 25 determines that an infringement of the exercise of 6805 1 Aboriginal and Treaty rights will occur as a 2 result of the Wuskwatim project proposals, has 3 Government justified the infringement? 4 Check number 4: If the Commission 5 determines that Government has justified an 6 infringement of the exercise of the right and that 7 the nature of the infringement amounts to an 8 expropriation of the right is compensation 9 available? 10 MKO also requests that this Commission 11 make the following recommendation: That a process 12 be established by Manitoba and Canada in order to 13 address and resolve all unresolved matters 14 relating to existing hydroelectric and 15 transmission developments in northern Manitoba. 16 The Aboriginal title of the MKO First 17 Nation and the terms of Treaty provide the 18 foundation for our participation and influence in 19 the natural resources economy of northern 20 Manitoba. 21 Our joint commitment to nation 22 building is not frozen at one moment in history, 23 but must be understood in its contemporary form as 24 events take place and as our respective nations 25 grow. 6806 1 Ultimately, the difference between 2 poverty and prosperity will be determined by the 3 extent to which the exercise of the Aboriginal and 4 Treaty rights of the MKO First Nations are 5 protected from infringement and the extent to 6 which MKO First Nations directly control, 7 participate in and benefit from all resource 8 developments within our traditional lands. Ekosi. 9 Thank you. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, 11 Mr. Garrioch. 12 Are there questions? I think it is 13 very clear to me what you have to say and I 14 suspect very clear to everyone here. 15 I see no questions. I want to thank 16 you for taking the time to make your views known 17 through this presentation. Thank you again. 18 MR. GARRIOCH: Thank you. 19 MR. MAYER: I think we can also 20 apologize for delaying you on a number of 21 different occasions. Please accept our apologies 22 for that. 23 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 24 enter then as Exhibit OTH-1035, the presentation 25 submitted by MKO, by Dr. Sydney Garrioch, May 27, 6807 1 2004; OTH-1035. 2 3 (EXHIBIT OTH-1035: Presentation 4 submitted by MKO, Dr. Sydney 5 Garrioch, May 27, 2004) 6 7 THE CHAIRMAN: I call upon the 8 representatives -- the representative or 9 representatives of Mathias Colomb. 10 Gentlemen, would you come forward, 11 please? Are they part of the presentation or are 12 you alone? Are there other gentlemen joining you? 13 MR. SINCLAIR: No. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, all right. Sir, 15 Mr. Grewar will proceed with swearing in. 16 MR. GREWAR: Sir, will you please 17 state your name for the record? 18 MR. SINCLAIR: Peter Sinclair, 19 Pukatawagan, Manitoba. 20 MR. GREWAR: Sir, are you aware that 21 in Manitoba it is an offence to knowingly mislead 22 this Commission? 23 MR. SINCLAIR: No, I didn't know, but 24 now I know. 25 MR. GREWAR: Knowing that then, sir, 6808 1 do you promise to tell just the truth in 2 proceedings before this Commission? 3 MR. SINCLAIR: Yes. 4 5 PETER SINCLAIR: SWORN 6 7 THE CHAIRMAN: Sir, are you presenting 8 on behalf the Pukatawagan Fishermen's Association, 9 or Mathias Colomb Band or both? 10 MR. SINCLAIR: Pukatawagan Fishermen's 11 Association. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. You may 13 proceed. 14 MR. SINCLAIR: I am just going to read 15 the letter here I wrote to four Ministers of the 16 Province. It is dated February 6th, 2004, to Stan 17 Struthers, Oscar Lathlin, Steve Ashton and Tim 18 Sale. It is request to a meeting for Churchill 19 water management issues. It goes on to say. 20 "I am writing on behalf the 21 Pukatawagan Fishermen's Association to 22 request a meeting to discuss water 23 management, fisheries management and 24 outstanding issues related to the 25 construction and operation of the 6809 1 Island Falls Generating Station. 2 Pukatawagan Fishermen's Association 3 represents 175 licensed commercial 4 fisherman, and 125 additional persons 5 associated with the Churchill River 6 commercial fishery between the 7 Manitoba-Saskatchewan boundary and 8 Leaf Rapids, Manitoba. These fishers 9 and allied workers are members of the 10 Mathias Colomb Cree Nation and are 11 resident at Pukatawagan, Manitoba. 12 13 The PFA, Pukatawagan Fishermen's 14 Association, has viewed with interest 15 several recent Provincial initiatives. 16 1. The establishment by Manitoba of a 17 special Cabinet position for water 18 stewardship. 19 2. Throne Speech commitments 20 regarding water stewardship and water 21 management. 22 3. The proposal by Minister Ashton 23 and Minister Struthers to adopt a 24 national water strategy. 25 As you may be aware, the fishery 6810 1 relied upon by members of the 2 Pukatawagan Fishermen's Association 3 has been adversely affected by the 4 operation of the Island Falls 5 Generating Station. It is important 6 to note that the Saskatchewan Power 7 Corporation does not possess 8 authorization under Manitoba statutes 9 and regulations to use, store, and 10 regulate Manitoba waters. As well, no 11 water regime has been imposed by 12 Manitoba on SaskPower's operations to 13 mitigate these effects and provide for 14 fisheries, navigation, potable water 15 supplies and other uses. Further, no 16 settlement or compensation agreement 17 has been arrived at by SaskPower and 18 Pukatawagan Fishermen's Association or 19 with Pukatawagan Fishermen's 20 Association members through a 21 settlement within any other party. 22 The Island Falls Generating Station 23 has been in operation since 1927 and 24 the related Whitesand Dam Control 25 Structure at the outlet of Reindeer 6811 1 Lake has been in place since 1938." 2 The Pukatawagan Fishermen's 3 Association is aware that these issues 4 have been presented by Manitoba, by 5 representatives of Chief and Council 6 of Mathias Colomb Cree Nation on 7 several occasions. Recently the 8 Mathias Colomb Cree Nation has 9 authorized, by Band Council 10 Resolution, the Pukatawagan 11 Fishermen's Association to 12 independently pursue resolution of 13 these issues as they affect the 14 Pukatawagan Fishermen's Association. 15 A copy of the BCR is attached to this 16 letter. 17 The Pukatawagan Fishermen's 18 Association endorses in principle 19 Water Regime Management option C. 20 'Management of Water Regime to 21 Multiple Objectives' of the proposal 22 for Modified Water Regime Management 23 of Churchill River between Island 24 Falls and Grandville Falls and 25 Reindeer Lake, as presented to 6812 1 Minister Lathlin on February 22, 2001. 2 (Copy attached.) In summary, the 3 modified water regime proposes 4 establishing terms and conditions in 5 both Manitoba and Saskatchewan for the 6 operation of the SaskPower's Island 7 Falls and Whitesand facilities in a 8 manner that provides for near-natural 9 flow conditions. As noted in the 10 proposal, the loss of generation at 11 SaskPower's 95 MW Island Falls 12 facility would be an average of only 13 3% annually. It is important to note 14 that the 1975 Saskatchewan-Manitoba- 15 Canada Churchill River Study (the 16 Missinipe Probe) arrived at the same 17 conclusion. 18 In 2004, it is no longer acceptable to 19 impose mitigable, adverse effects of 20 fisheries, wildlife and First Nations 21 people for a minimal power benefit. 22 The Pukatawagan Fishermen's 23 Association would like to secure the 24 support of the Manitoba Government 25 toward implementing the Proposal for 6813 1 Modified Water Regime Management in 2 cooperation with the Saskatchewan 3 Water Corporation, SaskPower and 4 Manitoba Hydro. It is important that 5 the Pukatawagan Fishermen's 6 Association support of Manitoba and 7 Manitoba Hydro prior to initiating 8 discussions with SaskPower in respect 9 of the Proposal for Modified Water 10 Regime Management and related matters. 11 Therefore, we request a meeting 12 between our representatives and 13 yourselves at your earliest 14 convenience." 15 And so forth. 16 Anyway, what goes it goes on to say is 17 this, that we have a letter from Bob Brennan to 18 the then Chief Shirley Castel and -- Chief Archie 19 Halkett from Barren Lands Band and Chief Shirley 20 Castel at that time, Mathias Colomb Cree Nation. 21 It says: 22 "Dear Chiefs:..." 23 That is Bob Brennan's letter to these Chiefs: 24 "Further to our meeting of September 25 4, 2002, I am now able to report on 6814 1 the possibility of accommodating 2 different water flows from 3 Saskatchewan. Manitoba Hydro has 4 designed our system in a manner that 5 is compatible with the current mode of 6 regulation of Reindeer lake. 7 Returning to Reindeer lake to a state 8 of nature will affect both operations 9 of Manitoba Hydro and downstream 10 Manitoba water regimes affecting all 11 communities downstream of Reindeer 12 Lake. 13 As a 'state of nature' course of 14 action is not appropriate for 15 Manitoba, we encourage you to explore 16 other alternatives directly with 17 SaskPower. 18 We would be pleased to introduce you 19 to appropriate SaskPower personnel, 20 but we caution, again, that we cannot 21 support a 'state of nature' option." 22 Then there is a statement of common 23 objective which was signed 1997. 24 "The undersigned agree upon the 25 following common objective after 6815 1 meeting in Regina, Saskatchewan, May 2 1, 1998 to discuss a water management 3 regime for the Reindeer Lake, Reindeer 4 River, Churchill River system, in 5 accordance with articles 5 and 6 of 6 the terms of reference attached to the 7 February 12, 1997 negotiating 8 agreement: 9 That SaskPower facilities and the 10 water regime be properly licensed and 11 SaskPower obtain the proper land use 12 authorization in order to operate 13 based on a plan developed to serve the 14 multiple water regime management 15 objective of all parties, and 16 utilizing a water management process 17 accepted by all parties." 18 It is signed by a councillor from 19 Pukatawagan, Mathias Sinclair, and Barren Lands 20 First Nation, Roy Bighitty, who was Chief at that 21 time, and Leuellen Matthews of the Saskatchewan 22 Power Corporation, and Edwin McPhillips, for the 23 Province of Manitoba, I couldn't read his name, he 24 is Merlin somebody. For Saskatchewan Water 25 Corporation, again, I can't read his name. Too 6816 1 fancy for me, fancy writing. 2 Anyway, not to take too much time 3 here, the information is here for the Commission 4 to look at, but our main concern is this, the 5 fishermen from Pukatawagan and other people, other 6 resource users from Pukatawagan are of the opinion 7 that nobody wants to help. We reported this 8 letter to Saskatchewan, to the Province of 9 Manitoba, and Manitoba Hydro to -- is this what 10 Manitoba does to its citizens, just ignore them, 11 don't help them out where they can? There are a 12 lot of complaints, a lot of questions asked by the 13 lot of people in Pukatawagan, why isn't the 14 Province doing something about the situation we 15 are in? Of course, SaskPower is eons away from 16 us, and money as well, we don't have -- well, we 17 are working on it, to tell you the truth, working 18 on finding monies to talk to SaskPower to further 19 this matter to where we are going to be headed, I 20 suppose. 21 Is there any questions? 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mayer. 23 MR. MAYER: Mr. Sinclair, we don't 24 have any control over Manitoba Hydro, never mind 25 over SaskPower. 6817 1 MR. SINCLAIR: I understand that, Bob. 2 MR. MAYER: It is my understanding 3 that all of the facilities being discussed here 4 and shown on the map are in the Province of 5 Saskatchewan? 6 MR. SINCLAIR: Yes. 7 MR. MAYER: Our authorization at this 8 point is to make recommendations to the Minister 9 with respect to the Wuskwatim projects, the 10 generation and transmission projects. And I know 11 you understand that because you were at the 12 participant assistance committee meetings. 13 What is it you want from us? 14 MR. SINCLAIR: Actually, Manitoba 15 Hydro -- we wanted some answers from Manitoba 16 Hydro regarding Bob Brennan's letter, and whether 17 Manitoba Hydro is willing to support the 18 Pukatawagan Fishermen's Association, try to 19 correct the situation we have in Pukatawagan, in 20 conjunction with, of course, SaskPower, Manitoba 21 Hydro, how they work hand-in-hand, I don't really 22 have an idea how they do that, but they do work 23 hand-in-hand for sure. I was hoping I could maybe 24 talk to somebody from Hydro to explain their 25 cause, maybe Mike will help me out a bit. 6818 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sinclair, what is 2 the actual problem that the SaskPower creates to 3 the Pukatawagan fishermen currently through the 4 Reindeer Lake controls which they have? What 5 results -- what are the problematic results for 6 the Pukatawagan fishermen? 7 MR. SINCLAIR: Okay. Throughout the 8 years since 1927, what has happened is that 9 SaskPower has destroyed the natural flow of the 10 water, the river system, which means that we have 11 water at times and at times we don't have any 12 water, completely no water, and at times we have 13 floods. And it affects the spawning grounds of 14 the fish and other animal life, and also affects 15 the residents. See requirements where the 16 resource users are affected, some have died 17 because of SaskPower releasing water on top of the 18 ice without them knowing what is going on, and a 19 whole pile of other complaints that we have. 20 But I wasn't quite sure whether I was 21 allowed to make further my story here, at one 22 point that lady told me I had only 15 minutes, so 23 I don't know. But that's how it affects us. It 24 affects us in every which way water affects a 25 person in a bad way. Southern floods, for 6819 1 instance, is a good example of what happens to us. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: I notice you wrote your 3 letter to four different Ministers. Did you get a 4 reply from one of them? 5 MR. SINCLAIR: Yes, we did. 6 THE CHAIRMAN: Was there a response 7 similar or the same as Mr. Brennan's response? 8 MR. SINCLAIR: No, not yet, no. Maybe 9 Michael can carry on with the story for a second. 10 MR. ANDERSON: I am prepared to 11 actually be sworn with the witness if you wish. 12 Grand Chief Garrioch has just -- 13 THE CHAIRMAN: You were sworn a while 14 ago. 15 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you. Grand Chief 16 Garrioch has suggested that if the Pukatawagan 17 Fishermen's Association would benefit from any 18 information we might be able to provide, then I am 19 instructed to do so. 20 We have worked on this project for 21 over 13 years, so we have a fair bit of 22 information on it, if it is assistance to the 23 Commission. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: We are just trying to 25 get some clarification. I personally, and as 6820 1 expressed by Mr. Mayer, find it difficult to 2 relate this to the scope of the project we are in. 3 Just as a matter of interest, I guess, I asked the 4 question. 5 MR. ANDERSON: If I might summarize, 6 and with respect, if I get this wrong, Peter, 7 please correct me. 8 The essential issue is that it is 9 understood that the flows of the Churchill River 10 at Pukatawagan, Manitoba, in extremely round 11 numbers, approximately 50 percent of the flow 12 originates at Reindeer Lake. So, the regulation 13 at Reindeer Lake -- this is on an annual basis and 14 very round numbers, Mr. Chair. So the regulation 15 of Reindeer Lake by the Whitesand Control 16 Structure substantially influences water levels in 17 Manitoba at Pukatawagan. The flows continue on 18 down the Churchill River, of course, into Southern 19 Indian Lake, and then from the diversion and 20 control structures through Notigi into the 21 generation system. 22 The fishermen have indicated an 23 interest some time ago to government to seek their 24 assistance in modifying the flows, entering 25 Manitoba on the Churchill River in terms of their 6821 1 seasonality to restore the river's levels and flow 2 volumes to levels that are much more similar to 3 emulate nature. 4 So, in terms of planning for the flows 5 of waters on the Churchill, enhanced through the 6 diversion route into the generating facilities, 7 the proposal, as I understand it of the fishers 8 affects Manitoba Hydro's operations. And evidence 9 of that, to the extent that it is evidence, 10 appears in Mr. Brennan's letter, indicating that 11 they do see a linkage between the proposal of the 12 fishers and their operations. 13 Now, I can't speak to Mr. Brennan's 14 letter because I didn't write it, but it is clear 15 that that letter, as I understand, was produced 16 after a meeting that was held between the fishers, 17 their First Nations representatives in government, 18 with a request to review the water regime 19 proposal. 20 I might add, without going into 21 length, Mr. Chair, that two successive governments 22 have expressed interest in this. There is 23 correspondence originating with former Premier 24 Filmon in 1990 pledging support for these First 25 Nations. There was a round of litigation that 6822 1 went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada on 2 preliminary issues, that is specifically whether 3 Saskatchewan would require licenses to operate to 4 affect the flows of water in Manitoba, and to 5 flood lands. There is approximately 10,000 acres 6 of land flooded at Reindeer Lake. 7 There was no decision on the case, but 8 the Supreme Court denied further leave to appeal 9 to the SaskPower Corporation, that is, they 10 determined it was a live issue that deserved to be 11 heard. So that's where it sits. 12 The Government of Manitoba, it is 13 Merlin Shoesmith that signed the statement of 14 common intent, who, if I recall correctly, was 15 Assistant Deputy Minister of Natural Resources at 16 the time. The meeting at Saskatchewan was also 17 attended by Mr. Grant Baker, who was director of 18 the Policy Coordination Branch and the commitment 19 of the Crown was to, at that time, stand shoulder 20 to shoulder literally, that was the statement made 21 by Mr. Enns, with these communities in resolving 22 their concerns regarding the regulation of water 23 and the impacts of them. 24 So, that's the summary, essentially, 25 that they have indicated an interest in the 6823 1 regulation of Churchill flows and they had wanted, 2 as I understand it, to bring it to your attention. 3 That's the story as I understand it. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mayer? 5 MR. MAYER: I would love to have the 6 authority to overrule the Supreme Court of Canada 7 sometimes. I am not sure I want to get into this. 8 Peter, I guess we should tell you in 9 case you were not here, MKO, as one of its 10 recommendations, has asked this Commission to 11 recommend to the Minister that we provide or that 12 a mechanism be established to deal with all past 13 concerns raised by, as a result of Hydro projects. 14 In light of the fact that this water eventually 15 comes up coming through the Burntwood River as a 16 result of the Churchill River Diversion, I suppose 17 on a stretch your concern could be addressed in 18 that way, in as much as at least three of the 19 Commissioners on this panel -- the three at this 20 end, we just haven't had a chance to talk to the 21 other two yet -- are inclined to make that 22 recommendation to the Minister. I am sure -- I am 23 not sure there is a whole lot else we can do. 24 I think you will see that 25 recommendation go to the Minister in dealing with 6824 1 issues that have not as yet been completed by 2 Hydro. 3 We have noted with much interest that 4 Hydro has, in fact, gone back and concluded 5 settlements recently with Easterville. We now 6 hear that Moose Lake is very, very close to 7 settlement; Fox Lake as well. 8 So, I suppose we can offer you some 9 hope and we will make some recommendation to the 10 Minister, but I think we have to tell you that we 11 have no technical jurisdiction over the area. 12 Thank you for coming. 13 MR. SARGEANT: Two members at this end 14 of the table, by separate decision, came to the 15 same conclusion. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: Before you did. 17 MR. MAYER: Let's not go there. 18 THE CHAIRMAN: We thank you, 19 Mr. Sinclair, for making your presentation and 20 views known to us. 21 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chair, 22 for your patience in allowing MKO to assist the 23 Pukatawagan Fishermen's Association. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. 25 MR. SINCLAIR: One question -- when do 6825 1 you think this process will take place? 2 THE CHAIRMAN: As soon as we can. 3 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 4 enter as exhibit OTH-1036 the presentation, 5 documentation, various, as provided by Peter 6 Sinclair on behalf of the Pukatawagan Fishermen's 7 Association, OTH-1036. Correction, OTH -- no 8 that's correct. Thank you. 9 10 (EXHIBIT OTH-1O36: Presentation by 11 Peter Sinclair on behalf of the 12 Pukatawagan Fishermen's Association) 13 14 THE CHAIRMAN: I now call upon the 15 representative of OPCN. 16 Mr. Baker, to make use of the time 17 here, I just wish to ask you, I see you have a 18 very lengthy presentation. Was it your intent to 19 go through this entire presentation? 20 MR. BAKER: Yes. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: All right. I will ask 22 you to present at a very reasonable rate of 23 reading so that our record clerk can take all the 24 information, and also it may be that I will want 25 to interrupt you at some time so we have a break 6826 1 and we will carry on after. 2 MR. BAKER: Just a question, 3 Mr. Chairman. 4 I want to thank you for taking note of 5 the length of the presentation that is before the 6 Commission and also the audience and the 7 proponents. I also wish that I deliver the full 8 message today. 9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. It is just that 10 it probably -- that is going to probably take a 11 fair length of time and I just want to indicate 12 that somewhere during that presentation, we may 13 want to break for a few minutes. If you find a 14 convenient spot somewhere half way, so indicate. 15 If not, maybe I will interrupt you and we will 16 just take a break at that point. 17 MR. BAKER: I appreciate that. Thank 18 you. 19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Grewar. 20 MR. GREWAR: Could you please state 21 your name for the record, sir? 22 MR. BAKER: My name is Chris Baker. 23 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Baker, are you aware 24 that it is an offence in Manitoba to knowingly 25 mislead this Commission? 6827 1 MR. BAKER: Yes, I do. 2 MR. GREWAR: Do you promise to tell 3 just the truth in proceedings before this 4 Commission? 5 MR. BAKER: Yes, I will. 6 MR. GREWAR: Thank you, sir. 7 8 MR. BAKER: SWORN 9 10 THE CHAIRMAN: You may proceed. 11 MR. BAKER: Thank you. 12 Good afternoon. My name is Chris 13 Baker, and I am the officially elected Headman of 14 the O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation in South Indian 15 Lake. 16 First, let me recognize the 17 Nisichawayasihk Cree sovereignty within their own 18 traditional lands, which are today known as their 19 Resource Management Area. The Chief and Council 20 have been working many long years on a proposed 21 business partnership with Manitoba Hydro regarding 22 the development of the Wuskwatim Generating 23 Station and I congratulate them. I am certain 24 they have the best interests of their Nelson House 25 community members at heart when they pursue all of 6828 1 their undertakings and business ventures. 2 The Nisichawayasihk Cree make 3 decisions that they feel are best for their Nelson 4 House people and their future economy and the 5 O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation respects that. It is 6 not an easy decision to propose to your community 7 that they become partners with the same 8 Corporation that developed the Churchill River 9 Diversion, the project that had such devastating 10 effects on their people and, in fact, Cree Nation 11 people throughout Northern Manitoba. Ultimately, 12 they decide to do what they feel is best for their 13 people in Nelson House and I do the same for the 14 O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree in South Indian Lake. 15 The Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation at 16 Nelson House are involved in this process via 17 their Future Development relationship with 18 Manitoba Hydro that was confirmed in Article 8 of 19 their 1996 NFA Comprehensive Implementation 20 Agreement. The O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree do not yet 21 have a similar relationship with Manitoba Hydro 22 respecting future Hydro developments. 23 Why doesn't the Cree Nation on the 24 banks of South Indian Lake have a relationship 25 with Manitoba Hydro? The concept seems to run 6829 1 counter to Manitoba Hydro's new objective of 2 Hydro-First Nation partnerships that they 3 explained at these CEC hearings many times. Well, 4 primarily it is because there are many unaddressed 5 matters relating to past projects that need 6 attention before the O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree at 7 South Indian Lake can possibly trust Manitoba 8 Hydro enough to talk about the future. 9 As we have told you during 10 cross-examination, the O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree 11 Nation has been recognized by every First Nation 12 in Canada, and specifically by the Nisichawayasihk 13 Cree. The Nisichawayasihk Cree has been very 14 supportive of our formal independent recognition 15 by Canada. Over the years, the Nisichawayasihk 16 Cree Nation have held positive community votes, 17 they have petitioned the minister of Indian 18 Affairs, they have moved resolutions at MKO and 19 AMC, they have signed memorandums of 20 understanding, they have attended our negotiation 21 meetings, they have approved and administered 22 federal funding for the Headman position to 23 specifically work on recognition and our 24 independent land selection study. They have also 25 passed Council resolutions confirming treaty land 6830 1 entitlement selections on behalf of the 2 O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation and confirming a 3 division of the treaty lands, assets, and trusts. 4 They also ensured that their 1996 5 agreement included 2000 acres of reserve land 6 credit for the O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree in South 7 Indian lake. The next step is for them to confirm 8 these arrangements in a legally binding form to 9 facilitate recognition by Canada. 10 While we respect the NCN right of 11 self-government, their sovereignty and their right 12 to decide what is best for their future, no one's 13 sovereignty should negatively impact on another. 14 On March 25th, Chief Primrose 15 addressed this Commission in The Pas. He 16 referenced the pent-up hurt, anger and mistrust 17 over the CRD that he had heard at these hearings. 18 He also asked people to listen closely to the 19 voices of the people who have not been in control 20 of their own lives, people who have had things 21 done to them and who have not had an opportunity 22 to do for themselves in their own way. Chief 23 Primrose's comments accurately describe the 24 O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation people at South 25 Indian Lake. The O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation 6831 1 believes that we are best able to represent and 2 protect our interests. 3 With all due respect, Chief Primrose 4 is not the Chief of South Indian Lake and he does 5 not make plans for our community or speak for our 6 people. The duly elected Headman speaks on behalf 7 of the Treaty people in South Indian Lake. 8 We maintain our own rights of 9 self-determination, our own sovereignty and our 10 own right to decide what is best for the future of 11 our community, our people and our traditional 12 lands. 13 Mr. Osler confirmed in his testimony 14 that different communities experience effects 15 differently. The people of South Indian Lake 16 voted 81 percent against the Wuskwatim AIP as 17 clear evidence of this. This is markedly 18 different than the AIP voting results in Nelson 19 House because we have unique interests and will be 20 affected differently. Mr. Osler testified that 21 the pathways of effects will be different. 22 Therefore, while we respect the rights 23 of the Nisichawayasihk Cree to pursue their 24 independent goals within their resource area, that 25 is quite different from speaking for the 6832 1 O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree and representing our 2 interests. 3 The Chief and Council of the 4 Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation naturally prioritize 5 their own community interests in Nelson House. 6 While we respect Nisichawayasihk's rights, we feel 7 it is critical and respectful that the rights, 8 interests, economies, lands, environments, and 9 cultures of all other First Nations, Metis and 10 other communities are not adversely affected by 11 projects they pursue with their proposed Manitoba 12 Hydro partners. We still live with the effects of 13 Manitoba Hydro's past projects that were imposed 14 on us and are sensitive to this. What was done 15 was not right and should never be repeated. The 16 proponent survey confirmed that "fully two-thirds, 17 67 percent of South Indian Lake respondents are 18 distrustful of Manitoba Hydro, with nearly half, 19 49 percent, completely distrusting the Provincial 20 Crown Corporation." 21 The O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation is 22 very concerned with the effects of Wuskwatim on 23 our unique resource areas, our lives, our culture 24 our community, our economy and our Treaty and 25 Aboriginal rights. 6833 1 We are also concerned that the EIS has 2 so poorly described our socioeconomic, 3 environmental, and cultural setting, and so 4 minimally considered the effects of the proposed 5 project on our lives, society, economy, 6 environment, and culture. In this respect, not 7 much has changed since Manitoba Hydro developed 8 the CRD. Manitoba Hydro has discussed a new way 9 of doing business throughout these hearings, but I 10 do not feel this new approach in my heart. For 11 the O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree, it feels like the same 12 old way of doing business. We feel the same 13 frustrations as our mothers and fathers felt. 14 These are the matters of concern to the 15 O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree that I would like to present 16 to you in detail today. 17 In order for the Clean Environment 18 Commission to meet its mandate in this regard, we 19 feel strongly that adequate baselines need to be 20 established, specific traditional knowledge from 21 each community potentially affected must be 22 incorporated, and proper monitoring and mitigation 23 implemented. 24 The CEC hearing mandate is to: 25 6834 1 Consider potential environmental, 2 socioeconomic and cultural effects 3 from the construction and operation of 4 the projects. 5 6 Give consideration to environmental, 7 socioeconomic and cultural effects. 8 9 Consider the EIS and public concerns 10 with regard to the potential 11 environmental, socioeconomic and 12 cultural effects. 13 14 Recommend on if an Environment Act 15 license should be granted, and if 16 positive, propose measures to mitigate 17 any adverse environmental, 18 socioeconomic, and cultural effects. 19 20 Propose measures to manage residual 21 adverse effects, including future 22 monitoring and research as required. 23 24 In volume 8 of the EIS, entitled 25 "Socioeconomic Environment" on page 8-1, it 6835 1 states: 2 "Socioeconomic studies consider 3 people, their lifestyles, and their 4 communities. In so doing, they take 5 into account the array of interrelated 6 factors that contribute to the social 7 and economic welfare of the 8 individuals, families, and 9 communities. 10 Such factors include: The ways people 11 cope with life through their economy, 12 social systems, and cultural values, 13 and, the ways people use their natural 14 environmental for subsistence, 15 recreation, spiritual activities and 16 cultural activities." 17 On page 8-2 it goes on to say: 18 "How socioeconomic effects are 19 experienced differs for individuals, 20 families, and communities, and varies 21 with the degree to which the people 22 are connected to the direct or 23 indirect pathways of change from the 24 project. Socioeconomic effects can 25 also be affected by personal, family 6836 1 and community perspectives about the 2 current situations, their goals and 3 aspirations, and how the project 4 affects their vision for the future." 5 We agree with Mr. Osler that the 6 socioeconomic effects can be experienced 7 differently by individuals, families, and 8 communities. As you have heard, the 9 O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree have family in Winnipeg, 10 Thompson, Brandon, Pukatawagan, Cross Lake, 11 Brochet, and Nelson House. It is to be 12 anticipated that different individuals and family 13 members will feel differently about the project 14 depending on the degree to which the people are 15 connected to the direct or indirect pathways of 16 change from the proposed project. 17 It is also anticipated that different 18 communities will feel differently about the 19 proposed project depending on the ways our people 20 cope with life through our economic activities, 21 social systems and cultural values and the ways 22 our people use the natural environment for 23 subsistence, commerce, recreation, spirituality, 24 and cultural activities. 25 It is our position that the CEC cannot 6837 1 fulfil their mandate because of incomplete 2 information. Specifically, in order to determine 3 potential effects, one needs to first establish a 4 baseline of understanding with respect to that 5 which may be affected. The proponents' 6 consultants have not included the socioeconomic 7 and/or cultural baselines for our community and 8 lands and, therefore, cannot measure the effects 9 or proposed ways and means to manage it. 10 The principle assumption that has led 11 to this error is thinking that there is one 12 culture within the local region. This error led 13 the study off track and resulted in one baseline 14 for the distinctive culture of the 15 O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree. The consultants have 16 amalgamated our local perspectives with those of 17 NCN members resident at Nelson House. The 18 proponents' consultants wrote that our culture was 19 the same as the Nisichawayasihk's. They testified 20 that they didn't spend much time differentiating 21 between South Indian Lake and Nelson House, and in 22 fact, 23 "...didn't have enough knowledge to 24 elaborate on their distinctions." 25 The CEC is mandated to propose 6838 1 mitigation measures on adverse environmental, 2 socioeconomic and cultural effects, and the 3 consultants didn't even provide them with the 4 baseline of our culture, in order to measure 5 unanticipated effects, or determine effects at 6 all. 7 Cree culture is strongly linked to the 8 land and traditional land use. While the baseline 9 of traditional land use and the domestic and 10 commercial harvesting patterns were studied in 11 some detail for the portion of the local region 12 lying within the Nisichawayasihk Cree RMA, the 13 Resource Management Area, it was disrespectfully 14 ignored for the portion of the local region 15 occupied by the O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree from South 16 Indian Lake. 17 Our land use, economy, and culture may 18 potentially be effected by the OPCN members opting 19 for training and employment rather than 20 traditional practices. To keep hearing from the 21 proponents that effects will not extend 22 geographically upstream of Early Morning Rapids is 23 simply wrong in the socioeconomic context. Yet 24 the analysis is not done and, therefore, the CEC 25 is without this information. Information that is 6839 1 required to know the baseline and to determine the 2 potential effects and to make recommendations on: 3 A) mitigation of adverse socioeconomic and 4 cultural effects, b) management of residual 5 effects, and on c) future monitoring and research. 6 Mr. Osler testified that this was not 7 done out of disrespect, as it was not done 8 elsewhere either. The fact is that it was 9 inconsistently done within the local region for 10 the co-proponents' interests only. The fact that 11 they didn't consider these effects elsewhere 12 either does not make it right. 13 The only project effect deemed to be 14 significant is the revenue stream from the 15 partnership, and the consultants determined that 16 this significant effect would flow to the local 17 region. We believe the only significant effect of 18 the project can be more precisely identified as 19 applying to the Nelson House reserve land and 20 community only, with possible application beyond 21 their community boundaries, but within their RMA 22 It is a proposed investment by the Nisichawayasihk 23 Cree at Nelson House and there is no reason to 24 believe or portray this differently. Why was the 25 extent of this significant effect not described as 6840 1 precisely as possible for the CEC? It made us 2 doubt the findings of the entire Environmental 3 Impact Statement. If the consultants could not 4 more accurately describe where the only 5 significant effects would be felt, how could we 6 trust the other statements regarding lesser 7 effects? 8 The history of the O-Pinon-Na-Piwin 9 Cree and the Nisichawayasihk Cree are similar and 10 yet completely different. The cumulative results 11 of the historical differences have resulted in 12 different perspectives, different attitudes, 13 different resource areas, different opportunities, 14 different goals, different lifestyles and 15 different cultures. 16 It is generally accepted that Canadian 17 culture has evolved as the population became more 18 urban based and less farm based. Members of the 19 same families -- city cousins and country 20 cousins -- developed different attitudes, 21 perspectives, goals, lifestyles, concerns and 22 responses to different events and opportunities. 23 What is important for the city cousin may be of 24 little consequence to the country cousin and 25 vice-versa. 6841 1 The cultures of individual Cree 2 communities have also evolved at different rates 3 and in different directions from different 4 experiences, development patterns, effects and 5 opportunities. The cultures are not the same. 6 The consultants' decision to not study, analyse or 7 portray our cultures accurately and in a more 8 detailed fashion is not good enough. It is not 9 sufficient to put the information required to 10 determine effects before this Commission. 11 Today, I would first like to briefly 12 describe historical events and distinguish the two 13 Cree Nation communities of Nelson House and South 14 Indian Lake. The O-Pinon-Na-Piwin Cree have a 15 distinct and unique past, present and future. 16 MR. MAYER: Is that a good time? 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Is this an appropriate 18 time to take a break? I see you are getting 19 thirsty. 20 MR. BAKER: If you choose to, 21 Mr. Chairman. 22 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, we will have the 23 break at this point and come back for 20 after 24 3:00. 25 6842 1 (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 3:04 P.M. AND 2 RECONVENED AT 3:20 P.M.) 3 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Can I call upon the 5 people attending the presentations to get back to 6 their seats, so that we can get back to 7 proceedings here. 8 Thank you, Mr. Baker, would you 9 continue, please? I know that there are still a 10 few missing, but they will filter in gradually. 11 MR. BAKER: As I said before the 12 break, I would like to briefly describe the 13 historical events that distinguish the two Cree 14 Nation communities of Nelson House and South 15 Indian Lake, and describe the distinctive Ininew, 16 past and present, and the future of our 17 communities. And I will continue. 18 The earliest written references to the 19 people of South Indian Lake have been found in a 20 journal of Captain James Knight. Between July 14 21 to September 13, 1717, Knight attempted to 22 establish a Hudson's Bay trading post at the mouth 23 of the Churchill River. During this time, 24 Knight's journal refers to the visit by the 25 Meshinnepee Indians, or Great Water Indians, and 6843 1 confirms through very accurate description of 2 portages that they lived at Southern Indian Lake. 3 In addition to our trading trips to 4 Churchill, it is documented that we became 5 intensively involved in the fur trade as early as 6 the 1803 when the Hudson's Bay Company established 7 a post on South Indian Lake. These traditional 8 lands provided for our every need, and there was 9 little reason to travel from the Churchill River 10 drainage basin to the Nelson House river drainage 11 basin to trade as long as the companies maintained 12 their posts on the South Indian Lake and 13 Opachuanau Lake. 14 When the companies closed their posts, 15 usually for financing reasons, we had to travel 16 further to trade. Traveling to trade was an event 17 that our people undertook once or twice a year. 18 People lived on their land, not at the trading 19 post. It was much more important to be on our 20 land and near our resources to survive. People 21 who decided to work for the Hudson Bay freighting, 22 or other Hudson Bay jobs, began to modify their 23 culture and live more regularly near their 24 employer at the post. Those who preferred bush 25 life remained on the land and followed our 6844 1 traditional social and cultural values to survive. 2 People on the land reached their day-to-day 3 decisions by themselves. Since everyone came to 4 their trading post to trade sooner or later, these 5 were the locations where Canada discussed Treaty 6 with First Nations. 7 It is critical in analyzing the 8 socioeconomic environment of First Nations people 9 that you understand our Treaty relationship, 10 because it governed how the subsequent years would 11 unfold. 12 Prior to Treaty One the Canadian 13 Government appointed Wemyss Simpson as Indian 14 Commissioner and he was instructed to secure the 15 cession of the lands upon terms as favorable as 16 possible to the Government. This is an important 17 theme that has been consistently followed by the 18 Government and their Corporations ever since. The 19 Government officials were fully aware that the 20 terms of their early dealings with the First 21 Nations would set the standard for all Treaty 22 arrangements to come. Lietenant Governor 23 Archibald confirmed this in his July 19, 1871 24 report to Secretary of State Howe. 25 "In fact the terms we now agree upon 6845 1 will probably shape the arrangements 2 that we shall have to make with all 3 the Indians between the Red River and 4 the Rocky Mountains." 5 For this reason it is important that 6 we understand this background of early Treaty 7 negotiations in Manitoba which lead to entering 8 into Treaty by Aboriginal nations throughout the 9 future Prairie Provinces as well as the Cree 10 people of South Indian Lake. 11 The present circumstances of the 12 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation in South Indian Lake 13 can be traced back to Canada's policy to 14 amalgamate bands at the time of the Treaty and 15 make one band's leader the Chief, and to convert 16 the other Chiefs and Headmen into Councillors of 17 an amalgamated Treaty band. In 1875, the Deputy 18 Minister of the Interior, E.A. Meredith, 19 instructed Commissioner W.J. Christie as follows: 20 "The Minister thinks the reserves 21 should not be too numerous, and that, 22 so far as is practicable, as many of 23 the Chiefs of Bands speaking one 24 language, as will consent, should be 25 grouped together on one reserve." 6846 1 This well documented policy was based 2 on a Federal objective to save costs related to 3 administration, annual annuities, one time Treaty 4 presents, and ongoing Treaty promises. OPCN's 5 history with the indivisible Crown and their 6 corporations has always been characterized by 7 concerns over their costs and the Government 8 trying to secure access to our lands upon terms as 9 favorable as possible to the Government. 10 The post Treaty history was also 11 characterized by the subsequent demands of these 12 amalgamated nations to be led by their own local 13 leaders, recognized appropriately by Canada, and 14 have their own reserve land in their own home 15 lands. Essentially, to return to the social, 16 political, economic, and cultural relationships 17 that had existed before being amalgamated by 18 Canada at Treaty. As this "sorting out" took 19 place, the people usually lived "off reserve" on 20 their traditional lands in their traditional 21 manner, and continued to travel to the posts to 22 trade. This matter of residency had little, if 23 any, bearing on Canada's relationship with the 24 various communities, or on if the community would 25 qualify for the programs and services available 6847 1 through the Department. 2 Northern Manitoba is very typical of 3 how this relationship between the First Nations 4 and Canada evolved throughout the numbered Treaty 5 areas. The Treaty Five adhesions were the last of 6 the numbered Treaties and the process was 7 consistent and firmly entrenched by Canada by this 8 time. 9 In 1907 Reverend Semmens, Inspector of 10 Indian Agencies, traveled through Northern 11 Manitoba to check out Indian feelings with respect 12 to Treaty. 13 In the early 20th century, the 14 Hudson's Bay Company was restructuring for 15 economic reasons, fisheries were collapsing, and 16 scarcity and hunger were common place. We on the 17 other hand were doing relatively well. At South 18 Indian Lake we enjoyed a very rich resource area 19 and our land would become the largest commercial 20 fishery in Northern Manitoba. 21 In 1908 Reverend Semmens was appointed 22 Treaty Commissioner and returned to Northern 23 Manitoba with directions to secure adhesion to 24 Treaty # 5 from the Indians trading at the Split 25 Lake and Nelson House posts. 6848 1 The 1908 Treaty adhesion negotiations 2 were virtually non-existent as Semmens had no 3 discretion and was specifically instructed that 4 there would be no outside promises. Only the text 5 written on the Treaty 5 adhesion document he 6 brought with him was acceptable. In addition, he 7 was only authorized to negotiate with two bands, 8 the band trading out of Split Lake, Hudson's Bay 9 Company post, and the band trading out of the 10 Nelson House Hudson Bay Company post. 11 The future reserve locations were not 12 included in this Treaty adhesion. This separated 13 the issues for the Government, as they had found 14 that this method of negotiation reduced the 15 oppositions to the size and location of the 16 reserves until after the Treaty had been 17 finalized. The Treaty documents confirm that the 18 Treaty Commissioners knew they were dealing with 19 more than one band at each location. 20 On July 30, 1908, the bands trading 21 out of Nelson House adhered to Treaty # 5. It 22 should have surprised no one that while my people 23 adhered to Treaty at Nelson House, we never lelft 24 our hunting and resource harvesting livelihoods at 25 South Indian Lake. South Indian Lake is where we 6849 1 always lived and where the resources that 2 sustained us were plentiful. 3 The Indian Claims Commission has 4 remarked in its reports dealing with Treaty Land 5 Entitlement that Treaty pay lists record names of 6 families and family numbers, but were not intended 7 to provide accurate census records that are not 8 necessarily reliable indicators of band structures 9 or the places of residence of individuals or 10 groups. 11 At the time of the 1908 Treaty 5 12 adhesion in Nelson House and Split Lake, the only 13 Northern Manitoba nations who had previously 14 signed Treaty and received reserves were located 15 at The Pas, Moose Lake, Norway House, and Cross 16 Lake. These four Treaty bands had divided into 17 eight bands prior to the 1908 adhesions. 18 Treaty 5 reserves were to be selected 19 in consultation with the band leaders. This was 20 not possible at Nelson House. 21 When the surveyor finally showed up 22 five years later in 1913, he had not even 23 completed the survey, before the people expressed 24 their displeasure with the reserve location. 25 Despite documented requests for the reserves of 6850 1 the amalgamated Nelson House band to be in more 2 than one location to accommodate the needs of the 3 band of people amalgamated by the Treaty 4 Commissioner, and specific requests for fishing 5 facilities at Wuskwatim Lake and South Indian 6 Lake, the surveyor did not call a consultation 7 meeting with the band prior to survey as was the 8 norm. 9 When the surveyor reported on his trip 10 to Nelson House, he advised that "he was not able 11 to convene a meeting with the Indians in the usual 12 manner" or to consult on the location for the 13 reserve, as they were away freighting for the 14 Hudson's Bay Company, while those from South 15 Indian Lake were at South Indian Lake. 16 By 1914 the surveyor recommended that 17 should the location have to be changed, some land 18 should be surveyed for the band at South Indian 19 Lake. The requests for individual reserve land 20 and independent recognition of the band resident 21 at South Indian Lake have gone on continuously 22 ever since. 23 Between the time of Treaty and the 24 late 1960's, Indian Affairs agents met with us in 25 our community, treated our leaders as the 6851 1 legitimate authority in the community, and 2 provided services and financing for projects in 3 South Indian Lake directly, rather than through 4 the Chief and Council at Nelson House. 5 There has always been a general 6 reluctance on the part of the Department of Indian 7 Affairs to establish reserves and incur the costs 8 that went hand in hand with the establishment of 9 reserves. This led to the reality that even by 10 the late '60's very few reserves existed in 11 Northern Manitoba, and many, if not most 12 communities receiving Indian Affairs services and 13 programs were located off reserve. This included 14 the Savisi Dene in Churchill, the Fox Lake First 15 Nations in Gillam, the War Lake First Nation in 16 Ilford, the York Factory First Nation in York 17 Landing, the Northlands First Nation in Lac 18 Brochet, the Marcel Colomb First Nation in Lynn 19 Lake, the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree in South Indian 20 Lake, and First Nations in Granville Lake, Red 21 Sucker Lake, Shamattawa and Gods River. 22 In 1943, Harold Wells, Inspector of 23 Registered Traplines in the North proposed that 24 all of Northern Manitoba north of the 53rd 25 parallel be declared as a registered trapline 6852 1 district, with sections to be allotted to each 2 band. It was carefully explained that the system 3 would not result in dividing the country into 4 trapping grounds but similarly to demarcate the 5 trapping grounds as they existed at the time. In 6 case of dispute, the boundaries were to be settled 7 by the trappers and through negotiations between 8 the Chiefs and Councilors of the neighboring 9 bands. 10 In 1944, Harold Wells was joined by 11 Hugh Conn, a fur specialist with Indian Affairs 12 and they undertook a joint study towards expanding 13 the system throughout the north. The Wells-Conn 14 report became the basis for a 10 year 15 Canada/Manitoba cost shared agreement. Between 16 the time of ratification of the Canada/Manitoba 17 agreement and the subsequent 1945 Provincial 18 legislation, meetings to establish community 19 boundaries were held with representatives of 20 Indian bands who were to be included in this new 21 plan. While there were some disputes, most were 22 settled quickly, the boundaries were settled in 23 negotiations with all surrounding bands, and all 24 agreed that the area defined as the South Indian 25 Lake registered trapline block was not their 6853 1 resource area, but that of the band resident in 2 South Indian Lake. 3 The O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation 4 people living at and around South Indian Lake have 5 always acted independently and shared a history 6 unique from all other First Nation people. This 7 includes the economic development of our South 8 Indian Lake commercial fishery, and our 9 independent trapping and trading initiatives with 10 our district South Indian Lake Trapline Zone. Our 11 history was also characterized by repeated 12 documented requests and petitions for our reserve 13 land. These were sent by the Nelson House Chief 14 and Council, as well as by the Headman and 15 Councilors of the band who lived at South Indian 16 Lake. 17 Indian Commissioner Simpson and 18 Lieutenant Governor Archibald had on July 27, 1871 19 explained the concept of reserves as follows: 20 "Your Great Mother, therefore, will 21 lay aside for you lots of land to be 22 used by you and your children forever. 23 She will not allow the white man to 24 intrude upon these lots. She will 25 make rules to keep them from you, so 6854 1 that as long as the sun shall shine, 2 there will be no Indian who has not a 3 place that he can call his home, where 4 he can go and pitch his camp, or if he 5 chooses, build his house and till his 6 land." 7 This Treaty promise was provided to 8 the Nisichawayasihk Cree at Nelson House, but not 9 to the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree at South Indian Lake. 10 As the CRD planning began to really 11 take shape in the 1960's and early '70's, the 12 Government view of our people changed. The 13 Government suddenly wanted us to move and they 14 were opposed to finalizing negotiation for our 15 reserve at South Indian Lake. 16 The reserve which was to protect us 17 from encroachment or dispossession was not there 18 to do just that in the early 1970's when 19 Government proceeded with their project to harness 20 the power potential of our territory. As part of 21 the Churchill River Diversion and the Lake 22 Winnipeg Regulation project, our Churchill River 23 was dammed, the flow of our lake was reversed to 24 flow southward, we were branded as squatters, our 25 houses and fish camps were burned, our community 6855 1 was relocated, the waters on our lake were raised 2 10 feet, our lands were flooded, and our once 3 thriving economy and commercial fishery was 4 devastated. These drastic effects were felt by 5 the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree at South Indian Lake 6 only, and forever changed our perspective and 7 attitudes. 8 The time of the relocation of the 9 community of South Indian Lake was a time of 10 profound change for the community for a number of 11 reasons. Of course the most devastating was the 12 Government's decision to proceed with the CRD. 13 In addition, however, the Ruttan Mine 14 was developed and Leaf Rapids was constructed 15 bringing many more outsiders into our territory. 16 Manitoba also passed the Northern Affairs Act in 17 1970, and so began the system of elected Mayors 18 and Councils for Northern Affairs Communities. 19 This also altered the traditional manner of 20 electing leaders in South Indian Lake, and no 21 longer were the elections pursuant to the Indian 22 Act, and no longer was our Chief elected to sit on 23 the Nelson House First Nation council. The First 24 Nation Government was dismissed and replaced with 25 a Mayor and Council elected pursuant to Provincial 6856 1 legislation. This effect was only felt by the 2 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree at South Indian Lake, not 3 the Nisichawayasihk Cree at Nelson House. 4 Suddenly and coincidentally, Canada 5 reduced our regular programming at South Indian 6 Lake to social assistance, health care, and 7 education only. Canada no longer considered the 8 interests of Treaty people living at South Indian 9 Lake as they did the Treaty people living on 10 reserve communities impacted by the Churchill 11 River Diversion, or another off reserve community 12 in the case of York Landing. 13 Another profound change that began at 14 the time of the Churchill River Diversion and 15 community relocation was Canada's decision to 16 amended the manner of financing the limited 17 services that they did continue to provide to our 18 community by either cancelling our people's 19 eligibility for services and programs all 20 together, or funneling services and program 21 funding through the Nelson House Council. 22 Sometimes Nelson House Council reduced the funding 23 by a 10 percent administration fee and forwarded 24 the balance, and other times the entire sum or the 25 majority of the budget was retained and expended 6857 1 for the betterment of the Nisichawayasihk Cree 2 people in Nelson House only. 3 The proponents' consultant 4 acknowledged during testimony on April 14 that 5 finances are a very important component of 6 socioeconomic environment and the past helps to 7 explain to a culture what is likely to happen in 8 the future. 9 While we were still considered by 10 Canada to be Nelson House band members, we were 11 not eligible for independent membership in the 12 Northern Flood Committee which was incorporated to 13 protect the impacted communities from adverse 14 hydro development impacts. They told us the 15 resulting Northern Flood Agreement, the NFA, would 16 not address adverse impacts that the 17 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree suffered at South Indian 18 Lake. To be told by Government that the NFA was 19 not to address CRD impacts to our homes and 20 traditional lands was our unique experience alone. 21 The O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation was not a formal 22 party to the NFA, as the Indian reserve land that 23 was to protect our homes and our lands was not 24 there to do just that when we needed it the most. 25 The Nisichawayasihk Cree in Nelson 6858 1 House and the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree in South 2 Indian Lake have always lived in adjacent but 3 distinct resource areas. While we share a Cree 4 culture, we have made different social and 5 economic decisions that we felt best for our 6 individual communities alone. We were both 7 affected by the Churchill River Diversion, but the 8 impacts each band experienced from the CRD were 9 unique and distinct. We were treated completely 10 differently by Government, our common fiduciary. 11 The socioeconomic environment and the cultural 12 distinctions within our communities have grown 13 wider over the years. 14 Ironically, because Canada considered 15 us members of the Nelson House and because we were 16 already legal interest holders in the reserve land 17 that Canada surveyed at Nelson House, we were 18 eligible to vote on the March 15, 1978 NFA 19 ratification as members of Nelson House, but only 20 if we traveled to the polling station which was 21 set up at Nelson House. Our people did not vote. 22 Eventually only 121 people out of 833 eligible 23 voters voted yes to the NFA. A simple majority of 24 14.5 percent. Even though we were recognized as 25 eligible voters with a say in what happens to the 6859 1 Treaty lands set apart for our ancestors at Nelson 2 House, we were told that we were not to share in 3 the compensation benefits contained in the NFA. 4 In 1989, approximately 12 years after 5 the Northern Flood Agreement, the arbitrator ruled 6 that we were persons as defined in the Northern 7 Flood Agreement. Further, the Northern Flood 8 Agreement contemplated that there would be adverse 9 effects not covered in the agreement, and 10 therefore provided an arbitration process that 11 could deal with the adverse effects covered in the 12 agreement as well as those adverse effects not 13 covered. 14 The arbitrator ruled that the NFA 15 applied to our people. You would think that by 16 1989 after our rights had been affirmed in the 17 Constitution in 1982, that the Government would 18 respect this decision. Instead, Manitoba 19 challenged the arbitrator's ruling in the Manitoba 20 Court of Appeal. 21 Two weeks ago during the MMF 22 presentation when the Metis testified that the 23 Manitoba Government had intervened in the Powley 24 Supreme Court decision, it didn't sound like much 25 had changed at all. 6860 1 Subsequently Manitoba, Manitoba Hydro, 2 and our South Indian Lake people entered into a 3 December 29, 1989 memorandum of understanding, 4 pursuant to which extensive negotiations were 5 conducted, during which the hearings of the said 6 appeal to the Manitoba Court of Appeal was 7 postponed. 8 The 1992 settlement agreement was 9 negotiated, and through our community association 10 we signed a compensation agreement. Within this 11 agreement, Manitoba committed 8,500 acres of land 12 for the band at South Indian Lake, and Manitoba 13 Hydro was included in the reserve establishment 14 process. 15 Another 12 years have now past and not 16 one acre has transferred. A few weeks ago, Hydro 17 testified that they are still determining 18 severance lines 12 years after committing long 19 outstanding reserve lands for our benefit and 20 protection. Of course, both Manitoba and Manitoba 21 Hydro now tell us that they can't set apart the 22 8,500 acres as a reserve because the Federal 23 Government has not recognized us independently. 24 My people want to know why promises were committed 25 by Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro that they cannot 6861 1 fulfill unilaterally? The Crown is indivisible, 2 so create our reserve. Only financial 3 responsibility hold them back. 4 The Augmented Flow Program that the 5 people of South Indian Lake accepted when we 6 signed our 1992 settlement agreement contains two 7 very important conditions for my people. 8 The Minister of Conservation annually 9 permits the deviation from the Churchill River 10 Diversion for a further one year period provided 11 in all cases that; 12 13 1) Manitoba Hydro fully mitigate any 14 effects on the altered levels and 15 flows; And 16 2) That the maximum draw down on 17 Southern Indian Lake of 4.5 feet be 18 staggered over a period of time and in 19 such a manner so as to minimize 20 adverse impacts on Southern Indian 21 Lake residents." 22 Those are quotes. 23 In order for Manitoba Hydro to fully 24 mitigate the adverse effects of the altered flows 25 and levels, we believe they would need to first 6862 1 develop a comprehensive plan. They would need to 2 consult with us on the adverse effects that we as 3 a community have experienced. They would have to 4 set up a monitoring program to gather data on the 5 various environmental parameters of concern. A 6 remedial works plan could then be established 7 which would identify mitigative works that could 8 be undertaken to address and fully mitigate the 9 adverse effects. 10 We believe consultation with our 11 members should be an integral component of fully 12 mitigating these adverse effects. Manitoba and 13 Manitoba Hydro have long understood our goals, in 14 fact committed reserve land for our Cree Nation 15 over 12 years ago. They would certainly 16 understand the importance of including the 17 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree leadership in the 18 development of a monitoring program and plan to 19 fully mitigate the adverse effects on Southern 20 Indian Lake. 21 However, we are not aware of the 22 comprehensive plan and to us the adverse effects 23 are not fully mitigated. Does anyone here believe 24 that the adverse effects of the Augmented Flow 25 Program are fully mitigated, or that the Augmented 6863 1 Flow Program is operated in a manner to minimize 2 these impacts? I'm sure it would be tricky for 3 Manitoba Hydro to meet their committed flow 4 requirements at Churchill and Nelson House, and at 5 the same time operate the CRD in a manner to 6 minimize the impacts at South Indian Lake. 7 So what exactly does Manitoba Hydro 8 mean when they assert that with Wuskwatim they 9 will not change the manner in which they operate 10 the CRD and regulate South Indian Lake? We 11 believe the Minister of Conservation should be 12 ensuring that the conditions the Minister of 13 Conservation attaches annually to the Manitoba 14 Hydro's Augmented Flow Program are fulfilled. Mr. 15 Adams testified many times that Hydro is in 16 compliance with all license conditions, so he must 17 believe the adverse effects at South Indian Lake 18 are fully mitigated. I guess we will have to 19 agree to disagree. 20 One of the noteworthy commitments by 21 Canada, NCN, and Manitoba to formally recognize 22 the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation at South Indian 23 Lake and establish the reserve occurred nine years 24 ago. The 1995 Memorandum of Understanding in 25 which all parties committed to use their best 6864 1 efforts to ensure the success of the process 2 leading to the recognition of the band at South 3 Indian Lake, in an expeditious manner. How did 4 this MOU come about one might ask, and why has it 5 not been acted upon 9 years later? The MOU 6 resulted from Canada unilaterally deciding to no 7 longer finance social assistance services off 8 reserve and dropping the program at South Indian 9 Lake. Our people protested and marched towards 10 Thompson. At Nelson House, Canada, and Manitoba 11 and Nelson House met with the First Nations people 12 of South Indian Lake and the MOU was signed. The 13 Federal social assistance program was reinstated 14 on the condition that progress continue to be made 15 in an expeditious manner towards establishing the 16 reserve and independently recognizing the 17 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation. Being treated by 18 Canada and Manitoba as pawns in their ongoing 19 disputes over the portability of Treaty rights was 20 front page news in the Winnipeg Free Press, and 21 another unique experience felt only by the 22 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree at South Indian Lake, and 23 not the Nisichawayasihk Cree. 24 We were not offered a Resource 25 Management Area like the other bands impacted by 6865 1 the Churchill River Diversion, although we were 2 likely impacted more than all of the others, and 3 were the only community to be relocated. 4 We did not receive provisions in our 5 compensation agreement dealing with future hydro 6 development in our traditional South Indian Lake 7 territory, similar to article 8 of the NCN NFA 8 comprehensive implementation agreement. The 9 relationship that Manitoba Hydro has developed 10 with our community is skewed through their policy 11 of only dealing directly with First Nations 12 recognized by Canada. Manitoba Hydro recognizes 13 the critical role South Indian Lake has on the 14 their operations of the entire Churchill River 15 Diversion hydroelectric power system, but yet the 16 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree and South Indian Lake have 17 no future power development relationship with 18 Manitoba Hydro. Hydro maintains that the Chief 19 and Council of Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation 20 adequately represent the people of South Indian 21 Lake. To us, this is not a solid cornerstone for 22 an improved relationship with Cree Nation that 23 Hydro has repeatedly referenced during these 24 hearings. 25 So we carry on without a formal 6866 1 resource management agreement on our traditional 2 lands, without the reserve land that Canada 3 committed at Treaty and Manitoba and Manitoba 4 Hydro committed in 1992, and without a 5 relationship to guide us when Manitoba Hydro's 6 future developments are planned around us, and are 7 dependent upon the water in our lake. 8 So, as you can easily see, our life 9 experiences and those of our parents and our 10 ancestors have been much different from those of 11 the Nisichawayasihk Cree who have lived on reserve 12 with different laws, different governance, 13 different legislation, different settlement 14 agreements with different provisions, a different 15 economy, different goals, and a different culture 16 with different customs. 17 The socioeconomic history of the 18 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree is critical for the CEC to 19 understand the baseline of this environmental 20 component. It is essential to understand the 21 unique and distinct perspectives and cultures of 22 the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation. We expected it 23 to be reflected in the Environmental Impact 24 Statement's socioeconomic component, but instead 25 the proponents' consultants amalgamated us in the 6867 1 local region and described the Nelson House 2 culture and goals as applying to us as well. The 3 proponents gave this work their blessing. As you 4 have just heard, our historical relationship with 5 the proponents is long, and they know better than 6 that. 7 The proposed Wuskwatim development can 8 potentially affect the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree 9 economy, society and culture. 10 If our traditional land use and 11 harvesting patterns change, so will our culture. 12 If our commercial fishing harvesters opt for 13 training and employment, as they did after the CRD 14 was first developed, the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree 15 Fishermen's quotas may not be harvested, our fish 16 plant may have to lay off staff and close, the 17 semi trailers hauling fish to Freshwater Fish 18 Corporation may no longer be economically viable. 19 Some individuals will gain through training, work 20 experience, and cash in their pockets. Our 21 socioeconomic environment may suffer however, our 22 fish plant workers may suffer, and other fishers 23 from inland lakes and other Cree Nations may find 24 the new transportation costs uneconomical. 25 Ultimately all of these changes may affect our 6868 1 community economy, and culture. 2 In fact, the consultants confirmed 3 this on page 8-59 of volume 8, section 3.1.4. The 4 consultants testified however that they do not 5 think the effects will extend to the 6 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree who live in South Indian 7 Lake, so they only analyzed these possible effects 8 from the proponents' members who lived at Nelson 9 House. They also testified that they couldn't 10 reach more certain conclusions on this potential 11 effect anyway, so they didn't recommend study or 12 monitoring or mitigation. This leaves the 13 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree and the CEC panel in a bad 14 way, because that is part of what the CEC has been 15 mandated to do. The proponents' EIS leaves our 16 concerns, our culture, and the possible 17 socioeconomic effects out of their analysis. This 18 concerns us a great deal. 19 We disagree with Mr. Osler when he 20 testified that they didn't complete their analysis 21 uniformly within the local region because he 22 didn't know how to predict that specific resource 23 users would in any material way change their 24 activities as a result of employment opportunities 25 on the project. Transcript page 3862. That does 6869 1 not make sense. Mr. Wojczynski described their 2 EIS reports as leading edge and state of the art. 3 It is a very simple exercise to conduct this 4 analysis with a greater degree of confidence than 5 we presently have respecting these types of 6 effects by simply caring enough to ask the 7 resource users, the quota holders, the appropriate 8 questions. 9 Mr. Grewar is giving out exhibits, the 10 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation map exhibits. I will 11 wait until you have received them and can look at 12 them and we will go through them. 13 Map number 1 is the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin 14 Cree Nation resource area. This map illustrates 15 that South Indian Lake registered trapline block 16 and Treaty Land Entitlement selections of the 17 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation. The red line also 18 illustrates the proponents' Wuskwatim EIS local 19 region crosses through the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin 20 resource area. That is map 1. 21 Go to map 2, a portion of the 22 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation resource area 23 included by the proponents in the Wuskwatim EIS 24 local region. The key map in the top left corner 25 illustrates, A) NCN resource management area in 6870 1 yellow; B) the outline of the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin 2 Cree Nation resource area with individual 3 traplines in purple; C) the area of the OPCN 4 resource area overlapping by the proponents' local 5 region in orange; D) the local region encompassing 6 the NCN RMA and the small end portion of the OPCN 7 resource area. The main map is a portion of the 8 OPCN resource area that is overlapped by the 9 proponents local region, orange in the key map. 10 This main map illustrates the OPCN Treaty Land 11 Entitlement selections, South Indian Lake 12 commercially fished lakes, South Indian Lake 13 trapline boundaries, and the Manitoba Hydro water 14 power reserve line in the South Indian Lake 15 portion of the local region. 16 We have brought the Commission some 17 exhibits of our resource area that illustrate the 18 portion the proponents, A) included in the Local 19 Region, and B) didn't analyze. 20 Our exhibits confirm that what the 21 proponents' EIS neglected to mention to you or 22 portrayed to you erroneously is that within the 23 small portion of our resource area that they 24 included in the local region, we have 7 full 25 traplines and 4 partial traplines, 19 Treaty land 6871 1 entitlement selections totalling 18,533 acres, and 2 7 commercially fished lakes with a 483,500 3 kilogram quota. The O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree 4 commercial fishing quota in just this small 5 portion of our resource area is over double the 6 size of the quota in the entire NCN RMA. While we 7 can potentially be affected significantly more 8 than Nelson House due to the potential impacts on 9 our commercial fishery, neither the proponents or 10 their consultants feel that these possible effects 11 should be studied, or even referenced in their 12 analysis. 13 Why are my people always treated as 14 second class citizens in this Province? How will 15 the CEC complete their mandate in the absence of 16 this analysis? Do you understand what I mean when 17 I say the frustration feels just like that 18 experienced by my elders during the development of 19 the CRD? 20 Mr. Osler testified on day one of 21 these hearings that the environmental component 22 called socioeconomic, essentially means in 23 layman's language the people environment. He 24 stated that their assessment incorporated local 25 and traditional knowledge as well as scientific 6872 1 information. Mr. Osler went on to explain that 2 the traditional knowledge, 3 "Involves an attitude of respect by 4 those doing the work to the local and 5 traditional views, and knowledge of 6 the people in the areas that are going 7 to be potentially affected." 8 He stated that, 9 "It also deals with people's views of 10 the world, their spirituality, how 11 they see relationships between and 12 among themselves and the environment, 13 and the elements of the environment 14 that they want to see protected." 15 What kind of respect is shown when 16 OPCN, who is recognized by every First Nation in 17 Canada is not acknowledged in this analysis? What 18 kind of respect is shown when our specific culture 19 and community perspectives are amalgamated in the 20 local region that includes the proponents' much 21 larger community. No other community, Cree, Metis 22 or white, ever experienced what we have 23 experienced from the CRD, or from Canada, 24 Manitoba, and Manitoba Hydro's treatment of our 25 community since Treaty. None. 6873 1 Mr. Osler testified that "cumulative 2 effects" is essentially an EIS done properly and 3 well, taking into account how the environment may 4 be changing due to the past, current, and future 5 projects that we are reasonably certain will be 6 carried out. These cumulative effects are 7 obviously different for the Nisichawayasihk Cree 8 at Nelson House and the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree at 9 South Indian Lake. NCN, as used in the EIS, is 10 understood to be one band, but it is two distinct 11 Cree Nation communities, and that is the first 12 principal error that takes the analysis off the 13 rails. The two Cree Nation communities have a 14 different history, different economy, different 15 impacts, different people, different culture, 16 different settlement agreements, different 17 legislations and laws and different governments. 18 Mr. Osler also testified with respect 19 to future activities, that they did not need to be 20 those already licensed. Instead, he stated, 21 "Applications have been made is sort 22 of the basic requirement." 23 Commitments have been made by all parties to 24 recognize the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree and 25 applications have been made, but this is given but 6874 1 passing acknowledgment and no analysis of how this 2 relates to cumulative effects, or to how each of 3 our two Cree Nation communities will be effected. 4 The CEC is mandated to investigate the 5 changes which will be experienced by the cultures 6 affected by the proposed project, yet you are 7 essentially being told by the proponents' 8 consultants that Canada thinks that people from 9 these two Cree Nation communities are all the 10 same, so we do too. In fairness to Mr. Osler, he 11 testified that he did focus on Nelson House, and 12 he also testified that the culture of the many 13 Cree communities in Northern Canada are not the 14 same. He also testified that he didn't have 15 sufficient knowledge to comment on the 16 distinctions between the two Cree Nation 17 communities that he grouped in the local region. 18 The questions we are left with then 19 is, A) why were we amalgamated in the local region 20 where pathways of effects were generalized across 21 a broad local region in which we are a minority 22 instead of being specifically described for each 23 distinct culture, and B) why wasn't the research 24 completed to acquire the knowledge of the 25 distinctive cultures and socioeconomic conditions 6875 1 that the CEC requires? 2 With respect to socioeconomics, Mr. 3 Osler testified that the guidelines say, 4 "You have to look at the zones within 5 which there may be regional or global 6 effects from these projects." 7 By zones he gave an example. 8 "If you are going to affect some 9 caribou and they range over a much 10 bigger range, then you better take 11 account of all of the things that are 12 going on inside of the area where they 13 are ranging, or you may miss something 14 that will be critical to them." 15 The O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree range over a much bigger 16 range than the area defined within the local 17 region. The local region leaves out the vast 18 majority of our traditional lands and thereby our 19 economy. The quotas and the values of our 20 commercial fishery and trapping grounds cannot be 21 found in the report and the relationship to 22 project the effects is lacking. While the 23 proponents comment on the effects of the Wuskwatim 24 employment patterns on the NCN RMA commercial 25 fishing and trapping and domestic harvesting, they 6876 1 do not do the same analysis with respect to our 2 resource area, they call us NCN members but they 3 treat us differently with respect to traditional 4 resources area analysis. 5 Mr. Osler testified that the people 6 are not fish. He testified that people have 7 perspective, goals, and values, and these are 8 very, very important to understand, in order to 9 comprehend how they get affected by a project. 10 That is why people are not fish. Mr. Osler agreed 11 that the two main communities within the local 12 region will experience the effects differently as 13 the pathways of effects will be different. We 14 acknowledged that the people at South Indian Lake 15 are looking at the situation in many instances 16 differently, and that this will affect and is 17 affecting our concerns and issues that have arisen 18 from our unique personal objectives and personal 19 perspectives arising from our history. The 20 effects, however, are not analyzed. 21 In energy lingo "clean energy" seems 22 to imply that it is harmless. This energy isn't 23 harmless. You are invited to visit my community 24 and witness clean harmless energy in the making. 25 There are externalities everywhere, health, 6877 1 social, incarceration, poverty, loss of cultural 2 education, water quality, erosion, floating debris 3 and islands, despair, hopelessness. 4 We heard Manitoba Hydro advise that 5 they had conducted a sensitivity analysis on a 6 reduced water flow scenario whereby the annual 7 deviation from the CRD known as the Augmented Flow 8 Program was not extended, and that this scenario 9 would reduce the water flows on the Burntwood 10 River by 10 percent. Actually it was 8.6 percent. 11 Sensitivity analysis is a funny term to me. Our 12 experience has been that Manitoba Hydro has not 13 been very sensitive to our environment or to our 14 people. 15 We heard Manitoba Hydro project a 16 Wuskwatim revenue stream of 50 to 100 million 17 annually, and simple mathematics tells us that a 18 10 percent drop in flows will cost the proponents 19 approximately 5 to 10 million annually. We also 20 heard Manitoba Hydro testify that even with this 21 scenario, the financial feasibility of Wuskwatim 22 would be just fine. The elders do not understand 23 this. The Augmented Flow Program that causes so 24 many adverse effects on our community will make 25 the proponents a great deal of money, and the 6878 1 Nisichawayasihk Cree Chief and Council who purport 2 to represent us and promote this project say this 3 is good? 4 Something is wrong when: a) the 5 adverse effects are experienced by my people; b) 6 there is no watchdog to ensure that Manitoba Hydro 7 fully addresses the Provincial Government 8 conditions they attach to the annual AFP 9 deviation; c) the increased revenues that are not 10 required to maintain the feasibility of the 11 project are not used to address the adverse 12 impacts; and d) the revenues accrue to proponents 13 down river. While we respect NCN sovereignty, as 14 I said at the beginning, the exercise of their 15 sovereignty should not adversely impact that of 16 another. 17 These facts that are truly part of the 18 socioeconomic and cultural environment in which 19 the proposal proceeds are complicating the 20 proposal. This is not the fault of the 21 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation. We would have 22 preferred to have been recognized independently a 23 long time ago. In fact it is the reverse. The 24 proposal brought forward by the project proponents 25 is complicating our lives yet again, and the 6879 1 potential effects on the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree are 2 not analyzed. 3 We will keep seeking our rightful 4 independent recognition forever. We will keep 5 pushing Manitoba Hydro to honour the conditions 6 attached by the Manitoba Minister of Conservation 7 to the AFP deviation to the interim license for 8 the Churchill River Diversion. We formally 9 request Manitoba to explain why it is that the 10 impacts are not fully mitigated and our lake 11 operated in a manner to minimize adverse effects 12 as stipulated year after year after year? The 13 Augmented Flow Program that is so very lucrative 14 to Hydro and the proponents of Wuskwatim, is also 15 full of adverse effects on our lake, and on our 16 resource area, that continue endlessly. 17 The proponents cannot ignore the 18 potential effects on our society, our economy, and 19 our culture again. The CEC mandate is to ensure 20 that this does not happen. We ask that you 21 fulfill your mandate. We ask that you extend hope 22 to the people of South Indian Lake by proving to 23 them that there is truth in Hydro's assertions 24 that there is a new way of doing Hydro development 25 business in Manitoba. 6880 1 The O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation 2 respectfully recommends the following: 3 1. The CEC should ensure that the 4 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree culture and socioeconomic 5 setting in South Indian Lake is accurately 6 portrayed in the EIS, so that we are able to 7 monitor change and determine effects, especially 8 in relation to our commercial fishery, our 9 traditional harvesting, and our culture. We need 10 this baseline established. 11 2. That the proposed employment monitoring within 12 the local region needs to separate the effects 13 experienced by South Indian Lake and Nelson House, 14 so that we can precisely analyse the results and 15 determine appropriate and targeted mitigative 16 measures and follow-up. 17 3. To recognize that a social and cultural effect 18 of the proposed project is the further division of 19 the communities and families, and increased 20 financial disparities between communities. At 21 present there is no recognition of this effect or 22 analysis. If the equity cash flow to a community 23 is a significant effect, so too is the social 24 disparity that will be created between the 25 communities. 6881 1 4. That the Augmented Flow Program conditions set 2 out by the Minister of Conservation every year for 3 the past 12 years should be enforced. 4 5. Recognition that the adverse effects from the 5 Churchill River diversion are ongoing, outstanding 6 business that needs to be dealt with, to protect 7 the honour of the Crown and their Crown 8 corporations, and to restore the lost trust 9 between Cree Nation communities and the utility. 10 6. That Manitoba Hydro's conversion of South 11 Indian Lake into a reservoir necessitates that 12 they develop a relationship with the Cree Nation 13 immediately, to add reality to their First Nation 14 partnership strategy. 15 7. Finally, recognition that the Cree Nation 16 community of South Indian Lake has unique 17 interests and cannot be accurately represented by 18 the proponents who have different interests, 19 aspirations, and goals. 20 Thank you for providing me with an 21 opportunity to address the Commission today. 22 Thank you for listening to the concerns of the 23 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree from South Indian Lake. 24 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, if we might 25 move to introduce this as an exhibit, the 6882 1 presentation. It is going to use an original 2 exhibit number series which will be changed later, 3 but it will be OPNPCN-1001 as the presentation, 4 and the map exhibits will be OPNPCN-1002. 5 When we first assigned these numbers 6 we were using OPNPCN, just for the purposes of the 7 exhibits series so that it is consistent. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: So it is OPN? 9 MR. GREWAR: We can indicate that. 10 That will require us to revise all three of the 11 numbers then from OPNPCN series to just OPCN-1001, 12 1002. 13 14 (EXHIBIT OPCN-1001: Presentation of 15 Headman Chris Baker on behalf of 16 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation) 17 (EXHIBIT OPCN-1002: Maps presented by 18 Headman Chris Baker on behalf of 19 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation) 20 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Baker, are you 22 available for questions as well tomorrow, or do -- 23 Mr. Grewar, can we extend the sitting today? 24 MR. GREWAR: If that is necessary, 25 certainly, Mr. Chairman. It is your call. 6883 1 Tomorrow is a fairly tight day. It is 4:30 now, 2 did you want to proceed with cross-examination 3 now? 4 THE CHAIRMAN: We can begin the 5 process, yes. 6 We will take a short break, ten 7 minutes. 8 (RECESS TAKEN) 9 10 THE CHAIRMAN: We will proceed now 11 with the remaining of the questioning until 5:30, 12 and continue tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock. If 13 that -- is, if you are available? 14 MR. BAKER: I would prefer to conclude 15 the questioning this evening because I will not be 16 available tomorrow morning. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: That will not be 18 possible. Unfortunately, some have commitments 19 for 5:30 and cannot continue. 20 MR. BAKER: I have no disrespect, 21 Mr. Chairman, but I also have commitments too that 22 I have to follow. And I believe the questions 23 that you are required to ask should be asked. 24 THE CHAIRMAN: The unfortunate part 25 about that, Mr. Baker, is that -- we have a 6884 1 missing commissioner. 2 3 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 4 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Baker we will 6 proceed with the questions until 5:30. We will 7 have to make a determination, Mr. Baker, and we 8 will have various options to decide upon and some 9 of these options is whether we call you back for 10 the 7th of June to complete the questioning, or 11 that we make some decision in regards to the value 12 that we accord to your presentation. This is 13 something that we will have to consider. But the 14 longer we talk about it, the less time we have to 15 pursue with the questions. So we will go on with 16 the questions right now 17 MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman, may I please 18 make a suggestion. For the people that need to 19 maybe be somewhere else, as their committed 20 schedules may be, I would suggest that those 21 people ask the questions first so that the ones 22 that don't have to -- 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Unfortunately, Mr. 24 Baker, the problem is that two of the members of 25 the Commission also have to be somewhere else 6885 1 after 5:30, that therefore makes it unavoidable. 2 MR. BAKER: I think if we lock the 3 door maybe no one will leave. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go on with the 5 question. Who wants to begin? Mr. Mayer. 6 MR. MAYER: I will be brief. Mr. 7 Baker, am I correct in my assumption that the 8 members of OPCN are exactly the same people that 9 constitute the 80 to 90 percent of the population 10 of South Indian Lake that are NCN members? 11 MR. BAKER: I think plus the off 12 reserve people also need to be included. 13 MR. MAYER: Are they also NCN members? 14 MR. BAKER: Legally. Technically. 15 MR. MAYER: And how have you 16 determined your membership? Has somebody been 17 signed up. Is there a formal membership list 18 that -- I'm assuming the people who choose to 19 remain as NCN members would have that right, am I 20 correct? 21 MR. BAKER: That's correct. 22 MR. MAYER: So do we know how many 23 people, or do you have an actual band membership 24 list at this point? 25 MR. BAKER: We are in the process of 6886 1 doing that. And we have had funding from the 2 Department of Indian Affairs to do exactly that 3 with all band members. 4 MR. MAYER: Where -- 5 MR. BAKER: And also people that live 6 outside of our community. 7 MR. MAYER: Without that, Mr. Baker, 8 how does this Commission determine who you 9 actually represent? Because as I understand it, 10 you are also an elected member of the NCN band 11 council, am I not correct in that too? 12 MR. BAKER: I have ran, and I did run 13 in the formal band election. But I'm not 14 recognized as one of the official NCN Chief or 15 Council. 16 MR. MAYER: You were elected, weren't 17 you, sir? 18 MR. BAKER: Yes, I was. 19 MR. MAYER: As Headman at South Indian 20 Lake. I thought that was a position on the NCN 21 band council. Was I incorrect in my assumption, 22 or has it changed? 23 MR. BAKER: Let me explain. In our 24 traditional custom we've always had a Headman, a 25 leader, that the people duly elect throughout the 6887 1 history, before treaty, before anything, we have 2 always had that, and I can fairly say it has been 3 like that for most First Nations in this country. 4 MR. MAYER: I'm not sure that I'm any 5 wiser. I understood when you were originally 6 elected, I think it was a couple of years ago 7 now -- 8 MR. BAKER: It was four years ago, 9 coming on to four years. In February it will be 10 the fourth year. 11 MR. MAYER: Was that the last election 12 that you were involved in? 13 MR. BAKER: No, it wasn't. I was in 14 the most recent election. Just for the record, I 15 tried to get a council resolution from the Chief 16 and Council to have our own custom election for 17 the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Headman position. And my 18 request was denied, and I was subject to running 19 in the regular election, so I pursued, and yes, I 20 got elected. 21 MR. MAYER: Are you, or are you not a 22 member of NCN's band council? 23 MR. BAKER: I'm a representative, a 24 duly elected representative of the people in South 25 Indian Lake known as the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree 6888 1 Nation First Nation members in that community. 2 MR. MAYER: I have no further 3 questions. 4 THE CHAIRMAN: Other questions? 5 MR. BAKER: And I'm not -- just to 6 clarify that also for the -- I'm not, I don't sign 7 BCRs. I don't have the authority as would Chief 8 or the council, which are part of the Government 9 structure that govern the NCN. 10 THE CHAIRMAN: Questions? 11 Mr. Nepinak. 12 MR. NEPINAK: Just a brief question. 13 Do you have a type of elections -- we have band 14 custom elections or under Indian Act elections, 15 which process do you follow -- 16 MR. BAKER: Band custom. And we just 17 for the record too, we are in the process of and 18 it is in one of the final stages in draft, and 19 that also has been sponsored by the regional 20 department to submit a capacity billing, which we 21 are in the process of doing as we are going on. 22 MR. NEPINAK: How far away are you on 23 the new reserve status? I understand you are 24 going towards that process, how far away are you? 25 MR. BAKER: We are at the cusp of 6889 1 recognition. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Matthews Lemieux. 3 MR. BAKER: If I can indulge you in 4 some more information in regards to where we are 5 at at this point in time in our reserve 6 recognition. Some of the things are commitments 7 by all parties, which are Canada, Manitoba, and 8 NCN to finalize recognition of the 9 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin independently, commitments by 10 Manitoba and Hydro to set apart reserve land for 11 the independent First Nations in South Indian 12 Lake. 13 MR. ABRA: I can't hear you and the 14 court reporter can't hear you. 15 MR. BAKER: I apologize for that. 16 Commitments in 1996, agreement for independent 17 reserve land in South Indian Lake, engaged in 18 negotiations with Canada and Manitoba at present. 19 A binding agreement is presently with Canada and 20 Manitoba legal counsel for finalization. Public 21 Works Canada is presently undertaking a 22 250,000-dollar analysis of each and every building 23 in South Indian Lake to determine their conditions 24 and upgrading requirements for the purpose of 25 negotiating a cost sharing package with Manitoba. 6890 1 Commitment to process phase one of our CASIL 2 agreement lands by the associate RGD and the 3 Deputy Minister, financing from Canada for 4 capacity building to ensure that we have our 5 governance structure in place upon recognition. 6 These funds have been used to develop our 7 organization chart, our policies, our election 8 code, our membership code, a communal land 9 transfer plan and municipal development and 10 service agreement which would be between the mayor 11 and council, and the Chief and Council of OPCN. 12 Financing from Canada for Headman and independent 13 membership clerk, a treaty land entitlement 14 coordinator, an independent TLE land selection 15 study for the constitution of the social assistant 16 program offers service in contravention of 17 Canada's policies. And we have done a majority of 18 things. We have sat with the -- we have already 19 started sitting with NCN Chief and Council, and 20 their representative, Valerie Matthews Lemieux, in 21 trying to come to some sort of agreement or an 22 understanding of separating and splitting assets 23 that are I guess entitled to membership under NCN. 24 And there are other places in negotiations with 25 Canada and Manitoba Health, Manitoba/Canada First 6891 1 Nations Innuit Health Branch, the lands branch. 2 So we are very close. Can you hear me now? 3 MR. ABRA: Yes, thank you, sir. 4 MR. BAKER: You are welcome. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Baker, do you see 6 yourselves as parties to the proposed partnership? 7 MR. BAKER: I have to answer that in 8 this way. According to the analysis done by the 9 proponents' consultants it is determined in my 10 point of view that we are not. 11 THE CHAIRMAN: So, you don't see 12 yourselves as potentially benefiting from this 13 agreement? 14 MR. BAKER: I didn't say that, what I 15 think, I think that it should be looked upon as 16 what we are legally entitled to. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: I don't know if I got 18 your whole answer or not. 19 MR. BAKER: Let me put it this way. 20 At this time, subject the finalization of the 21 agreement with the Nisichawayasihk Cree Nation 22 regarding our separation, our recognition, the 23 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation wants only what we 24 are legally entitled to. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Assuming that this 6892 1 project were to carry through, and that there was 2 this vote in the NCN that favored the partnership 3 proposal and the project was -- there was 4 construction that took place, and benefits were to 5 accrue ten years down the line, and by that time 6 when the benefits start to accrue, you have 7 obtained your status as OPCN band. Would you see 8 the benefits accruing to you still? 9 MR. BAKER: I guess that would have to 10 be subject to what we would decide on for both 11 communities. And I believe that -- right now I 12 believe that is a totally different table. 13 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me ask it 14 differently. Do you think the benefits should 15 also accrue to your reserve? Even after such a 16 split had taken place and was ratified in law? 17 MR. BAKER: If it was ratified by law, 18 I think that would be the decision of Chief and 19 Council. I would leave it to them to do their 20 best judgment and their best call in their duly 21 elected position that they hold for the best 22 interest of all people. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. Ms. 24 Matthews Lemieux. 25 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Just following 6893 1 up from that last question, Mr. Baker, in terms of 2 the last set of questions that were asked by the 3 chairperson, can you just confirm then what your 4 position is with respect to NCN members who are 5 part of O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation as it 6 currently exists, and whether they should 7 participate in the ratification vote NCN will hold 8 on the PDA? 9 MR. BAKER: I think that has already 10 been clarified, Ms. Matthews Lemieux, through what 11 Councillor Thomas has expressed during the CEC 12 hearings. 13 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I am asking 14 your views. 15 THE WITNESS: I think that Councillor 16 Thomas' answer is sufficient and it should answer 17 itself. 18 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I'm afraid you 19 are not answering the question that I'm asking 20 you. I want to know what your position is as to 21 whether NCN members who you indicate are currently 22 also members, as I understand your position, of 23 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin, whether they should or should 24 not participate in the ratification vote on the 25 PDA? What is your position? 6894 1 MR. BAKER: I think my response will 2 be I don't have -- I can't answer that on an 3 individual, on an individual decision by me. It 4 should be done by the membership itself. 5 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I'm trying to 6 understand your position and make sure that the 7 Commission understands your position, as I 8 understand it, and let's just go through it. 9 You've indicated in your material that and I'm 10 quoting page 2, you say, "Chief Primrose is not 11 the Chief of South Indian Lake, and he does not 12 make plans for our community or speak for our 13 people. The duly elected Headman speaks on behalf 14 of the treaty people in South Indian Lake." That 15 is your submission on page 2 of your report. 16 Let's maybe just go through a couple of points, 17 can you confirm that 90 percent of the residents 18 at South Indian Lake are currently NCN members? 19 MR. BAKER: In the census from the 20 band membership clerk that is hired at the NCN 21 band office, says that, and so does the department 22 of Indian Affairs. 23 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: So what 24 percentage of the residents at South Indian Lake 25 do you say are currently NCN members? In other 6895 1 words, what percentage are on the NCN membership 2 list as far as you are concerned? 3 MR. BAKER: In a fair guesstimation? 4 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Yes. 5 MR. BAKER: As you said, 80 to 6 90 percent. 7 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: So we agree on 8 that part. 9 MR. BAKER: Yes, it is recorded on 10 that. But you can check the band list, you should 11 know that. 12 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I'm trying to 13 make sure, Chris, that we are on the same page as 14 far as that goes. That 80 to 90 percent of the 15 residents who live at South Indian Lake are NCN 16 members. 17 MR. BAKER: Technically. 18 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: And when you 19 say technically that is because you are also 20 saying that those same members are members of 21 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin, is that right? 22 MR. BAKER: My strong belief is this, 23 that I went through the history, and I know you 24 are aware of the history because we gave you the 25 history of our communities, both NCN and OPCN, but 6896 1 I believe that we were there way before treaty 2 even meant anything in this country, that is what 3 I talk about. That there was recognition, not 4 only by the Nisichawayasihk in support of that, 5 but there is also recognition right from the 6 Assembly of First Nations, the Assembly of 7 Manitoba Chiefs, the Manitoba Keewatinowi 8 Okimakanak. 9 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: We do 10 understand the submission with respect to the more 11 recent information about recognition. But going 12 back to the question that I asked you, if you 13 could respond to that. What percentage of 14 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin members are also currently NCN 15 members? 16 MR. BAKER: Well, I think that all of 17 the people have to make an informed decision. An 18 informed decision, and before that informed 19 decision is made the people need to know a lot 20 more about what -- this very complex situation we 21 are in is all about. 22 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Let me maybe 23 try and ask it of you this way. Is it your 24 position that the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin members, like 25 whoever you say are O-Pipon-Na-Piwin members, are 6897 1 those also, the majority of those members, are 2 they also NCN members, at the moment. Or are they 3 on the NCN membership list, Chris, if that is 4 easier for you. 5 MR. BAKER: I will say this. I'm 6 subject to it. 7 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I still -- 8 MR. BAKER: Because of the 9 amalgamations that took place at treaty, at the 10 time. No choice or no consultation or no nothing 11 from anybody that they knew for -- like Canada, 12 even NCN, the Chief and Council at the time, which 13 happened to be Pierre Moose, requested right from 14 the start that the people in South Indian Lake 15 wanted a separate band. I know what you are 16 saying, Val, and I understand that, as well as you 17 know, and you know the more detailed subject on 18 this. 19 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Chris, all I'm 20 trying to just ask you is not just about the 21 history that you have presented, but just 22 basically today, if we are looking at today, when 23 we are before this commission, the members of 24 OPCN, 90 percent of those members -- 25 MR. BAKER: Canada considers the 6898 1 majority of the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin as NCN members. 2 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Can you also 3 then tell us what percentage of O-Pipon-Na-Piwin 4 members are also CASIL members? 5 MR. BAKER: That is -- because of that 6 agreement there are not only treaty people there. 7 There are white people there, there are Metis, 8 there are non-status, there are other people from 9 different bands that were there before 1974, or 10 1973, and after that in 1976 when the flooding 11 started. And that was how that worked. 12 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Just in terms 13 of the question though, Chris, just to try and 14 help the Commission understand this, so what you 15 are indicating is that there were a number of 16 other groups who live in South Indian Lake who 17 make up the approximately 10 to 20 percent who are 18 not NCN members, now -- and those members, that 10 19 to 20 percent, are they CASIL members, the 20 majority of them? 21 MR. BAKER: Can you repeat that 22 please? 23 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I will go back 24 to my basic questions, what percentage of the 25 people you indicated as O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree 6899 1 Nation members are also CASIL members? 2 MR. BAKER: There is a distinction. 3 CASIL members through the community agreement 4 consultation, meetings, have agreed that CASIL 5 members are only residents of South Indian Lake. 6 OPCN members, on the other hand, and also NCN 7 members are outside of the community which are, as 8 I mentioned, in Winnipeg, Brandon, Thompson, Leaf 9 Rapids, some are even in Nova Scotia I think, and 10 some I know are in British Columbia. So they are 11 across -- and some are even in the states and some 12 have even gone to China. 13 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Can you just 14 confirm for us, that there is a significant 15 overlap between the three groups, the NCN members 16 who are living at South Indian Lake, the CASIL 17 members, and also the members you indicate are 18 part of O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation, they are 19 essentially the same people, is that correct? 20 MR. BAKER: No. 21 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: They are not. 22 So what are the differences then? 23 MR. BAKER: I just said that, I just 24 answered your question a minute ago, Valerie, I 25 just told you that there is specific determination 6900 1 of who is a CASIL member and who is a NCN member. 2 THE CHAIRMAN: I think, sorry, I think 3 you are not answering directly to the question. 4 And maybe they are not being made clearly enough. 5 Are there NCN members, and what percentage of the 6 NCN members are part of CASIL, roughly, ballpark? 7 MR. BAKER: Estimation -- about 85. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. That is one of 9 the answers. 10 MR. BAKER: Also that CASIL members 11 live in South Indian Lake, approximately, oh, 12 guesstimation or determination by a band clerk in 13 NCN and a determination also from the Department 14 of Indian Affairs, 30 percent of NCN members live 15 in South Indian Lake also. 16 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Sorry, I didn't 17 catch the percentage? 18 MR. BAKER: 30 percent of NCN live in 19 South Indian Lake. 20 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: And that 21 percentage, you know that there is some discussion 22 about that particular percentage as well? Like it 23 has ranged from 22 to 30 percent. 24 MR. BAKER: I thought it was 25 determined in the EIS, wasn't it? 6901 1 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Chris, you 2 know -- 3 MR. BAKER: If I remember right it was 4 determined in the EIS. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: That 22 percent? 6 MR. BAKER: 30 percent. 7 THE CHAIRMAN: 30 percent. 8 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: 22 to 9 30 percent. 10 MR. BAKER: No, it was 30, if I recall 11 right. I can be corrected. 12 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Can you just 13 confirm for the moment that O-Pipon-Na-Piwin -- 14 THE WITNESS: It would be on page 15 8-130 of the EIS. You can look it up. I'm sure 16 Mr. Osler would know, just turn around and ask 17 him. 18 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Mr. Baker, you 19 are also aware that there are other provisions 20 that have different percentages. In any event, 21 let's just go on. Can you also confirm that 22 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation currently does not 23 have its own separate elected Chief and Council? 24 MR. BAKER: I can say that we have a 25 custom that has been practiced to the best of my 6902 1 ability, my knowledge, and I have been there for 2 most of my life, that custom has been followed of 3 election. 4 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Who else is 5 elected then as the leadership of O-Pipon-Na-Piwin 6 Cree Nation besides yourself? 7 THE WITNESS: At this time? 8 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Yes. 9 MR. BAKER: Just myself. 10 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: So there is no 11 Chief and Council that is currently elected for 12 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation? 13 MR. BAKER: Well, let's go to the 14 history and chronology. 15 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: No, currently, 16 today. 17 MR. BAKER: I understand. But in 18 order for you to understand, Mr. Chairman, and the 19 audience, and the people that do not know the 20 history of the interpretations of what a Headman 21 is or what a Chief is and a council. It has to be 22 explained, sir to understand it fully. 23 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, brief. Just 24 explain that, what you want. 25 MR. BAKER: Pardon me? 6903 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead, explain it. 2 MR. BAKER: According to the history, 3 and it goes all of the way back to treaty 1 right 4 through to the adhesion of treaty 5, and if you 5 look at the records and if you study the 6 chronology, as some have done in this room, the 7 Headman were recognized as chiefs. Canada, in 8 their negotiations through developing the treaties 9 right from treaty 1 through to treaty 5, 6 and 10, 10 I don't know if 6 and 10 were subject to that, but 11 I know for sure that treaty 1 to 5 Headmen were 12 recognized as chiefs, and they were the ones that 13 signed the treaties as chiefs. That was in my 14 point of view, and that is only my personal point 15 of view, that was a borrowed name for our 16 leadership when we entered into treaty with 17 Canada. 18 In the text of treaty 1 it is 19 documented that the treaty commissioner requested 20 Indians and council, the Indians and council, "to 21 name certain chiefs and Headmen who should be 22 authorized on their behalf to conduct negotiations 23 and sign any treaty to be founded thereon." The 24 chiefs are identified by the Indians and the 25 treaty text states that the Indians identified, 6904 1 "as the Chiefs and Headmen for the purpose of or 2 for said other respective bands of Indians 3 inhabiting the said distinct hereinafter 4 described." Further in treaty text, "the 5 Lieutenant governor and the said commissioner then 6 and received and acknowledged the persons so 7 presented as Chiefs and Headmen for the purpose of 8 the aforesaid." Anyone who signs the treaty is 9 described as a Chief and the four chiefs are 10 described for the reserve and band that comes 11 through the river. 12 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Were you 13 reading from treaty one? I'm not sure what 14 document you were reading from for the reporter. 15 MR. BAKER: It is the text of treaty 16 1. 17 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Now, Chris, as 18 I understand it, when Pierre Moose signed the 19 adhesion to treaty 5, in 1908, he was signing 20 treaty 5, not treaty 1 on behalf of the 21 Nisichawayasihk people, is that not correct? Like 22 the treaty that he signed was treaty 5. 23 MR. BAKER: We obviously have a 24 different opinion of that. That isn't treaty 5, 25 that is an adhesion to treaty 5. 6905 1 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Do we agree 2 that treaty 5 is the relevant treaty that we are 3 talking about as it relates to your people and as 4 it relates to Nisichawayasihk? 5 MR. BAKER: If you want. 6 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I'm trying to 7 understand why you were quoting from treaty 1. So 8 it is treaty 5. 9 MR. BAKER: Yes. 10 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: As 11 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Headman you attend Chief and 12 Council meetings, is that correct? 13 THE WITNESS: As I'm required, yes. 14 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: As 15 O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Headman you also attend and have 16 attended future development meetings on the Notigi 17 and Wuskwatim projects, correct? 18 MR. BAKER: Very few. 19 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Since 1999 you 20 have attended a number of meetings, is that not 21 true? 22 MR. BAKER: Can you explain what you 23 mean by a number? 24 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Well -- 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Have you attended some 6906 1 meetings, she said. 2 MR. BAKER: Yes, I have. 3 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Okay -- before 4 I get to that, I want to confirm a couple of 5 things with respect to you personally. You are 6 currently a NCN member, is that correct? 7 MR. BAKER: That is what my status 8 card says. 9 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: And you also 10 are the Headman. Now is it your position that you 11 are the Headman for O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation? 12 MR. BAKER: According to the BCR, yes, 13 that gives me the mandate for the oath that I 14 took, yes. 15 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Are you also a 16 CASIL member? 17 MR. BAKER: Yes, I am. 18 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Are you also 19 then a member of O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation? 20 MR. BAKER: I have signed a letter of 21 intention to do that, yes. As required by the 22 department so that we know who our membership is 23 going to be. 24 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Okay. What I 25 would like to do now is just move on to where you 6907 1 referred to -- 2 MR. BAKER: I would also, just for the 3 record, like to interject that yes, even when I go 4 to the Assembly of First Nations, and I also go to 5 the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and when I go also 6 to represent the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree Nation at 7 Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak we are stated as 8 that. 9 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Maybe let's go 10 back to the 2002 election. That was the last 11 election when you were elected Headman, is that 12 correct, in 2002? 13 MR. BAKER: Yes. 14 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: At that time 15 can you also confirm that all NCN members, not 16 just those who live at South Indian Lake, were 17 entitled to vote on your position as Headman or 18 vote for your election as Headman? 19 MR. BAKER: We have to comply with the 20 John Corby decision. I have to remind you and I 21 stated earlier that I requested a separate 22 election process for the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin Cree 23 Nation in South Indian Lake. And you are part of 24 that too, Valerie, and you were asked for your 25 opinion. 6908 1 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Yes. 2 MR. BAKER: Your legal opinion on 3 that. 4 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Let's confirm 5 what happened in 2002. So Chief and Council 6 elections were held at the same time as the 7 election for the Headman, is that right? 8 MR. BAKER: Pardon me, I'm sorry? 9 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I was just 10 asking you to confirm for the record and for the 11 Commission, because it is not just what I know, we 12 have to confirm this for the record. So in terms 13 of 2002, can you just confirm for us that Chief 14 and Council elections were held at the same time 15 as the Headman election? 16 MR. BAKER: Yes. And also, just for 17 the record, the NCN wanted their election code for 18 the Headman election, yeah. And, you know, it 19 didn't even have provisions for the election of 20 Headman for South Indian Lake in that election 21 code, in the NCN election code. I wanted to 22 develop our own, and we requested that I think 23 from the mayor and council at one point in time 24 before we even had -- you can recall that, I think 25 you were part of that, Val, is that I requested a 6909 1 specific detailed election process for the Headman 2 in South Indian Lake for the O-Pipon-Na-Piwin. 3 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Okay. Chris, 4 just in terms of the 2000 election, I just have 5 one simple question about that, and it is really 6 just that all NCN members, whether they lived on 7 or off reserve, were entitled to vote for chief 8 and council and for the Headman during that same 9 election, is that correct? 10 MR. BAKER: That's correct. 11 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Now what I 12 would like to do is move on to deal with the 13 issues, the socioeconomic issues that you have 14 referred to in your presentation. And what I 15 would like to do, you have used the phrase 16 socioeconomic issues throughout the presentation, 17 and what I would like to do is confirm what you 18 mean by socioeconomic issues. And what I will do 19 is go through a number of factors. I will ask you 20 whether those are part of the socioeconomic issues 21 that you are referring to. 22 MR. BAKER: Can I just ask that you go 23 slow. 24 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Sure. If I'm 25 going too fast for you at any time, just slow me 6910 1 down. 2 MR. BAKER: Thank you. 3 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I guess we are 4 past the time the Commission indicated. 5 THE CHAIRMAN: One of the persons that 6 has the constraints is yourself, so I figured as 7 long as you carried on -- 8 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I could 9 probably manage another 15 minutes or so, but I 10 don't know what the Commission can do. I'm not 11 going to get finished, I can say that. It is 12 unlikely that I will be finished in 15 minutes. 13 MS. AVERY KINEW: You are going to ask 14 him what socioeconomic issues are when we just 15 heard this whole presentation of what he considers 16 to be socioeconomic issues? 17 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I think I'm 18 entitled to, with respect, make sure that I 19 clarify what those issues are and that we have a 20 common understanding and that is what I would like 21 to be able to do. 22 MR. BAKER: Also, just what Ms. Avery 23 Kinew said, has already been verified and it has 24 already been clarified by the proponents 25 consultants, Mr. Osler and his group of 6911 1 consultants. I mean, if you can't verify that 2 with the expertise that has been put forward here 3 by your consultants that went through the exercise 4 of doing so, and you need me to verify their work, 5 I don't know, I would suggest that you get some 6 new consultants. 7 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: With respect, I 8 did get this report only about an hour and a half 9 ago, and it is the first time I have seen it, and 10 therefore on behalf our clients we certainly want 11 to be able to ask some questions about it. 12 MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman, in respect, 13 I need to remind Mrs. Matthews Lemieux that we are 14 not supported intervenors, and we are not required 15 to submit, as the other paid participants are. 16 THE CHAIRMAN: That is a point. 17 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Regardless, I 18 am still, I would suggest, on behalf of our 19 clients entitled to be able to ask questions and I 20 would like the opportunity to do that. 21 THE CHAIRMAN: Proceed. 22 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Thank you. In 23 terms of socioeconomic issues then, can you 24 confirm that demographic information would be 25 included within socioeconomic issues from your 6912 1 perspective? 2 MR. BAKER: As I read through the 3 sections, or volumes 7 and 8, obviously there was 4 a certain consideration, but not the full 5 demographics of our culture, our economics, our 6 jobs, how we live, what we value, how we see 7 things. 8 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Can you just 9 confirm for me that some of that demographic 10 information that you would be seeking to see 11 included would include information about the age, 12 gender, family status, education level, household 13 information about employment status and income for 14 the people who live in South Indian Lake? 15 MR. BAKER: That is a lengthy process, 16 I mean we have been at this for what, since you 17 said it was started in '99 -- 18 THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Baker, the question 19 is do you consider those things to be part of the 20 socioeconomic. So the question calls for you to 21 confirm or deny. 22 MR. BAKER: Yes. 23 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Can you also 24 then confirm that socioeconomic issues from your 25 perspective would include views about the concerns 6913 1 and benefits that might arise from the Wuskwatim 2 project? 3 MR. BAKER: Pardon me? 4 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Can you confirm 5 that socioeconomic issues, as you've referred to 6 them in your submission, would also include views 7 of the people who live at South Indian Lake about 8 any concerns they may have about the Wuskwatim 9 project, as well as any benefits they may see from 10 the Wuskwatim project? 11 MR. BAKER: Yes. 12 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Can you also 13 confirm that it would be important to include or 14 review an examination of environmental factors? 15 MR. BAKER: Pardon me? 16 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Is it also 17 important from your perspective to include, in 18 terms of socioeconomic issues, various 19 environmental factors? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: And would some 22 of those environmental factors include protecting 23 the quality of water? 24 MR. BAKER: Definitely. 25 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: What about 6914 1 shoreline clearing and debris management? 2 MR. BAKER: It depends on which shore 3 you are going to clear and which way the wind 4 blows and how that is set at in our resource area. 5 I can take you to some places where I wouldn't 6 recommend shoreline debris management because the 7 erosion of that, causing that, is too great. 8 Because, for example, I personally have seen, when 9 I'm driving in my boat and motor with my children, 10 islands literally floating. 11 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: All I'm asking, 12 Chris, at this point is for you to confirm or 13 reject what I'm saying, that it would be an 14 important factor to consider. 15 MR. BAKER: That is not a closed 16 answer, Valerie, I'm sorry. If anybody in this 17 room has ever seen Southern Indian Lake, they 18 would support me on that. 19 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: But it is a 20 factor that should be at least raised, is that 21 correct? You would agree that -- 22 MR. BAKER: I think we are all 23 responsible for the environment. So, yes, it is 24 important. 25 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Thank you, what 6915 1 about monitoring the effects of the Wuskwatim 2 project, is that an important issue to consider? 3 MR. BAKER: What are we going to 4 monitor -- 5 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: When I say 6 consider, I mean, all of the time, to consider the 7 views of the people who live at South Indian Lake. 8 MR. BAKER: Can you explain that a 9 little further, Valerie, please? 10 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Do you think it 11 is important that the views of the people at South 12 Indian Lake is one of the factors that should be 13 considered as what they think, or whether they 14 think it is important to monitor? 15 MR. BAKER: I think that was one of my 16 recommendations. 17 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: So you would 18 agree that is an important factor? 19 MR. BAKER: Obviously. 20 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: What about 21 protecting navigation and safety? 22 MR. BAKER: Yes. 23 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: What about 24 maintaining the beauty of the environment? 25 MR. BAKER: Of course. 6916 1 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: What about 2 minimizing flooding, steps to take to minimize 3 flooding? 4 MR. BAKER: I don't know if there is a 5 real way of minimizing flooding. If there is, I 6 sure would like to see it. 7 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: But that would 8 be an issue that you would agree would be 9 important if it could be done? 10 MR. BAKER: If it could be done, yes. 11 If it could be done, Valerie. I'm not in 12 agreement with it, because in my experience I have 13 never seen it yet. 14 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Chris, you have 15 been involved in the discussions on future 16 development and you do know that the Wuskwatim 17 project, when it was originally discussed, was a 18 high head, or a high head design and it has been 19 reduced. 20 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't there at 21 the time. 22 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: But you do know 23 that since, that it was a low head design that has 24 been chosen? 25 MR. BAKER: It doesn't matter if it is 6917 1 low head or high head, the effects are the 2 effects. 3 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: But you would 4 agree it is an important factor to consider, and 5 that is minimizing flooding? 6 MR. BAKER: I don't agree with 7 flooding at all, because it doesn't do things. 8 Like, I mean, you know, it is hard, that is a very 9 difficult question. 10 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: In terms of, 11 and I'm still going through the various factors. 12 Another factor that would be important to consider 13 the views of SIL, the people living at South 14 Indian Lake would be protecting important sites, 15 is that correct? And these are effects from the 16 Wuskwatim project that we are discussing. 17 MR. BAKER: I'm thinking about what 18 you said before. I'm sorry. Can you repeat that? 19 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Is another 20 factor that is important, another important 21 environmental factor to consider the views of 22 people living at South Indian Lake, is the 23 protection of important sites? 24 MR. BAKER: Yes. 25 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Now, when you 6918 1 are dealing with environmental factors, is it also 2 important to consider -- 3 MR. BAKER: Environmental factors, can 4 you explain that more in detail, because as I 5 understand environmental factors, and maybe you 6 have a different interpretation of that, because I 7 have read different interpretations of 8 environmental issues. 9 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: What I'm going 10 to do is ask you to see if you agree with me or 11 disagree that these would be environmental factors 12 that would be important to try and obtain the 13 views of SIL members about. First one would be 14 protecting big game animals? 15 MR. BAKER: Such as? 16 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Such as moose. 17 THE CHAIRMAN: All big game animals. 18 MR. BAKER: Is that bears, is that -- 19 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I'm asking you, 20 do you think that is important? Let's use the 21 example of moose as a big game animal, moose, 22 caribou? 23 MR. BAKER: Yes. 24 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: What about 25 examining the impact of the project on fish? 6919 1 MR. BAKER: I think on the latter 2 question that you had, I think that this whole 3 part of it I think has to be more in detail and 4 more analyzed further with the effects. And our 5 presentation showed that an insufficient analysis 6 was done -- wasn't done to establish a baseline. 7 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: In terms of 8 these issues that I'm raising with you, you are 9 familiar with the fact that there was an opinion 10 survey of NCN members living at South Indian Lake 11 that was conducted, correct? 12 THE WITNESS: Pardon me? 13 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: You are 14 familiar -- you are aware there was an opinion 15 survey conducted of the NCN members living at 16 South Indian Lake separate from any other NCN 17 members, right? 18 MR. BAKER: Yes. 19 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: And all of 20 these issues, if Mr. Graham -- has he handed a 21 copy to you right now? 22 MR. BAKER: We could. 23 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: The 24 December 2001 survey results. 25 MR. BAKER: Well, in my presentation 6920 1 you already know what the opinions, surveyed 2 results were in South Indian Lake. 3 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: If you have got 4 the opinion survey in front of you, you will -- do 5 you have it in front of you right now? 6 MR. BAKER: Yes. 7 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: And if you 8 could just look at -- 9 MR. BAKER: Also you have to remind 10 yourself too, opinions have to be supported by 11 analysis. 12 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: And that is 13 what this document -- 14 MR. BAKER: And it wasn't sufficient 15 in my point of view. 16 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Okay. So you 17 take issue with the opinion survey itself? 18 MR. BAKER: I don't take opinion of 19 that. In order for you to understand or to relay 20 or get feedback, it must be thorough. There must 21 be a thorough analysis of what you are surveying 22 in order to get the true picture. And it is not 23 only views, Valerie, and it is not only opinions, 24 those are facts that need to be analyzed, may they 25 be scientifically or traditionally, traditional 6921 1 knowledge, and that is how that was done and 2 conducted in NCN. 3 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: In terms of 4 the -- 5 MR. BAKER: And there was even 6 controversial opinion of that. 7 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I know 8 everybody is wanting to get going, it is the end 9 of the day. But looking at this, if you could 10 turn to, there is section 3 in this survey, that 11 dealt with the profile of the respondents. It 12 goes through age, family status, household income, 13 employment status, education levels. 14 MR. BAKER: I think there was 153 15 people or somewhere, maybe -- 16 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Households. 17 MR. BAKER: No, people that were in 18 the households. 19 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: If there are 20 issues about the survey methodology, we can 21 certainly go through that. 22 MR. BAKER: Are you wanting me to say 23 you did 143 households and how many houses are 24 there in South Indian Lake? Is that your leading 25 question? If that is, Valerie, just get to it, 6922 1 okay. 2 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I will, Chris. 3 MR. BAKER: Please. 4 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: This survey 5 went through and asked a number of questions about 6 the importance of environmental factors to NCN 7 members living at South Indian Lake, the 8 importance of plant and animal factors, the 9 importance of human factors, the importance of 10 personal factors, the importance of NCN ownership 11 of the Wuskwatim project, reasons for project 12 ownership being important, trust about Manitoba 13 Hydro, or trust of Manitoba Hydro, suggestions 14 about how to regain trust in Manitoba Hydro. It 15 talked about possibility of relocation, employment 16 opportunities, post construction employment 17 opportunities, and a whole range of other issues 18 where it was only the NCN members living at South 19 Indian Lake who were surveyed. And all of that 20 information, I suggest to you, was included in the 21 EIS. 22 MR. BAKER: Not fully. 23 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: So you don't 24 think that this information was included in the 25 EIS? 6923 1 MR. BAKER: Views are different. I 2 must state that. Views are different than 3 analysis. You must, I repeat, you must do an 4 analysis in order to come to a conclusion and in 5 my opinion, and that is my personal opinion, no, 6 it wasn't fully implemented or fully -- there was 7 no full consultation on it. 8 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Will you agree 9 with me that there was at least the information 10 that I've referred to, that was included in the 11 EIS, is that correct? Do you agree that 12 information about these issues, as it relates to 13 the views of NCN members living at South Indian 14 Lake, was included? 15 MR. BAKER: Yes. 16 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Is that a yes? 17 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes he said. 18 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Thank you. Now 19 have you seen the DAL report that we have received 20 on Monday of this week? 21 MR. BAKER: Yes. 22 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: And you are 23 aware that Mr. Duncan was retained as the 24 independent expert on behalf of the South Indian 25 Lake to review the EIS, is that correct? 6924 1 MR. BAKER: I think he reviewed the 2 hydraulics, I believe. The effects of the water 3 is what, if I remember right. But we also 4 requested, let's see, February 5th, 2003, and 5 Elvis was there, Councillor Thomas was there, I 6 think you were there, I forget who else was there, 7 but I know there was a lot of you there, the whole 8 Chief and Council was there. 9 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Can we just 10 deal with the DAL report for a few minutes? 11 MR. BAKER: I am dealing with it. 12 THE CHAIRMAN: It is six o'clock, 13 Mrs. Matthews Lemieux. 14 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I wanted to ask 15 you a specific question about the report, if we 16 could do that. On page 10 of the report under the 17 heading of conclusions and recommendations, last 18 sentence of the first paragraph, it indicates that 19 due to the hydraulics of Early Morning Rapids, the 20 back water that will be created by the Wuskwatim 21 forebay will not extend any further upstream than 22 this location, and this location it is referring 23 to the area of the Burntwood River between 24 Taskinigup Falls and Early Morning Rapids, in 25 either the open water or winter seasons. Do you 6925 1 see that there? 2 MR. BAKER: What page are you on? 3 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Page 10, first 4 paragraph. 5 MR. BAKER: At the end it says here, 6 it says here that the EIS does not describe the 7 areas -- 8 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Chris, that is 9 not the one that I'm asking to you look. 10 MR. BAKER: The present operation of 11 the CRD. 12 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Can you go to 13 the first paragraph, page 10? 14 MR. BAKER: That is where we are at. 15 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Do you see what 16 he says, last sentence, that there will be no 17 effect beyond Early Morning Rapids? 18 MR. BAKER: But we are talking about 19 the socioeconomic effects, in my presentation 20 anyway. 21 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Do you accept 22 that there will be no hydraulic effect beyond 23 Early Morning Rapids, do you accept that? 24 MR. BAKER: No, I can't. 25 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: You can't, 6926 1 okay. 2 MR. BAKER: Because my elders, and I 3 have to rely on their knowledge, have told me that 4 that is not possible. And they have lived a heck 5 of a lot longer than I have. And they are 6 resource users and have been sustaining themselves 7 from the land for as long as I can remember. 8 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Can you just 9 confirm that Mr. Duncan was chosen by South Indian 10 Lake as their independent expert to review the 11 EIS? 12 MR. BAKER: Yes. 13 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: Thank you. I 14 still have some more questions, so I guess -- 15 MR. BAKER: You must have a different 16 copy. 17 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I have the copy 18 that was provided to me by CASIL, I guess by DAL. 19 MR. BAKER: Okay. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: The report which was 21 tabled over the weekend, we were told. 22 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: For the record, 23 the one that I'm referring to is the one that's 24 been filed in these proceedings as CASIL 1011. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Matthews Lemieux, 6927 1 did you have any more questions that you wish to 2 ask of this witness? 3 MS. MATTHEWS-LEMIEUX: I do have some 4 more, and I certainly want to consider this, but 5 obviously we have run out of time for today, so we 6 want to reserve our right to request that Mr. 7 Baker come back. 8 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes. Mr. Baker, we 9 will contact you. We will be asking of you at 10 which time you will be available to come back 11 either on the 7th or 8th of June, or tomorrow 12 morning. 13 MR. BAKER: Okay. Tomorrow. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: Tomorrow morning. 15 Thank you. 16 MR. GREWAR: Mr. Chairman, so we are 17 clear, the cross-examination of OPCN will begin at 18 9:00 a.m. tomorrow morning as the first order of 19 business. 20 THE CHAIRMAN: That's correct. 21 MR. GREWAR: And that will likely 22 replace the re-examination which will now occur in 23 June. We are sure on that? Just so that 24 everybody knows what they need to have prepared 25 for tomorrow. 6928 1 THE CHAIRMAN: That will depend on how 2 much time we spend on that tomorrow. Be prepared 3 for it. We have to adjourn by 4:30 tomorrow, so 4 you may be right on that. 5 MR. GREWAR: I think so, Mr. Chairman. 6 In fairness, I think Hydro and NCN would suspect 7 they would take longer than a hour and a half to 8 conclude their re-examination. Is that the case? 9 In which time, Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that 10 we would have time to accomplish the 11 cross-examination of OPCN plus the re-examination 12 and still accommodate the presenters that we have 13 scheduled. 14 THE CHAIRMAN: After hearing your wise 15 comments, I agree with you. 16 17 (Adjourned at 6:10 p.m.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25